Full range design´s. Does this make sense to you?

[MALIK_BRODER]

Hithere I just took an interest in full range single speaker design based on good stereo imaging, and simplicity.

I am intrigued to build my own, but would like to know what the crowd thinks about the pros and cons.

Cheers

Malik

 

[KEW]

How much experience do you have with woodworking and electronics assembly?
What type of budget are we looking at?
If you are just starting , it usually makes sense to buy a DIY kit . That way someone else has done the design work and picked out appropriate components . If you are only looking to build a pair of speakers and live with them this is probably the best way to go . If you are wanting to actually learn to design and build speakers it may still be a good start or you may want to go ahead and dive in to the deep end . You should also check out the DIY subforum on this site .
Parts Express has a Tri Trix kit that is popular and more recently adopted a kit by Jeff Bagby . Both of these are close to full range . I say close because it takes a impressive speaker to get down to 20 Hz . Most of us find it easier and less expensive to put a subwoofer in this role .
If you are very much looking for a starter kit to build , I think the Overnight Sensations kit sold by Parts Express is a good option .

 

[MALIK_BRODER]

Thanks so much Kurt. That´s a great answer. I don´t really need to go down all the way to 20Hz, but something around 30-40Hz would be nice. I am not versed in electronics, but pretty good around wood working and would prefer to build from scratch. The creative experience is part of the fun. I somehow always here where the subwoofer is hidden in a room. I am probably some sort of different animal.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

If you feel confident with woodworking and a bit of soldering this design is what I recommend.
It's a bit fuller than great options Kew suggested and much better speaker overall.
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/new-diy-mtm-towers-designed-by-dennis-murphy-and-paul-kittinger.68531/

One thing I highly recommend againts, is for newbie to attempt to design their own speakers - it's not learning experience if you try to flight jet plane without a pilot license - it's a recipy for disaster

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

oh an just noticed your other thread: http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/quarter-wave-loudspeaker-enclosures.94393/

ER18 MTMTL - TL Stands for Transmission line = aka Quarter wave

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

single driver AND a full range? This is exactly why I said what I said above in post #4

Good luck

 

[MALIK_BRODER]

I am actually not entirely against disasters as long as I learn something. Somehow I would like to get involved in the entire process, simulation, Driver selection based on T/S parameters,cabinet design, crossover (hopefully I don´t need one) etc. If it doesn´t sound well I´ll build something else... First speakers I built were out of two, IKEA wood salad bowls. Used basic Bass reflex simulators to select a driver and port dimensions. Sounded pretty good.

 

[MALIK_BRODER]

Anyone here built a TABAQ?

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Anyone here built a TABAQ?

You mean this: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/88787-tabaq-tl-tang-band.html
Model does look interesting indeed - Tangband makes some very fine drivers.
this is the driver first post model based on:
http://www.parts-express.com/tang-band-w4-1320sj-4-bamboo-cone-driver--264-847

Looks interesting and since no crossover and you comfortable with more complex structure then by all means

 

[KEW]

BSA is giving good advice/recommendations, now that we know better where you are coming from.

I somehow always here where the subwoofer is hidden in a room. I am probably some sort of different animal.

You probably do have a higher sensitivity than most people to be able to locate the subwoofer, but you might also consider testing with the crossover frequency of the sub.
Ability of humans to localize bass usually drops off around 100Hz. Obviously, many PC 2.1 sub-sat systems (and some of the smaller HT systems) crossover from the speaker to sub at higher frequencies than that such that the majority of people can locate them if they try.
Assuming you are talking about a higher quality system, 80Hz is a more common crossover. If you localize a sub at 80Hz, you are in rare company! However, you might experiment by switching the roll off to 60 Hz or even 40Hz temporarily to see where your threshold is. I'm no expert on this, but I suspect there is a frequency where it becomes impossible for any person to localize bass.

 

[Alex2507]

BSA is giving good advice/recommendations, now that we know better where you are coming from.



You probably do have a higher sensitivity than most people to be able to locate the subwoofer, but you might also consider testing with the crossover frequency of the sub.
Ability of humans to localize bass usually drops off around 100Hz. Obviously, many PC 2.1 sub-sat systems (and some of the smaller HT systems) crossover from the speaker to sub at higher frequencies than that such that the majority of people can locate them if they try.
Assuming you are talking about a higher quality system, 80Hz is a more common crossover. If you localize a sub at 80Hz, you are in rare company! However, you might experiment by switching the roll off to 60 Hz or even 40Hz temporarily to see where your threshold is. I'm no expert on this, but I suspect there is a frequency where it becomes impossible for any person to localize bass.

Using dual DIY subs in a nearfield system has allowed me to sort of test out that scenario. When the frequency is lower (60 Hz) I can't so much as locate one sub or the other as much as I "miss" that little extra from the side I turn the amp off on. I would love to ditch one of the subs for the extra space but that little extra bottom end is so disco ...

Trying to replace both DIY subs with a single Super Cube I didn't work out either. I'm just like the OP on that score. I could find that sub no matter what. I don't think I ever tried to cross below 60 Hz.



That ER18 can be a one and done speaker solution. Sean (the builder ) also built some Overnight Sensations that he liked. I heard a pair at a DIY speaker thing and liked them too. That sort of covers some ground regarding budget.

 

[Swerd]

On occasion I've heard single driver speakers, but none recently. All of them suffer from a problem inherent to their size. Small drivers lack bass, and larger drivers loose off-axis performance in the upper mid range, frequencies we can easily hear. All of them suffer from lack of response in the higher treble range.

