Need help putting together new 5.1 system

[BoredSysAdmin]

Everything is a comparison. Before yesterday I had 16 years old compact car and now I'm proud owner of new subaru outback 2015. Is the later is best car in the world? No, but it's huge improvement over my old one.

 

[Ty Wayne]

Agreed. I love those outbacks by the way. Tried to convince my wife to get one but she wasn't having it. I don't know why? I think they are pretty cool!

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Agreed. I love those outbacks by the way. Tried to convince my wife to get one but she wasn't having it. I don't know why? I think they are pretty cool!

New 2015 are redesigned and look amazing. Safe and good value

 

[KEW]

Yeah, I knew the Outlaw was a Hsu design, that is one reason I thought it was a good example. If ImcLoud perceived the Hsu VTF2 to produce substantially more bass than the Rythmik, then I think there was something wrong with his Rythmik. One way or another something doesn't add up.

Is servo required to produce accurate bass? I'm not sure 100%, but SVS subs for example are a textbook flat line, and they do it by EQing, not servo.

Yes, but flattening the FR is only one benefit of the servo.

From Rythmik:

A servo is essential in a subwoofer that aims to be true to the original. The benefits are clear:

No voice coil thermal-induced compression or distortions.

Spider and surround distortion reduced by 6 - 9 dB

Flat frequency response that is less dependent on T/S parameters.

Audiophile bass sound at an affordable price: articulate, tight, transparent, and well-defined bass

Applicable to all subwoofer configurations (including horns, dipole, infinite baffle and others)

Higher output (with better excursion utilization) for sealed, IB, and Dipole subs.

These benefits are all unique to a servo controlled subwoofer, and can't be achieved in a practical and affordable way in a conventional subwoofer.

About 2 months ago, I would have written much of the above off as marketing hype, but since then I have had dual Rythmik E15HP's and dual JL Audio E112's in my listening room set up for comparison. The bass from the Rythmiks is tighter! Not by a lot, but definitely tighter. This is the exact opposite of my expectations and totally blew my mind!
What I am saying is the DS1510 driver below:

is tighter than:

I have to believe it is the servo technology that does it, because it certainly is not the mechanical design of the driver (the Rythmik driver is not bad, but it is not JL Audio caliber).

This is why I am starting to recommend Rythmik over the competition. The servo seems a very worthwhile technology (assuming you want musical accuracy).

That said, if you are used to lot's of rumble, the Rythmik can sound dry - and this can make the Rythmik seem less powerful in HT applications, but listening to music, it becomes clear that the Rythmik is staying true to the source.

 

[KEW]

But you know what? I haven't heard either of them! So I wont know the difference, and after 15 years of listening to my old POS 8" Kenwood (SW-32HT), I think Im gonna be pretty freakin happy with the LV12R!

Quite true, but I always have that nagging fear that after I get my new toys home and setup and return period expires, I will go someplace and hear something better that costs less.
Truth be told, we narrow the options to good options for you and while I believe there are differences between the Hsu and the Rythmik, I doubt they are very obvious unless you could A-B them without a time gap between them.
For my comparison of the above subs, I have two identical systems with the subs being the only difference. They are level matched and once I mute one receiver, every time I hit the mute button, the active receiver switches between them. Without this, I might get some vague sense that one sounds better than the other, but never have total confidence in defining the specific differences.

 

[herbu]

I always have that nagging fear that after I get my new toys home and setup and return period expires, I will go someplace and hear something better that costs less.

Thus the Audioholics analogy to a disease.

It's like wingshooting. One expert says there are only 3 leads... a little, some, and a lot. But there those who debate 3' vs 4', or 6' vs 7', etc.

In audio, you could say there are only 3 types of systems... poor, good, and very good. But again, there are those who debate the virtue of 2Hz or 1dB. Those, (we), are the audioholics who enjoy the analysis, the theoretical, and the debate.

Ty, you are putting together a system that will sound better than 99.x% of the people out there. Now you only have to determine if you have the disease. Can you come home and simply enjoy your system, or will you find yourself constantly wondering "what if", and join the ranks of the afflicted?

