Marantz and Denon no longer use Toroidal power in their high end AVRs?

D

Dizzyboy

Enthusiast
Disappointed to see that Marantz are no longer using toroidal transformers in their receivers, and nor are Denon. I've been thinking about replacing my SR8002 but the 2015 flagships make me worry that I'd be experiencing a sonic step down from what I've already got.

Is there a reason they're going without toroidal power now? It seems that the only way to get it in 2015 would be to go via costly separates (the stunning AV8802 etc).

I absolutely love the sound of my SR8002 and am only looking to upgrade for the sake of 3D and 4K pass-through, network / streaming, Atmos etc.

Does anyone know how the Toroidal-free Marantz SR7010 or the Denon AVR-X7200W would sound compared to an SR8002?
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
You know, you could just get middle of road modern D&M AVR and use it as pre-pro and keep your 8002 on amp duty...
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Toroidal transformer is not always better, it depends on other factors. Everything else being equal, it does offer some advantages (e.g. less weight, losses) in audio amp applications but then not necessary translate into audible difference. IMO most likely not. There are also high end gear that don't use toroidal transformers.

http://www.soundstage.com/maxdb/maxdb071998.htm
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
This is hardly a scientific study, but among the amps I have, the EI transformers have much less (or no!) transformer hum.

Has anyone else experienced this tendency?
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
Toroidal transformer is not always better, it depends on other factors. Everything else being equal, it does offer some advantages (e.g. less weight, losses) in audio amp applications but then not necessary translate into audible difference. IMO most likely not. There are also high end gear that don't use toroidal transformers.

http://www.soundstage.com/maxdb/maxdb071998.htm
+1
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
This is hardly a scientific study, but among the amps I have, the EI transformers have much less (or no!) transformer hum.

Has anyone else experienced this tendency?
Yup, it seems to me that the EI style tends to have less mechanical hum. But, the toroidals have less stray EMI noise.

The bottom line is that I would absolutely NOT base my decision on the style of transformer. It just isn't THAT important to the overall end result.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Disappointed to see that Marantz are no longer using toroidal transformers in their receivers, and nor are Denon. I've been thinking about replacing my SR8002 but the 2015 flagships make me worry that I'd be experiencing a sonic step down from what I've already got.

Is there a reason they're going without toroidal power now? It seems that the only way to get it in 2015 would be to go via costly separates (the stunning AV8802 etc).

I absolutely love the sound of my SR8002 and am only looking to upgrade for the sake of 3D and 4K pass-through, network / streaming, Atmos etc.

Does anyone know how the Toroidal-free Marantz SR7010 or the Denon AVR-X7200W would sound compared to an SR8002?
The type of transformer used has NOTHING to do with sound quality.

The only thing that matters is that the transformer be big enough to not saturate and or burn out, not make audible mechanical noises and not radiate induced hum to other components. The shape is irrelevant.

Probably the highest quality transformers ever, were made by the British Partridge company. None of them were toroidal any yet they are still highly revered.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
If the new transformers don't "SOUND" as good as the old transformers, there is exactly ZERO percent chance that Denon/Marantz would use it.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
If the new transformers don't "SOUND" as good as the old transformers, there is exactly ZERO percent chance that Denon/Marantz would use it.
As I said, power transformers do not have a sound. They are not in the signal path!
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
This is hardly a scientific study, but among the amps I have, the EI transformers have much less (or no!) transformer hum.

Has anyone else experienced this tendency?
My 4BSST and A21 hum a little louder than all my Denon AVRs that are EI.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I used to agree with the "Guy" 50% of the time but now it has been more like 80%, not exactly 100% yet.:D
Well, I was referring to this thread regarding transformers. :D

Of course, I can't agree with anyone 100%. :D
 
D

Dizzyboy

Enthusiast
Thanks, everyone. That's a huge relief to know. I take it I can buy an SR7010 with confidence that it will sound similar to my SR8002?

I'm a bit tempted to keep my SR8002 as an amp and buy a lower end pre-pro, but I'm not nuts about the increased power usage that would ensue, and for the room size I'm dealing with, it would kind of be overkill.

Does anyone know why Marantz still use Toroidals in their top-of-the-line pre-amps?

One last question: reading the various documentation online, it appears that the new top-end AVR's from Marantz and Denon no longer seem to offer manual lip sync correction, which my SR8002 has. Is that correct, or is it simply not specified? I've only needed to use it a handful of times, but it's a wonderful feature to have available in those rare moments of need.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Thanks, everyone. That's a huge relief to know. I take it I can buy an SR7010 with confidence that it will sound similar to my SR8002?
The SR7010 should theoretically sound better though I believe in practice you will have hard time telling them apart in pure direct mode.