People who are single driver adherents often say that crossovers create audible problems. I'd agree to the extent that poorly designed crossovers create audible problems. There are some very well designed DIY speakers, such as the ER18MTM, with crossovers that for all intents and purposes are "invisible", or more properly, inaudible. They have full range performance (down to roughly 32 Hz) without any dip or loss of coherency across the crossover frequency range. They have excellent off-axis performance and create vivid musical "images".

The ER18MTM is a tried and true design. Buy the parts, build the cabinet with the dimensions as shown in the drawings, assemble and wire the crossover.

Dome tweeter:
http://meniscusaudio.com/er18mtm-dome-pair-p-1322.html

Ribbon tweeter:
http://meniscusaudio.com/er18mtm-ribbon-pair-p-1323.html

Properly designing transmission line cabinets requires some knowledge, experience, and some computer software that is no longer readily available. See http://www.quarter-wave.com/

The guy who designed the cabinets for the ER18MTM, Paul Kittinger, uses this software and is among the more experienced and knowledgeable people at this.

 

[fuzz092888]

These will get you down to about 55hz, however at what SPL I have no idea. Nothing anywhere near reference level.

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/full-range-speaker-kits/fostex-bk-16-folded-horn-kit-pair/

There are also these two, but they're sealed and meant to be mated with a sub.

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/alpha-kits/concentric-8/concentric-8-bamboo.html

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/coaxial-speaker-kits/volt-10lxe/v10-volt-lxe-kit.html

 

[Swerd]

These will get you down to about 55hz, however at what SPL I have no idea. Nothing anywhere near reference level.

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/full-range-speaker-kits/fostex-bk-16-folded-horn-kit-pair/

I think that speaker kit is what I heard a number of years ago at a DIY meeting. Not bad, but not wonderful.

 

[walter duque]

My last pair had these http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-ORIGINAL-TANNOY-3808-3838-3809-SRM-SGM-15-dual-concentric-GOLD-full-drivers-/191561722602?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c99f7eaea drivers and they did sound great, one of the best sounding speakers I have ever owned.

 

[fuzz092888]

I think that speaker kit is what I heard a number of years ago at a DIY meeting. Not bad, but not wonderful.

That one, and the other two kits I linked are the only kits with cabinets I know about that are single driver. The only single driver speakers I think I've heard are Walter's Tannoy's before he sold them, the JW module center I have, and a few Kef bookshelves.

I'd like to hear one of those single driver horn loaded or TL/ML-TL loaded designs one time. I think it would be interesting. Not interesting enough to pry any of the other speakers or subs I have away from me, but could make for a fun project someday.

 

[ski2xblack]

Pretty good comments from all. The wide band single driver approach has it's charms and limits.

Malik, about the closest to your stated goals I've messed with would be the TB W8-1772 in mltl cabs from Brines Acoustics (linky). While still limited in dynamics and bandwidth, the W8's are big enough to give at least a little punch, and the high frequency beaminess was actually advantageous in a somewhat lively room. They do dig to the 40 hz area.

 

[TLS Guy]

Hithere I just took an interest in full range single speaker design based on good stereo imaging, and simplicity.

I am intrigued to build my own, but would like to know what the crowd thinks about the pros and cons.

Cheers

Malik

I can help you if you want.

I have a long experience with full rangers.

The big problem is cone break up resulting in a rough frequency response and beaming.

If you use a single driver and want to run it up to 20 Hz its going to break up.

So the question becomes how is going to break up. The only guy that ever really solved this problem is Ted Jordan. The secret of his designs is that there is controlled break up with frequency, such that the radiating area decrease linearly with increasing frequency.

The heart of his success is the tractrix cone made to very precise specifications and tolerance.

Only his designs and full rangers built using his principals sound really good to me.

His first and probably his best design was the Jordan Watts module that appeared in 1959.

Here is a link to my page about them.

Other designs using is principles are Bandor and Mark.

The JW module was and is revered in the Far East. I company out of Taiwan makes a driver based on these principles and is the closets modern version of the JW module.

This driver would be closest to the MK III JW.

One of the added bonus features of a driver that follows what I call Jordan's law is that they self compensate the baffle step compensation with no need for a network.

Now a lot of full rangers are designed for high sensitivity, so are low Q drivers, and need horn loading to pull up the bass like the Lowthers.

The JW or Mark can be loaded by sealed, reflex, or TL and therefore the Voight quarter wave pipe. I think and aperiodic TL is the better bet.

A JW module in a TL is actually quite astonishing. Power limitation being a problem, but if crossed to a sub at 80 to 90 HZ capable of surprising spl.

The only full rangers I have a lot of experience with are the Jordan design's especially the JW, and the Lowthers. The Lowthers are pretty good, but not as smooth as the Jordan designs.

I personally think full rangers based on Ted Jordan's principles just ace out all the other full rangers.

 

[MALIK_BRODER]

Thanks for all the feedback guys lots to digest.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks for all the feedback guys lots to digest.

You are welcome.

Having an interest in full range drivers is a worthy pursuit and not part of the lunatic fringe necessarily, but can be.

I would say that the lack of good wide band drivers is the single biggest problem in audio, and the problem most in need of serious research.

I don't think anybody has done any serious research on this since Ted Jordan's work.

We could improve speakers immensely if we had more good drivers whose pass band at least covered the speech discrimination band and at least an octave either side and preferably two.

If I was put in charge of speaker development for a speaker company this would be my first priority for R & D.

I approach all my designs from a full ranger perspective.