Imagined vs actual improvements we hear

D

dodgers831

Audioholic Intern
I've often wondered to what degree our mind influences what we hear from our speakers/system. For example, my 12+ year old NAD C370 integrated amp "seemed" to be humming louder than usual recently (or maybe I haven't been paying close attention). The humming wasn't coming from the speakers and could not be heard from my listening spot about 9 feet away. I touched the amp and it seemed warm, but not overly so. Yet, I was starting to feel a bit concerned that maybe something internal was going afoul. So, today I decided to open it up for the first time. Not knowing what to look for, everything seemed OK, to my naive eyes - no obvious leakage, charred marks, melted components, etc. It was a bit dusty but, surprisingly, not severely after 12 years. I proceeded to give it the best vacuuming I could without taking apart the boards or busting connections, then screwed it back together. Then, I turned it on and played a CD to make sure I didn't f$@#k it up. Now, here's the strange thing. I cued the CD to the last track I listened to the night before and....it seemed to actually sounded more life-like, like there was more presence! What!? Of course, this makes no sense and was likely only the result of feeling relief that the amp was still working plus an overexaggerated sense of accomplishment at opening and vacuuming the amp. I kind of liken this experience to washing and waxing my truck, then driving it around and feeling like it runs smoother, with less drag. Ridiculous, right. But the perception is there.

Another example. On another audio blog site, there was a breif discussion about the value of listening to youtube videos of speakers to help in auditioning, when we can't listen to them directly. My first thought was - "How could this be helpful, if I'm listening through the speakers on my laptop or desktop screen?" But, I was curious, so I viewed the video, which was of the Ascend Towers with Nrt tweets. The speakers are highly acclaimed and out of my price range, but I continued, perhaps out of envy. (BTW, I've owned the CBM 170s for 12 years; good speaker, good company). Well, the speakers were playing Dire Straits "Money for Nothing". The sound was open and spacious and I was actually impressed. Anyhow, here's the funny thing. I started to hear parts of the music that I didn't hear from my system. You often hear audio reviewers say something like "...through Brand X I heard (fill in the blank) that I never heard through Brand Y..." Well, this was actually happening to me, as I was listening through my computer screen, for crying out loud! I was hearing ethereal synthesizer notes in the intro of the song, which sounded completely new to my ears. I was already critising my own speakers for not being up to the task and, in my panicked state, flew downstairs to play my copy of the CD. I was already convinced the tweets on my speakers would fall short. Much to my relief, the synth notes were there perfectly resolved and quite obvious, weaving through the intro. I just hadn't noticed them before but, again, my mind was telling me something that wasn't true and it was shaping how I felt about my speakers.

I think it's facinating how our state of mind plays a role in what we hear, not that there aren't actual differences in audio speakers/equipment. Of course there are. But, as we tweak here and tweak there for that perfect sound, when do the "improvements" become imagined versus actual? Just a thought.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
If you removed enough dust, it may be running cooler- that stuff acts like a blanket and if it prevents cooling of the circuits, it may cause changes that are audible. As the temperature of conductors and components increases, their conductivity changes (the resistance in conductors increases).
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
when do the "improvements" become imagined versus actual? Just a thought.
I think that is a very good question. I really like to be able to A-B the two conditions with matched SPL and verify through repeat-ability.

Anyone who thinks their ears are absolutely the final word in truth needs to watch this.

The McGurk effect (thanks to Alex for introducing me to this):
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I think that is a very good question. I really like to be able to A-B the two conditions with matched SPL and verify through repeat-ability.

Anyone who thinks their ears are absolutely the final word in truth needs to watch this.

The McGurk effect (thanks to Alex for introducing me to this):

I think it has been mentioned in other threads, possibly by Dr Sean Olive himself, but in the '90s, the Harmon Group wanted to find out why other brands were selling so many speakers. I was watching some YouTube videos and entered Dr Floyd Toole in the search bar, finding a video with him being interviewed and stills of their speaker evaluation setup. He said the heads of Harmon went to him and basically asked, "You're the speaker expert, why aren't we selling more speakers?"

They found that most listeners chose the same speakers as the best, unless they could see them. Blind, all they could use was their ears but once the covers came off and their eyes/mind entered the equation, they picked the ones that looked good to them.

When I worked at a stereo store and we demonstrated equipment through the switching system, we either started with low volume and increased it for anything being considered if there was no way to level-match (speakers, usually) but if it was receivers, integrated amps and preamp/power amp combos, we matched. That's great, but the switching system was still there, possibly altering the sound.

