that dreaded center speaker

[big O]

hi, ive seen all the facts about why a center speaker is "always" better than a phantom center channel. it avoids combing,lobing etc. and anchors the sound to the screen,etc. yet, every single time i try a centers speaker, i find the sound to be much smaller, less smooth, and far less natural than with a phantom center.
this has been an ongoing battle for many months now- ive tried four different center speakers and many different configurations.

so here is my question to approach this from a different angle- is there any science out there that may support why I am finding the phantom center to be far more pleasing than an actual center speaker?

im thinking along the lines of the science behind why two subwoofers sound better than one- could this also be why a phantom center could sound better than one speaker? smoothing out the response- reducing room modes?

here is my latest experiment. THREE identical speakers- paradigm atom v3s- one for the left, one for center, and one for right. distance between left and right is approx 6 feet, and the center was in the middle, either below the tv or above the tv.

my thinking was that the reason the center has never sounded good was because i was not using identical speakers-so i changed that. well, what would you know- center speaker still sounds small, boxy,weird, but sum the center to left and right to create a phantom and voila - smooth, natural,lush -same exact speakers being used, no eq.

so, im done with the center speaker for good i just want to somehow see if there is science that jives what im hearing with some theory.

 

[lsiberian]

How far are you sitting from the speakers?
How far is your seating distance?
Can you go wider with the L-R channel?
Was the tweeter aimed at listening height?

A center properly setup does improve the listening experience for movies and TV in my experience. Try using some EQ it's possible you have a room issue between your center and your listening position. Many put their center directly against the wall which is terrible for sounds quality even a couple feet make a noticeable difference.

 

[TLS Guy]

hi, ive seen all the facts about why a center speaker is "always" better than a phantom center channel. it avoids combing,lobing etc. and anchors the sound to the screen,etc. yet, every single time i try a centers speaker, i find the sound to be much smaller, less smooth, and far less natural than with a phantom center.
this has been an ongoing battle for many months now- ive tried four different center speakers and many different configurations.

so here is my question to approach this from a different angle- is there any science out there that may support why I am finding the phantom center to be far more pleasing than an actual center speaker?

im thinking along the lines of the science behind why two subwoofers sound better than one- could this also be why a phantom center could sound better than one speaker? smoothing out the response- reducing room modes?

here is my latest experiment. THREE identical speakers- paradigm atom v3s- one for the left, one for center, and one for right. distance between left and right is approx 6 feet, and the center was in the middle, either below the tv or above the tv.

my thinking was that the reason the center has never sounded good was because i was not using identical speakers-so i changed that. well, what would you know- center speaker still sounds small, boxy,weird, but sum the center to left and right to create a phantom and voila - smooth, natural,lush -same exact speakers being used, no eq.

so, im done with the center speaker for good i just want to somehow see if there is science that jives what im hearing with some theory.

A big problem is your speakers being far too close together. The speakers will be only three feet apart and you will therefore have comb filtering well in the speech discrimination band.

Optimal spacing for left and right speakers is 8 to 12 feet depending on room size. I like 12 feet optimally.

There is nothing wrong with a phantom center. One of my rooms does not have a center speaker and sound is excellent. Image is dead center even away form the central position.

The center speaker is overrated up to a point.

I will say this, a bad center is worse than no center and most center speakers are poor.

I found the center speaker by far the hardest to design. My researches contrary to popular wisdom showed that identical speakers across the front is not optimal.

The best solution in my view for a center speaker is a good coaxial design or a full range driver design. The problem with the latter is that good full range drivers are far and few between.

It is not necessary for the drivers to be identical, but it probably is important that the speakers are designed as an integrated package. I don't think there are any commercial options in that regard. It is however possible to design an integrated front stage based on those principles.

I don't think I have ever visited a dealers showroom and not have the center speaker really bug me, to the extent I could not live with it.

