SACD/CD Player Advice needed

[BrianW]

Dunno what to tell ya. guy. I just know what I know.

And, SACD CD's don't downconvert. They generally are dual layer discs, one SACD layer and the other redbook CD. If you play a SACD only disc in a non SACD capable unit, it won't work.


I was talking about the PLAYER down converting if it doesn't play the full resolution of my non dual layer SACDS through the Analog outputs.

AFAICT, to get "true" SACD quality, one needs a SACD player with a built-in DAC that can handle SACD's. These output via analog six audio outputs, generally in a 5.1 format. ...like the Oppos.

So, you're saying SOME SACD players WILL put out the full Rez through the analogue outputs but not the Sony S580?

BTW~I was talking about the PLAYER down converting if it doesn't play the full resolution of my non dual layer SACDS through the Analog outputs.

 

[markw]

No, you're reading what you what to believe, not what I'm saying.

To put it simply, you haven't been listening to the SACD tracks. You've been listening to the CD tracks thinking it was SACD. Both Peng, Seth and myself have alluded to that in this thread but it seems to have gone by unnoticed, If anything, this should show you that redbook is capable of very good performance on it's own. IOW, it isn't the media, it's the recording that is important.

Now, with that in mind, you might want to rethink your strategy here.

If you're still hung up on SACD, google "SACD players for sale" and see what's available. They will all have analog outputs, I believe,

 

[BrianW]

No, you're reading what you what to believe, not what I'm saying.

You've been listening toTo put it simply, you haven't been listening to the SACD tracks. the CD tracks thinking it was SACD. Both Peng, Seth and myself have alluded to that in this thread but it seems to have gone by unnoticed, If anything, this should show you that redbook is capable of very good performance on it's own. IOW, it isn't the media, it's the recording that is important.

Now, with that in mind, you might want to rethink your strategy here.

If you're still hung up on SACD, google "SACD players for sale" and see what's available. They will all have analog outputs, I believe,

Are you insane?

"No, you're reading what you what to believe, not what I'm saying."
???

You JUST said..."AFAICT, to get "true" SACD quality, one needs a SACD player with a built-in DAC that can handle SACD's."
For your information...a DAC outputs through ANALOG outs that's why it's called a DIGITAL TO ANALOG CONVERTER!!

"You've been listening toTo put it simply, you haven't been listening to the SACD tracks. the CD tracks thinking it was SACD. Both Peng, Seth and myself have alluded to that in this thread but it seems to have gone by unnoticed, If anything, this should show you that redbook is capable of very good performance on it's own."

This part is REALLY baffling since I haven't listened to my SACDs yet as I'm trying to get advice on how to set up first.

"OW, it isn't the media, it's the recording that is important."

Wow..alert the presses... MP3 is NOT lossless and no need for anything above Radio Shack quality components!

I've noticed attitude coming from you from the start.
If you have a problem with this thread...just ignore it please.

 

[PENG]

May I suggest we all push our reset button and do a restart. I am sure everyone is just trying to help.

Brian, if you go into setup, music settings you can set the player to play either the SACD layer or the CD layer. If you select the SACD layer, you should get SACD quality from the analog outputs as long in audio settings you set DSD output to off. The 580 offers only two analog channels so you can only play the SACD's stereo tracks if you use the red/white analog outputs.

For multichannel SACD, you must use HDMI output, and you can choose DSD on or off in the audio settings. If you select DSD on then you won't get any output unless it is connected to a HDMI device (e.g. AVR) that can handle DSD. If your AVR cannot take DSD input then you need to set the Sony to DSD off and it will then output in PCM and you still get SACD quality. The Oppo players are superior, I only suggest you keep the Sony because you have it already. An external DAC on its own won't help you unless you are prepared to use it with a computer or another media player that can play your favorite lossless formats such as Flac, AIFF, ALAC etc., aside from wave and mp3. As you know, a pure DAC will do conversion, not decoding.

 

[BrianW]

May I suggest we all push our reset button and do a restart. I am sure everyone is just trying to help.

Brian, if you go into setup, music settings you can set the player to play either the SACD layer or the CD layer. If you select the SACD layer, you should get SACD quality from the analog outputs as long in audio settings you set DSD output to off. The 580 offers only two analog channels so you can only play the SACD's stereo tracks if you use the red/white analog outputs.