Anytime someone knows something is changing, sees/hears/feels/tastes that there's more of something, they choose that until it's just too much. Boost the bass for one speaker and people usually choose that one.

I think that if there's a reason to care- if it's for a future purchase and it's the reviewer's money that will be on the line, the results will tend to be less analytical and more concerned with aesthetics but if they think "I don't care if they like my responses, I'm here to be critical", they may be more objective. IMO, once someone decides "I don't have to like this", they can be more accurate in their analysis.
 
tyhjaarpa

tyhjaarpa

Audioholic Field Marshall
Well if you have never dusted your amp dust may effect in performance of amp as it might effect in cooling capability and even cause some conductiveness on places where should not be conduct. These can possibly effect in sound quality.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
They found that most listeners chose the same speakers as the best, unless they could see them. Blind, all they could use was their ears but once the covers came off and their eyes/mind entered the equation, they picked the ones that looked good to them.
That kind of begs the question "Which is more important, sound quality or perceived sound quality?"
If the good looks of a speaker are enough to skew our perception so we believe it sounds better when we A-B speakers; isn't it logical that we would ultimately be more happy with the better looking speaker? We see them all of the time.

If I can draw an analogy, I have kissed some especially good looking girls who may not have been as good a kissers as other girls, but kissing them sure seemed/felt better to me!:D:p
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
That kind of begs the question "Which is more important, sound quality or perceived sound quality?"
If the good looks of a speaker are enough to skew our perception so we believe it sounds better when we A-B speakers; isn't it logical that we would ultimately be more happy with the better looking speaker? We see them all of the time.

If I can draw an analogy, I have kissed some especially good looking girls who may not have been as good a kissers as other girls, but kissing them sure seemed/felt better to me!:D:p
Cosmetic appeal is great, but as Charlie Sheen said, for every hot woman, there's some guy who's sick of taking her BS.

I look at audio equipment this way- great sound and functionality come first and if everything that happens and they look great, it's a bonus. I don't know of a single speaker that actually benefited from exotic hardwood, but that doesn't stop me from appreciating it. As a woodworker, the cabinet is part of what I look at, as well as the overall design but honestly, great paint work and furniture only add to the cost of a speaker and that might place it in a price category that many people can't afford. That's unfortunate because I think the sound quality should be the main focus of the design. It wouldn't kill the manufacturers to make the same speakers in a much more basic finish.

Honestly, when I initially audition equipment, I'm not even looking at it- I usually listen with my eyes closed and I used to shut off the lights fairly often, at home.
 
D

dodgers831

Audioholic Intern
  • If I can draw an analogy, I have kissed some especially good looking girls who may not have been as good a kissers as other girls, but kissing them sure seemed/felt better to me!:D:p
Kew - Oh, I laughed out loud! And reminisced about my youth. Thanks for the humor!
 
D

dodgers831

Audioholic Intern
Well if you have never dusted your amp dust may effect in performance of amp as it might effect in cooling capability and even cause some conductiveness on places where should not be conduct. These can possibly effect in sound quality.
Well it seems that both you and Highfigh are in agreement that vacuuming could lead to improved sound. I wonder if there is some psychoacoustics are going on? Has anyone ever tested the before and after cleaning? I want to trust my ears but then again, I tried to fool myself into thinking my cheerleader girlfriend in high school was a good kisser; she was not.:confused: This in reference to Kew's reply, above.
 
D

dodgers831

Audioholic Intern
Cosmetic appeal is great, but as Charlie Sheen said, for every hot woman, there's some guy who's sick of taking her BS.
Highfigh- well, we're human beings and have eyes for a reason. Visual impressions make a big difference on initial feelings. So, something that looks aesthetically pleasing could color our evaluations. I love my speakers. I think nothing can touch them for the money, but they are Plain Janes when compared to others in the same price range. Those in charge of marketing know how to play with our tendencies with slick websites and exotic veneers and some jumbo jumbo mixed in. Then the upgrade bug hits and I start to think a prettier speaker might sound better. I'm just glad to hear that I'm not alone when it comes to acknowledging that our imaginations can play strongly in what we hear.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Honestly, when I initially audition equipment, I'm not even looking at it- I usually listen with my eyes closed and I used to shut off the lights fairly often, at home.
That may help a little, but it doesn't remove the bias or preconceived perception since you KNOW what you're listening to. :)
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Well it seems that both you and Highfigh are in agreement that vacuuming could lead to improved sound. I wonder if there is some psychoacoustics are going on? Has anyone ever tested the before and after cleaning? I want to trust my ears but then again, I tried to fool myself into thinking my cheerleader girlfriend in high school was a good kisser; she was not.:confused: This in reference to Kew's reply, above.
I'm not referring to anything like "wait 'till you hear the difference this makes", other than allowing the circuitry to lose heat in the way it was designed. If heat is retained, component performance changes and it can be measurable. Not only that, but some of the components will fail much sooner than expected and the protection circuit can activate when it normally wouldn't.