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

KEW, I'm not an expert but I think tight bass can be achieved by lower Q. Hsu vtf series subs allow variable Q, including very low Q at 0.3.
I hope someone like @Tlsguy could clarify this

 

[fuzz092888]

TLS Guy mentioned Q in regard to woofers. It is an important feature of speakers, but it can be a difficult topic to understand. So I thought I would add to what he said. For anything that vibrates or resonates, I think of Q as a shape or slope of a response curve.

An electrical filter will oscillate or ring, to some extent, after the signal stops. The steeper the slope of this filter, the longer it will ring. Similarly, the higher the Q value of this filter, the more it will ring. Mechanical filters work the same way.

Speaker cabinets act as mechanical high-pass filters for woofers or subwoofers mounted in them. It passes frequencies above the cut-off or low frequency limit of the design, and the signal rolls off below this point at a rate determined by the design. The cabinet dimensions affect the characteristics of the high-pass filter, letting a designer tune the woofer’s bass response. A sealed cabinet acts essentially as a 2nd order high-pass filter, and a vented enclosure typically resembles a 4th order high-pass filter.

This figure shows the low end of the frequency response curves of a woofer in various sized boxes with different system QTC.

Ideally, a woofer will respond to a single bass tone by starting and stopping soon afterwards. A vented design will continue to respond (ringing or oscillating) about twice as long after the signal stops, as a sealed design. This transient response can be visualized in an impulse response curve, where a single pulse of sound is introduced, and the response is graphed vs. time.

The total system Q of the woofer combined with cabinet is a ratio of values (with no units) that defines both the shape of the frequency response curve roll-off. It also determines the amount of damping to oscillation or ringing after the signal stops. This is also spoken of as “transient response”. QTC is the term for sealed cabinets, and the similar QTS term is for ported reflex cabinets.

A sealed enclosure with a QTC of 0.5 is considered a “critically damped alignment”. An impulse response curve shows that it responds to the initial pulse and has little or no overshoot. For a given driver, a QTC of 0.5 requires the largest box. This low Q alignment has a downward-sloping response curve, but offers the best possible transient performance and the lowest frequency extension at -10dB.

A system QTC of 0.577 (also known as a Bessel alignment) has the most linear phase response and offers slightly less damping than Q = 0.5.

When QTC = 0.707 (a Butterworth alignment) there will be the flattest frequency vs. amplitude response. This is a common alignment for woofers because it offers a fuller sound, while still being reasonably well damped.

System QTC near 1.0 delivers a peaked response, but allows the smallest box size still considered by some to be acceptable. A woofer with a QTC larger than 1.0 is a boom box with a peaked response curve, and an impulse response that rings and rings. Guess where most less expensive home theater subwoofers fall? Woofers and subwoofers that play on after the signal has stopped (due to a high Q and the resulting ringing) sound slow and muddy.

This next figure (sorry about the size, it was the best I could find) shows the amount of ringing in the impulse response curves where QTC ranges from 0.5 to 2.0.


Looking at the first figure, it is easy to say, “Go for that big response where Q is 2 and get the most bass response for your money” High Q drivers usually do have less expensive small magnets, so this certainly will cost less. But along with the illusion of great bass at low cost is the hidden cost of lack of control over the movement of the woofer cone. It allows a big response around the woofer’s resonance frequency, but furnishes poor control over transients, causing muddy sounding or ringing bass. The second figure shows the response of a impulse response graphs of speaker several different QTC values. QTC of 2 hangs on the longest after the pulse has ended, much like the ringing of a bell. As QTC gets lower, the ringing ends sooner.

 

[Ty Wayne]

Thus the Audioholics analogy to a disease.

It's like wingshooting. One expert says there are only 3 leads... a little, some, and a lot. But there those who debate 3' vs 4', or 6' vs 7', etc.

In audio, you could say there are only 3 types of systems... poor, good, and very good. But again, there are those who debate the virtue of 2Hz or 1dB. Those, (we), are the audioholics who enjoy the analysis, the theoretical, and the debate.