 

[big O]

A center properly setup does improve the listening experience for movies and TV in my experience. Try using some EQ it's possible you have a room issue between your center and your listening position. Many put their center directly against the wall which is terrible for sounds quality even a couple feet make a noticeable difference.

i think the problem might be the mono speaker itself. ie,say im listening to music in stereo. if i convert it to a processing mode that puts the vocals to the center channel, it immediately sounds unnatural. put it back to stereo and it sounds natural again.

could this be why even monophiles who love to listen to mono recordings still mostly prefer dual mono? ie the same signal being played through two speakers instead of one.

this is highly interesting.

oh,btw, ive used eq- 11 bands fully adjustable, programmed in rew- it still doesnt sound near as good as two channels

 

[big O]

A big problem is your speakers being far too close together. The speakers will be only three feet apart and you will therefore have comb filtering well in the speech discrimination band.

Optimal spacing for left and right speakers is 8 to 12 feet depending on room size. I like 12 feet optimally.

There is nothing wrong with a phantom center. One of my rooms does not have a center speaker and sound is excellent. Image is dead center even away form the central position.

The center speaker is overrated up to a point.

I will say this, a bad center is worse than no center and most center speakers are poor.

I found the center speaker by far the hardest to design. My researches contrary to popular wisdom showed that identical speakers across the front is not optimal.

The best solution in my view for a center speaker is a good coaxial design or a full range driver design. The problem with the latter is that good full range drivers are far and few between.

It is not necessary for the drivers to be identical, but it probably is important that the speakers are designed as an integrated package. I don't think there are any commercial options in that regard. It is however possible to design an integrated front stage based on those principles.

I don't think I have ever visited a dealers showroom and not have the center speaker really bug me, to the extent I could not live with it.

hi,thanks for posting. it sounds like you mostly agree with what ive found?

i just measured and the speakers are 7.8 feet roughly apart with me sitting roughly 9.8 feet away. listening to music it sounds amazing and my ears cant hear any comb filtering.

another interesting point is that the sound seems even more anchored to the screen if that were possible. with the single center speaker, its very easy to localize the source, whereas its not so easy(possibly impossible) to localize the source with the phantom center

im interested in your comment that most center speakers are poor. so I have the center speaker for the atoms. even the review said it was harsh- it uses the same drivers as the atom.
when I had a klipsch system- the center channel rc52, also sounded different and unnatural. so I wonder if this is because of the box design -they use the same speakers - or just the fact that the mono speaker just sounds unnatural to our ears?

im also curious about your comment on center speakers not being identical- what have you found to be optimal?

thanks

 

[TLS Guy]

hi,thanks for posting. it sounds like you mostly agree with what ive found?

i just measured and the speakers are 7.8 feet roughly apart with me sitting roughly 9.8 feet away. listening to music it sounds amazing and my ears cant hear any comb filtering.

another interesting point is that the sound seems even more anchored to the screen if that were possible. with the single center speaker, its very easy to localize the source, whereas its not so easy(possibly impossible) to localize the source with the phantom center

im interested in your comment that most center speakers are poor. so I have the center speaker for the atoms. even the review said it was harsh- it uses the same drivers as the atom.
when I had a klipsch system- the center channel rc52, also sounded different and unnatural. so I wonder if this is because of the box design -they use the same speakers - or just the fact that the mono speaker just sounds unnatural to our ears?

im also curious about your comment on center speakers not being identical- what have you found to be optimal?

thanks

The problem is that most center speakers are horizontal. In other words MTM designs turned in their side. This can never work.

The other issue is that a center speaker is not mono, unless the only speaker in use, but a member of a multi channel speaker array.

Now using a center speaker in an algorithm mode playing music recorded as two channel will give variable results. In general for close multi miked pop music the result will be awful.

However for ambient recordings made with far field mike techniques the results can be rewarding. This is because there is less microphone bleeding and the antiphase ambient envelope is properly preserved and an algorithm like Dolby PL 2x can do its job.

However to really judge the center you need at least a discrete three channel recording.