I'm a bit tempted to keep my SR8002 as an amp and buy a lower end pre-pro, but I'm not nuts about the increased power usage that would ensue, and for the room size I'm dealing with, it would kind of be overkill.
The AVR is not designed for use as an amp. You can do it but the effort involved will be awkward, and sorry, could borderline on looking stupid.

Does anyone know why Marantz still use Toroidals in their top-of-the-line pre-amps?
Unless you have a direct line to the design team you are not going get the real answer. My guess is that it is a 90% marketing driven as it allows them to increase their margin by listing the theoretical advantages of toroidal transformer that they know full well won't translate into audible difference. As I mentioned before, weight is also a factor, notice that the 8002 is almost 10 lbs lighter than the Denon AVR4308 and 5 to 6 lbs lighter than the AVR3808.

If you compare the equivalent Denon units, such as the Denon AVR-3808 or the 4308 (half a notch above the 8002), the Marantz did not do better on the bench, probably worse actually in areas such as THD+N, SN, cross talk etc.

Below are from Sound and Vision review bench tests:

SR8002

Response from the multichannel input to the speaker output measures –2.21 decibels at 10 hertz, –0.69 dB at 20 Hz, –0.09 dB at 20 kilohertz, and –0.54 dB at 50 kHz. THD+N from the CD input to the speaker output was less than 0.017 percent at 1 kHz when driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load. Crosstalk at 1 kHz driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load was –79.92 dB left to right and –78.19 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with 2.83 volts driving an 8-ohm load from 10 Hz to 24 kHz with “A” weighting was –95.25 dBrA.
Read more at http://www.soundandvision.com/content/marantz-sr8002-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures#ZHewlM1k0Cy0IhhD.99

AVR3808

Response from the multichannel input to the speaker output measures –0.08 decibels at 10 hertz, –0.02 dB at 20 Hz, +0.03 dB at 20 kilohertz, and –2.83 dB at 50 kHz. THD+N from the CD input to the speaker output was less than 0.004 percent at 1 kHz when driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load. Crosstalk at 1 kHz driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load was –87.53 dB left to right and –87.69 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with 2.83 volts driving an 8-ohm load from 10 Hz to 24 kHz with “A” weighting was –106.09 dBrA.
Read more at http://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-3808ci-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures#vCcfqRPfPbtqufRh.99


You can see why some of us tend to argue for Denon because of their better performance to price ratio. Denon seems to know how to shield their delicate amplification stages effectively without the use of toroidal transformers. They only use toroids in their 5XXX series AVRs.[/QUOTE]

If you prefer the look of Marantz, go for it, otherwise I suggest you consider the lower priced Denon X4200W or pay the same or more for the X6200W or X7200W. I am confident the 7200 is comparable to the AV8802 when used as a prepro.

One last question: reading the various documentation online, it appears that the new top-end AVR's from Marantz and Denon no longer seem to offer manual lip sync correction, which my SR8002 has. Is that correct, or is it simply not specified? I've only needed to use it a handful of times, but it's a wonderful feature to have available in those rare moments of need.
I am not sure I understand you question. If you turn off auto lip sync you can adjust audio delay up to 200ms. Is that what you refer to as manual lip sync correction?
 
Last edited:
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
If you have ever priced EI vs Toroids, they cost about the same. EI may be just slightly cheaper for a similar spec, but not by much.

One other advantage of a toroid is that it is fairly easy to add some turns! No consumer would do that, but DIY guys do it all the time. You could have a toroid secondary feeding your power amps unregulated linear supply, then add some secondaries and have that feeding the regulated supply on the preamp.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
If you have ever priced EI vs Toroids, they cost about the same. EI may be just slightly cheaper for a similar spec, but not by much.

One other advantage of a toroid is that it is fairly easy to add some turns! No consumer would do that, but DIY guys do it all the time. You could have a toroid secondary feeding your power amps unregulated linear supply, then add some secondaries and have that feeding the regulated supply on the preamp.
For the purist audiophile though, I would guess its mainly the less stray flux and noise that they are after. From practical stand point, if physical size and weight are important I would pay a little more to get a good quality toroidal. The funny thing is, of all the gear I have, its the EI ones that are the quietest. However, among my 4 Marantz (pre and power) amps, the two with the toroidal are at least quieter than the other two that have the EIs.
 

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