For multichannel SACD, you must use HDMI output, and you can choose DSD on or off in the audio settings. If you select DSD on then you won't get any output unless it is connected to a HDMI device (e.g. AVR) that can handle DSD. If your AVR cannot take DSD input then you need to set the Sony to DSD off and it will then output in PCM and you still get SACD quality. The Oppo players are superior, I only suggest you keep the Sony because you have it already. An external DAC on its own won't help you unless you are prepared to use it with a computer or another media player that can play your favorite lossless formats such as Flac, AIFF, ALAC etc., aside from wave and mp3. As you know, a pure DAC will do conversion, not decoding.

Thanks for a friendly reply, Peng
I didn't come here to fight but to learn.

I'm sorry I'm a bit thick on this subject SACD... but that's why I'm here.
Let me explain a little more of why I posted this question...

I just bought the HD 650 headphones and love them.
So this has got me back into the upgraditis mode.
I mainly listen to CDs through a Marantz CD Player into a Little Dot III Tube Headphone Amp in the bedroom.
(My living room TV system is built around an Oppo 95 using the balanced outputs.)

Anyways, the new HPs had got me wondering about what else could be improved on my bedroom set-up.
So I tried an older Oppo SACD player I had laying around.
The sound was dramatically different using the RCA outputs (my LD Amp only has an RCA stereo input)
The sound was MUCH smoother with softer upper-mids.
This really exposed my Marantz as being a little too harsh.
However, I found the Oppo TOO smooth.
It was as though it took out some dynamics in my favorite Rock record (I also tested this on other CDS) I could see Jazz and Classical lovers preferring this sound.
I then tried my Sony SACD player also sitting around (I have an Oppo 95!)
The Sony's RCA putputs put out a sound that was the best to my ears with this setup.
The sound was much smoother and yet it kept the dynamic edge for my Rock.

Now... I only own maybe 5 SACDS (two SACD only Rolling Stones records and about 3 hybrid discs by THE WHO)
Since the Sony has a USB input I was thinking MAYBE I could convert the 24 bit Flac files I have on my PC into WAV and play them with my Sony's USB input as a bonus.
I TOTALLY forgot until Mark's comment today that Sony is (or was) paranoid about letting quality out of their control. (thanks Mark) and use to downgrade music out of their analog outputs (I have no idea if they still do this)
I should add that I'm ONLY interested in the stereo output as I'm working on a perfect setup for my Headphones in my bedroom.

I'm still confused as you said that true/full HD SACD music WILL come out of the Sony's analog outputs yet Mark said it won't.

Bottom line is I just want to get the full (and best to my ears) sound out of one of my two players (Oppo or Sony) when playing CDS, SACDS and 24 bit WAV files on a USB stick hopefully.
Although the Oppo rules out the 24 bit files as there's no USB input.

 

[PENG]

Brian, I have to go out shortly so can only give you a short answer for now. The manual (pg.21-24) is not totally clear on this topic. It clearly tells you to output DSD you need something (AVR as an example), capable of receiving it and decoding the DSD signal. However, it does not tell you specifically what happens if you use the analog (red/white RCA) outputs. I am 99% sure that if you set the player to play the SACD layer, it will decode internally and output it via the analog outputs if you also set HDMI DSD to off. The manual is "sort of" clear about this point. Whether the Sony would internally convert it from DSD to PCM and then analog, or directly from DSD to analog is something we do not know. That's why I used the term "SACD quality" because either way you do not lose resolution. In theory every time you go through a convertion step something is lost, but also in theory the conversion from DSD to PCM should be loseless. So Mark is probably (say >90%) correct if he is talking about pure DSD to analog, but not quite correct to say you are not listening to the SACD layer of the hybrid disc. Please note that he did try to help you several times and I can understand his frustration when I've been "sort of" repeating some of the things he told you, just in different words. We don't always agree on everything but we get along.

 

[TLS Guy]

When this is all said and one this a discussion about nothing.

You are only interested in two channel.

In that case you do not need SACD. The CD layer is fine. CD covers the limit of human hearing. For the vast majority of program it has more than adequate dynamic range.

The only possible program that can marginally benefit from the increased dynamic range of SACD is a few large scale works in the classical repertory, including a few operas. I'm talking about works that go from the softest hush to huge fortissimos. However very few playback systems have the power, dynamic range and signal to noise ratio to benefit. There is nothing in the pop/rock repertory that requires this increase dynamic range.

The only advantage of SACD is multichannel. Even then it is a poor system with different standards between US and Europe and very hard to set up properly. Very, very few multichannel SACD play back systems are set up properly. BD audio only is a much better system.

The idea that there is much program that can benefit from so called "high res" sources over red book CD is totally BOGUS.

I was at a performance of the Verdi Requiem at Orchestra Hall Minneapolis a week ago today.