Unfortunately for most domestic rooms, the center ends up being too close to the left and right speakers. Apart from being very coherent, a well designed coaxial speaker fits the bill. The bass cone acts as a nice wave guide producing a cone radiating pattern over the listening area, and minimizing interference with the left and right speakers. In my view it has the optimal radiation pattern free of lobing errors required for the task.

One last point. I actually prefer listening to mono recordings from my center speaker alone. I prefer that to dual mono.

 

[big O]

The problem is that most center speakers are horizontal. In other words MTM designs turned in their side. This can never work.

The other issue is that a center speaker is not mono, unless the only speaker in use, but a member of a multi channel speaker array.

Now using a center speaker in an algorithm mode playing music recorded as two channel will give variable results. In general for close multi miked pop music the result will be awful.

However for ambient recordings made with far field mike techniques the results can be rewarding. This is because there is less microphone bleeding and the antiphase ambient envelope is properly preserved and an algorithm like Dolby PL 2x can do its job.

However to really judge the center you need at least a discrete three channel recording.

Unfortunately for most domestic rooms, the center ends up being too close to the left and right speakers. Apart from being very coherent, a well designed coaxial speaker fits the bill. The bass cone acts as a nice wave guide producing a cone radiating pattern over the listening area, and minimizing interference with the left and right speakers. In my view it has the optimal radiation pattern free of lobing errors required for the task.

One last point. I actually prefer listening to mono recordings from my center speaker alone. I prefer that to dual mono.

agree on the horizontal - but I also tested the paradigm center vertical. still sounded small. also the atom was vertical- still sounded small.

when i say mono what i mean is that movies have the dialogue ( and a lot of other content) hard panned to that center speaker, with no blending with the other speakers.

having said that I only listen to two channel music and multichannel is reserved for movies -this may be one reason I have found the center to be a detriment- maybe listening to actual multi channel music may be different.

so, what about the smoothing effect of multiple speakers that I alluded to in my first post? for example with subwoofers. wont this be even more important with full range speakers?

 

[TLS Guy]

agree on the horizontal - but I also tested the paradigm center vertical. still sounded small. also the atom was vertical- still sounded small.

when i say mono what i mean is that movies have the dialogue ( and a lot of other content) hard panned to that center speaker, with no blending with the other speakers.

having said that I only listen to two channel music and multichannel is reserved for movies -this may be one reason I have found the center to be a detriment- maybe listening to actual multi channel music may be different.

so, what about the smoothing effect of multiple speakers that I alluded to in my first post? for example with subwoofers. wont this be even more important with full range speakers?

To be honest, I'm far from a fan of Paradigm speakers. I have not heard the Atom, but in cursory survey there seem to be a lot of unhappy owners, with descriptions of them, such as wretched.

I will say this, two really good speakers are far better than five or seven bad ones.

I always advise starting with two really good speakers and adding a good sub or two as funds permit, then center and lastly surrounds.

I do think all speakers need to be of a decent standard, and especially the center. It is reproducing the human voice. That is something the brain will detect imperfection of reproduction pronto.

Subs are to extend the range of the other speakers, and with placement you can ameliorate room mode anomalies to an extent.

One other word, equalizers are not much use. You can not equalize a lousy speaker to a good one ever.

 

[big O]

To be honest, I'm far from a fan of Paradigm speakers. I have not heard the Atom, but in cursory survey there seem to be a lot of unhappy owners, with descriptions of them, such as wretched.

I will say this, two really good speakers are far better than five or seven bad ones.

I always advise starting with two really good speakers and adding a good sub or two as funds permit, then center and lastly surrounds.

I do think all speakers need to be of a decent standard, and especially the center. It is reproducing the human voice. That is something the brain will detect imperfection of reproduction pronto.

Subs are to extend the range of the other speakers, and with placement you can ameliorate room mode anomalies to an extent.

One other word, equalizers are not much use. You can not equalize a lousy speaker to a good one ever.

Wow. I agree with pretty much everything you just said.