Maybe it's time to make a gold nozzle with carbon fiber bristles for my shop vac, so I can separate myself from the run of the mill dealers, eh? o_O

Keeping your engine cool is done so it will perform as designed and to avoid catastrophic failure. Period. This is the same. If you cover the heat sinks and prevent them from cooling properly, it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when it will fail. When a piece comes in for service and it has a heavy layer of dust, the first thing that anyone will do is remove the dust. Also, if the humidity is extremely high, the dust will become more conductive than the air and that can lead to other problems.

I don't care about psycho-acoustics when a piece of equipment comes in for service and has crap all over the components, I care that it may be damaged and I have yet to see anyone service equipment as a "Psycho-Acoustic" specialist. I have, however, seen people take money for re-capping equipment based on the customer having read that it will make a night and day improvement and once the work was done, gush over the improved sound even though the dealer had lost the ability to hear much of anything above 3.5KHz due to having served in Vietnam.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
That kind of begs the question "Which is more important, sound quality or perceived sound quality?"
That reminded me of something an old timer once told me.
Perception is everything.
Unfortunately it's true.
We humans are frequently tripped up by what we think we know.;)
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
That may help a little, but it doesn't remove the bias or preconceived perception since you KNOW what you're listening to. :)
In order for that kind of bias to have an affect on the trial, the listener has to care that it might be better or worse. When I listen to something for the first time, it's not because I care that it may sound better, it's to find out if it sounds better. If it's different, I'll listen more, if it doesn't seem to be different, I'll move on. The first step is obviously to decide if it's different and the next step is to decide if the difference makes it better, or worse.

I don't approach this stuff as if it's surrounded my some kind of mysticism- I listen, so I can enjoy the music and if it sounds great, that's even better but I have serious problems when companies and salespeople act like their products are so different that the large amount of money they charge is of no consequence. When money enters the conversation, the item(s) in question will usually sound better because the potential buyer has been preconditioned to believe that it will before the sound ever starts. Then, when they ask what they should hear, the salesperson will tell them, in words that would normally make no sense and sometimes, they'll be a bit condescending, saying "Wait, you can't hear that????????". This is often followed by the potential buyer hearing exactly what was described.

"I paid $2000 for these cables and they better damn well sound great!".

How many people buy a Ferarri and NEVER drive it fast or, for that matter, how many have been trained to drive fast and how many actually appreciate all of the engine/suspension refinements that are supposed to make it special?
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
That reminded me of something an old timer once told me.
Perception is everything.
Unfortunately it's true.
We humans are frequently tripped up by what we think we know.;)
Absolutely! If we are made to perceive that something is better, we'll believe. If the story seems plausible, it will often gain acceptance. Then, after a large enough number of people agree, it snowballs.

Did you see the quote that has been attributed to Noel Lee's son, when asked about the success of Monster Cable? "My father created a solution to a problem that didn't exist".
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Well, I know for a fact that my '04 Hyundai Elantra runs better after I run it through a car wash... :rolleyes:
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Well, I know for a fact that my '04 Hyundai Elantra runs better after I run it through a car wash... :rolleyes:
Of course. Less dirt = less friction = less drag = more efficient. :eek: :D

It definitely runs better too when you fill it with gasoline. :D
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
My 2005 Astro hauls butt when I rotate the air in the tires.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
As a thought try to think back to: did you ever as someone to repeat something just to be told nothing was said?
Has happened to me a number of times that my memory remembers. While it is not frequent, not yet, it has happened.

The mind playing tricks.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
As a thought try to think back to: did you ever as someone to repeat something just to be told nothing was said?
Has happened to me a number of times that my memory remembers. While it is not frequent, not yet, it has happened.

The mind playing tricks.
Didn't you just ask this?

Your example hasn't happened to me, but I have worked with people who seemed to think they said things, but didn't. Then, they were mad because people didn't do what they wanted.
 

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