The a significantly expanded Minnesota Orchestra was joined by the full Minnesota Chorale and a team of four first class soloists. It was a performance for the ages. There where the softest hushed sounds and ear splitting sections. Very few systems could render even a vague facsimile of that performance, and it would require the increased dynamic range some high res formats have over CD. Even then it would have to be captured with the finest digital microphones and digital mix deck. These situations are far and few between and do not arise in the popular culture.

 

[BrianW]

Brian, I have to go out shortly so can only give you a short answer for now. The manual (pg.21-24) is not totally clear on this topic. It clearly tells you to output DSD you need something (AVR as an example), capable of receiving it and decoding the DSD signal. However, it does not tell you specifically what happens if you use the analog (red/white RCA) outputs. I am 99% sure that if you set the player to play the SACD layer, it will decode internally and output it via the analog outputs if you also set HDMI DSD to off. The manual is "sort of" clear about this point. Whether the Sony would internally convert it from DSD to PCM and then analog, or directly from DSD to analog is something we do not know. That's why I used the term "SACD quality" because either way you do not lose resolution. In theory every time you go through a convertion step something is lost, but also in theory the conversion from DSD to PCM should be loseless. So Mark is probably (say >90%) correct if he is talking about pure DSD to analog, but not quite correct to say you are not listening to the SACD layer of the hybrid disc. Please note that he did try to help you several times and I can understand his frustration when I've been "sort of" repeating some of the things he told you, just in different words. We don't always agree on everything but we get along.

Ok, my attack on Mark wasn't warranted and I'm sorry Mark if you're still reading this.
But not everyone here understands this stuff like him (me) and he could use a little patience and understanding like what's coming from you.

 

[BrianW]

When this is all said and one this a discussion about nothing.

You are only interested in two channel.

In that case you do not need SACD. The CD layer is fine. CD covers the limit of human hearing. For the vast majority of program it has more than adequate dynamic range.

The only possible program that can marginally benefit from the increased dynamic range of SACD is a few large scale works in the classical repertory, including a few operas. I'm talking about works that go from the softest hush to huge fortissimos. However very few playback systems have the power, dynamic range and signal to noise ratio to benefit. There is nothing in the pop/rock repertory that requires this increase dynamic range.

The only advantage of SACD is multichannel. Even then it is a poor system with different standards between US and Europe and very hard to set up properly. Very, very few multichannel SACD play back systems are set up properly. BD audio only is a much better system.

The idea that there is much program that can benefit from so called "high res" sources over red book CD is totally BOGUS.

I was at a performance of the Verdi Requiem at Orchestra Hall Minneapolis a week ago today.

The a significantly expanded Minnesota Orchestra was joined by the full Minnesota Chorale and a team of four first class soloists. It was a performance for the ages. There where the softest hushed sounds and ear splitting sections. Very few systems could render even a vague facsimile of that performance, and it would require the increased dynamic range some high res formats have over CD. Even then it would have to be captured with the finest digital microphones and digital mix deck. These situations are far and few between and do not arise in the popular culture.

Thanks for the input.

 

[BrianW]

Since you already own the 580, why not just keep the old 580 for SACD, CD, BR and get something else to play your favorite FLAC files on USB and streaming?

I was just rereading this entire thread to see what I've been missing that got Mark so pissed off and I missed this tidbit...

What else could I get that would play my 24 bit Flac files off a USB stick?
I noticed there's a WB Play device but that's only for connection to a TV through HDMI I think.

 

[PENG]

I was just rereading this entire thread to see what I've been missing that got Mark so pissed off and I missed this tidbit...

What else could I get that would play my 24 bit Flac files off a USB stick?
I noticed there's a WB Play device but that's only for connection to a TV through HDMI I think.

There are many choices such as:

http://www.audioholics.com/gadget-reviews/marantz-na8005-network-audio-player

http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/products/network-players/azur-851n

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/ephox/StaticFiles/PUSA/Files/N-50 Single Sheet.pdf

The Pioneer is limited to 96 kHz if you play files on the USB flash drive but can stream 192 kHz. You can also go the AVR and prepro route. The Denon X4000, 4520, and the corresponding Marantz prepros can do those things for you.

Lastly, you must know your Oppo 95 can also play 24bit/192 kHz flac files on usb. If you don't mind using a PC/MAC desktop/laptop then you have more options including much lower cost options.