Two good speakers better than many bad ones, eq is not a cure all
Start with the left and right.

Good post.

The atoms are not bad. They are not my main speaker but I have auditioned them against a pair of speakers costing 3k and they held their own for the most part. The 3k speaker was more detailed,more open,mmore rich,but the average person may not hear a difference.

I was reading somewhere that at 10khz a sound is in phase about two inches?
I wonder how multiple drivers changes this

 

[agarwalro]

Very interesting thread and a refreshing change.

agree on the horizontal - but I also tested the paradigm center vertical. still sounded small. also the atom was vertical- still sounded small.

Needs to be said though, can't expect magic with that size and price point. Could it be that one of the three was defective and you happened to use it as the center? Did you by any chance swap the center for L or R? Just exploring possibilities.

TLS Guy,
What is your take on the WT/MW configuration of the center speaker design? There are many happy with the Ascend Sierra Horizon, Salk Song Center or Philharmonic Audio Center.

 

[gene]

The problem is that most center speakers are horizontal. In other words MTM designs turned in their side. This can never work.

The other issue is that a center speaker is not mono, unless the only speaker in use, but a member of a multi channel speaker array.

Now using a center speaker in an algorithm mode playing music recorded as two channel will give variable results. In general for close multi miked pop music the result will be awful.

However for ambient recordings made with far field mike techniques the results can be rewarding. This is because there is less microphone bleeding and the antiphase ambient envelope is properly preserved and an algorithm like Dolby PL 2x can do its job.

However to really judge the center you need at least a discrete three channel recording.

Unfortunately for most domestic rooms, the center ends up being too close to the left and right speakers. Apart from being very coherent, a well designed coaxial speaker fits the bill. The bass cone acts as a nice wave guide producing a cone radiating pattern over the listening area, and minimizing interference with the left and right speakers. In my view it has the optimal radiation pattern free of lobing errors required for the task.

One last point. I actually prefer listening to mono recordings from my center speaker alone. I prefer that to dual mono.

The issues with horizontal MTMs as center channels is a bit overstated. Unless your sitting more than 30 deg off axis- a horizontal MTM can still work quite well as a center though a W(T/M)W is still usually the preferred solution by some.

see:http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/center-channel-speaker

For > 30 deg off-axis cases, a W(T/M)W is definitely a superior solution over a horizontal MTM. In fact, I would take a W(T/M)W over a coaxial design any day. Coaxial speakers can be good but most aren't. They are particularly advantageous in a close-field listening environment but they don't offer any advantage over a properly designed 2 or 3 way speaker in a real room. Instead they often are dynamically limited and their intermodulation products can be quite nasty. You almost always have to use a compromised tweeter design with a smaller motor structure to fit it inside the middle of the woofer.

Check all of the research done by Dr. Floyd Toole and Sean Olive. If Coaxial speakers were really superior as some of the claims have been made, then certainly they would be more widely adopted in the industry. Just look at how well a speaker like the JBL M2 measures and that's a 2-way horn and a well executed one at that.

You can get away with NO center provided that you sit in the stereo sweet spot but this makes for a poor experience for anyone sitting at a side seat. If the OP is having problems getting a good center channel integration then he needs to look at:

• set up and positioning
  
• calibration and bass management
• and most of all avoid stupid designs like tweeters firing on opposite ends of the cabinet

 

[gene]

im thinking along the lines of the science behind why two subwoofers sound better than one- could this also be why a phantom center could sound better than one speaker? smoothing out the response- reducing room modes?

No that doesn't work like that above the room transition frequency (300Hz or so). At low F, the room dictates the bass but at high F the speaker is the biggest influence.

For discrete sources a center channel is a must IMO. However for 2CH music, I don't like the matrixed sound of a center channel you get with PLII or DTS:Neo. In those cases, I can see preferring no center channel.

 

[3db]

hi, ive seen all the facts about why a center speaker is "always" better than a phantom center channel. it avoids combing,lobing etc. and anchors the sound to the screen,etc. yet, every single time i try a centers speaker, i find the sound to be much smaller, less smooth, and far less natural than with a phantom center.
this has been an ongoing battle for many months now- ive tried four different center speakers and many different configurations..

Its not always better than a phantom center channel. There are times and or situations where the two are equal.

so here is my question to approach this from a different angle- is there any science out there that may support why I am finding the phantom center to be far more pleasing than an actual center speaker?

im thinking along the lines of the science behind why two subwoofers sound better than one- could this also be why a phantom center could sound better than one speaker? smoothing out the response- reducing room modes?

here is my latest experiment. THREE identical speakers- paradigm atom v3s- one for the left, one for center, and one for right. distance between left and right is approx 6 feet, and the center was in the middle, either below the tv or above the tv.

my thinking was that the reason the center has never sounded good was because i was not using identical speakers-so i changed that. well, what would you know- center speaker still sounds small, boxy,weird, but sum the center to left and right to create a phantom and voila - smooth, natural,lush -same exact speakers being used, no eq.

so, im done with the center speaker for good i just want to somehow see if there is science that jives what im hearing with some theory.

I'm quite happy with the performance of the center channel in both of my room setups. I would have set up as a minimum bass management assigning all speakers as small. Are the left and right mains close to the side walls?

 

[big O]

thanks for the replies guys
@agarwalro , no, speaker was not defective. i tested this.

@gene, thanks for the link and the info on room modes

@3db, speakers not close at all to any sidewalls.

so after this post i decided to put the center channel to the ultimate torture test- my opinion going into this test was that as a rule, the mono channel is flawed and it can never sound as good as a phantom center.

so here is what i did. i set up my atoms as the main left and right, and set up one psb t6 as the center, standing straight, bang in front of the tv, in what would be the most ideal location that a center could EVER be placed in my room. my goal was to see if, using a speaker i know and love, in a ideal vertical position, with no compromise for placement relative to a tv ,a real center could sound as good as a phantom,or would it fall on its face like it always has even though i have now put it in the best position to shine.

the t6 was literally obscuring the screen. i played a movie that has some female singing in mono and switched back and forth between the atoms playing phantom center and the t6 being the actual center, always playing the same cut. i matched the levels of course.

well what i found is the center channel in this test did not fall on its face like its done every time before.
i had my wife in on the test, and we both sat off center to simulate a worst case scenario for the phantom. as usual, the phantom center sounded great. but this time the real center sounded just as good. matter of fact in an ABAB blind test my wife picked the t6 real center as her favorite. obviously a lot of this owing to the fact that the t6 is a better sounding speaker than the atom, however it still proved that real centers dont suck just because they are a mono sound.it also proved to me that ,even in a best case scenario, the best i can hope for out of a real center is to sound equally as good as a phantom, not better.

having done this simple test, i ultimately went back to the phantom center because in the real world, i cant have a tower speaker obscuring my screen just so i can have a real center channel that sounds about equal to the phantom center, and any compromised positioning of the center either over or under the tv results in a noticeably diminished sound quality,making it worse than the phantom,so in the real world, the phantom wins.

so ,back to square one...

 

[big O]

anyone want to comment on this? this pic is the sound system of a guy i bought(he practically gave it to me) and amp from. im looking at sonus faber amati homage speakers 20k / pair. i dont know what the other speakers are but they look expensive. this pic easily contains over 50k worth of audio gear, and the expensive center speaker is sitting on the floor. so in this case, wouldnt it have been better for this guy to use a phantom center?

 

[Swerd]

This is a long & complicated question. Let me summarize…

You use 3 Paradigm Atom speakers with a TV. About 7.8' separates left from right, with the center in the middle. Listeners sit about 10 feet away.

You find that a phantom center sounds better than 3 identical Atoms. And you wonder why. You suggested a number of possible reasons why this might be:

First, you asked if it is similar to when two subwoofers sound better than one? Does it smooth out the response – reducing room modes? Definitely not. The reason why sub woofers in 2 or more locations work better than one applies to sound below the room transition frequency (300 Hz or lower). Gene discussed this above. What you hear in the center channel, mainly voice, is at a higher frequency.