 

[BrianW]

There are many choices such as:

http://www.audioholics.com/gadget-reviews/marantz-na8005-network-audio-player

http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/products/network-players/azur-851n

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/ephox/StaticFiles/PUSA/Files/N-50 Single Sheet.pdf

The Pioneer is limited to 96 kHz if you play files on the USB flash drive but can stream 192 kHz. You can also go the AVR and prepro route. The Denon X4000, 4520, and the corresponding Marantz prepros can do those things for you.

Lastly, you must know your Oppo 95 can also play 24bit/192 kHz flac files on usb. If you don't mind using a PC/MAC desktop/laptop then you have more options including much lower cost options.

Cheers!
I'll look into those options.
However my Oppo95 isn't an option as it stays in the TV room

 

[PENG]

Cheers!
I'll look into those options.
However my Oppo95 isn't an option as it stays in the TV room

Then get a 105, it is a better streamer and plays more file formats. The video part could be wasted but it is still more cost effective than the Marantz and can do just as much if not more on the audio side.

 

[BrianW]

Then get a 105, it is a better streamer and plays more file formats. The video part could be wasted but it is still more cost effective than the Marantz and can do just as much if not more on the audio side.

I'm still hurting from buying the 95 so spending another Grand unfortunately is not an option for me.

 

[PENG]

Although the Oppo rules out the 24 bit files as there's no USB input.

I thought you said you had the Oppo 95. The 95 has 2 USB inputs.

 

[BrianW]

I thought you said you had the Oppo 95. The 95 has 2 USB inputs.

Sorry for the confusion but I have TWO Oppos.
The 95 in the TV room and the other that I've been discussing is an older model that has no USB port
It's the older Oppo or the Sony that I'll use for my bedroom setup with the headphones.

However, should I consider the Oppo 103?
I could sell my Marantz and get a little to put towards that.
The 105 is unfortunately out of my budget.

 

[PENG]

Sorry for the confusion but I have TWO Oppos.
The 95 in the TV room and the other that I've been discussing is an older model that has no USB port
It's the older Oppo or the Sony that I'll use for my bedroom setup with the headphones.

However, should I consider the Oppo 103?
I could sell my Marantz and get a little to put towards that.
The 105 is unfortunately out of my budget.

It depends, you have said you want to play those files from a USB stick but what are you going to connect the players analog outputs to? Even if the 105 is within your budget, unless you plan on using headphones only, you still need a pair of preamp/amp, integrated amp or a receiver.

 

[BrianW]

It depends, you have said you want to play those files from a USB stick but what are you going to connect the players analog outputs to? Even if the 105 is within your budget, unless you plan on using headphones only, you still need a pair of preamp/amp, integrated amp or a receiver.

It occurred to me last night that the 103 is the upgraded 93 which doesn't specialize in audio like the 95/105.

Anyways, I have a Little Dot MKIII Tube amp that I plug my HD650's into.
I know it's not the greatest but I'd like to know what's better for the same amount.
Like the Oppo I took advantage of people bias against Chinese manufactured products.

 

[PENG]

It occurred to me last night that the 103 is the upgraded 93 which doesn't specialize in audio like the 95/105.

Anyways, I have a Little Dot MKIII Tube amp that I plug my HD650's into.
I know it's not the greatest but I'd like to know what's better for the same amount.
Like the Oppo I took advantage of people bias against Chinese manufactured products.

In that case you can consider the Fiio X5 to play all your 24/192 flac.

http://www.amazon.com/X5-Resolution-Lossless-Music-Player/dp/B00I4Q9S32/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1425828413&sr=1-1&keywords=fiio+x5

I am not aware of any budget prices media player that can do 24/192 via a usb stick. They all cost more and is way bigger than your little headphone amp and they also come with loads of features that you won't be using unless you have a full blown prepro/amp or preamp/amp.

Difference between good CD quality and 24/192 is subtle if audible but if you can hear the difference then good for you. I find the SQ of my X5, 95 (ex), 105, HA-1 almost equally good but I use them for different applications.

 

[BrianW]

"...is way bigger than your little headphone amp"
I'm not sure why this is a problem as I have my little HP amp on top of my Players.

Anyways I came here to find out if the Sony Player I have would play 24bit files from the USB port and if not would that other model I brought up in my first post do it...it appears not.
Also, if I was getting the full SQ from a SACD...strike two.
Regarding the USB port it's too bad WD Play doesn't make a reader for Audio files like it does for video.

The problem with the DAP is It won't play SACDS which I was going to collect more of and I have no idea how to get the SACD's DSD on my PC to put on a DAP.
After extensive Googling It appears only certain PS3's are capable of it.


Anyways, thank you VERY much for you help