TLS Guy, and others, suggested that the distance between your left & right speakers when using a center speaker seems to be an issue. Your speakers are too close together, leading to comb filtering in the speech band. I agree. That distance not does work well with those Atom speakers. Move them farther apart, if you can, or use two speakers with a phantom center.

There can be interference and cancellations (comb filtering) in this frequency range when two speakers are close enough together while generating the same sound. It isn't easy to identify comb filtering without moving several inches or feet sideways while listening to the same passage. If voices sound loud & clear, or muffled & distant, as you move to different positions, then comb filtering is the problem.

Next you wondered if the problem might be the mono speaker itself. Converting a stereo signal to a processing mode that puts the vocals to the center channel, it sounded unnatural. Put it back to stereo and it sounded natural again. No, it has nothing to do with mono. That’s because those processing modes which take a 2-channel stereo signal and alter it into a surround-like mode with a center channel (such as Dolby PL II) are doing it synthetically. Movies in 5 channel digital sound have 5 discrete audio channels in the recording and on the disc. During playback, nothing is synthesized. These have a discrete center channel – in movies this is mainly dialog.

Finally, you tried a better speaker, a PSB T6 tower, as a center speaker. You found that it sounded just as good as phantom center channel with two narrowly spaced Atoms. You demonstrated that a different, and probably better sounding speaker, didn't behave as poorly as an Atom in the same set up. There is your answer. Those Atom speakers, at the left-to-right distances you're using, work poorly if there is an Atom as a center speaker. I've tried to answer your questions to show that you shouldn't generalize your specific situation to all cases.

A couple of related points:
In this test, were you using a 2-channel stereo signal, converted to Dolby PLII, while switching back and forth between 3 speakers and 2? Or were you using a discrete 5-channel audio source while doing the switching?

Even though you never tried a sidewards MTM center speaker, I also agree with Gene when he talked about how such a speaker can work alright as a center channel speaker in many rooms. It really depends on the room width, and how far away from center the various listeners sit.

 

[3db]

Even though you never tried a sidewards MTM center speaker, I also agree with Gene when he talked about how such a speaker can work alright as a center channel speaker in many rooms. It really depends on the room width, and how far away from center the various listeners sit.

If you look at pics of my main setup, you will notice that my L/R speakers are at most 8' apart and that my center channel sits above my screen and a foot back from it. The sofa is 10' back from the L/R mains. Even with this terrible positioning, I hear no issues with my center channel at all. Its clear, articulate and anchors the sound to the screen just like it was designed to do.

IHO, I think its the Atom speakers that are the culprit and not so much the distance between them.

 

[agarwalro]

anyone want to comment on this? ... the expensive center speaker is sitting on the floor. so in this case, wouldnt it have been better for this guy to use a phantom center?

I can only hope the center is disconnected and so placed there for convenience.

 

[big O]

If you look at pics of my main setup, you will notice that my L/R speakers are at most 8' apart and that my center channel sits above my screen and a foot back from it. The sofa is 10' back from the L/R mains. Even with this terrible positioning, I hear no issues with my center channel at all. Its clear, articulate and anchors the sound to the screen just like it was designed to do.

IHO, I think its the Atom speakers that are the culprit and not so much the distance between them.

the poor atom doth suffer much disrespect. it may not be the greatest speaker but it is very good imo for what it is. also,why would it sound great in phantom but sound bad in the center.
also, i dont know how the distance between speakers can have any effect at all on sound quality if the sound emanates from only one speaker? ie center channel vocals can come from center only or be downmixed to the mains for a phantom center. nothing in between.

btw, great to hear your center channel sounds great. perchance have you tried it in phantom mode to see how it compares?

 

[big O]

I can only hope the center is disconnected and so placed there for convenience.

lol. that made me laugh