Ty, you are putting together a system that will sound better than 99.x% of the people out there. Now you only have to determine if you have the disease. Can you come home and simply enjoy your system, or will you find yourself constantly wondering "what if", and join the ranks of the afflicted?

I hear you herbu. Time will tell if I truly have the disease, though I must say, its not looking good. I haven't even gotten my sub yet, and Im already thinking about bigger and better subs, as well as speakers! But the truth is, my 340's and 170's are way more than I actually need. My wife has been bitchin everyday since I received them cause I listen too loud for her taste, LOL. But the point is, I day dream about when I'll be able to save up for something bigger and better, maybe some Sierra towers, definitely a better receiver at some point, at least a second LV12R in the short term. The main area Im struggling with right now is my understanding of the audio world. Im simply uneducated about sooo much! I've been reading a lot, but I think its just going to take some time. We shall see where it all leads!

 

[Ty Wayne]

So you have discovered the blue link bar at the top of the page, yes? Home theatre setup-subwoofer setup. Not sure if that's what you meant by "sticky". A ton of good info all over this forum.

Depending on your speakers, your room acoustics and, the rate your crossover drops off, your crossover point may change. The default crossover on your receiver is 100hz. This also happens to be the lowest rated freq for those speakers. Typically you would want to set crossover about one octave above rated response. I would leave x-over on receiver at 100, sub x-over (not volume) all the way up, and run mcacc. From there, work with speaker placement as a means of smoothing the sound out. If you decide to up the x-over on your receiver to 120hz, your sub will already be set. Just remember to turn down the volume before making any changes. It makes it tough to do A/B comparisons, but until you get to the point of having a good idea of what's going to happen when you make changes, it's the safest route.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_crossover

Well, still waiting on my LV12R. Until then, I have a question. Im still using my old kenwood (SW-35HT). I have my x-over set at 80. I ran mcacc the day I got my Ascends hooked up, but something has had me confused ever since. Running mcacc sets my sub down to -14. This surprises me. Why would it turn my sub down so low? What should I expect it to be set at? I mean, my room is about a 2200 cubit foot room. One wall is all windows, and the room itself has 5 doorways in it. I could understand the calibration setting my sub down to -14 if I were in a sealed room or if I had a powerful sub, but that's far from the case. What am I missing?

 

[ImcLoud]

OK, sorry I have not been on here in a bit, just got the message, we have been crazy busy here with the snow and the snow and oh yeah the more snow...


So VTF2 vs lv12, as you know I bought both, heres the thing, the vtf2 is a special sub, when I was buying it I demoe'd many subs, so when I heard people comparing the lv12 to it, I said I have to try it, I did and whether its because I was expecting more or not, the vtf2 excels in output and clear sound. I think the lv12 was hyped up for me too much, like "servo" is super clean and loud, well I was expecting the sub to be better than the vtf 2 in all areas and it simply put was not in any...

I have had many people listen to them both, I gave the lv12 to my mother and she has it unplugged lol because she said its too loud, but when me and my brothers go there for holidays and parties we flip it on and shake the house a bit, but I can clearly tell the sub is not as nice as the vtf2, even at lower levels when not being pushed...

An update for you guys too, I also got to hear the lv12 in another persons house, we were in New jersey at my wifes cousins engagement party and the relative throwing the party had a pair of them {they also had an outlaw pre pro and outlaw amp with emptek mains, so obviously a ID guy like me}, we talked for a while about everything and I didn't bring up the fact that I liked the vtf better to him, but he loved his ly12's and bought them 1 at a time {1 new the second used}, his system was nice, but I have dual vtf2's in a larger room and it sounds much much better {now, I did not tell him that and I hope he never stumbles across this thread because I know he gets a lot of info from forums}..

So anyway to recap, the vtf2 seems to have cleaner output and more of it, not that I listen to rap music very often but when a movie comes on and the music is bassy r&b or rap with synth bass beats, the vtf2's sound incredible, and when I was testing the lv12 my mother had the "rolling in the deep cd" on the counter so I threw it in, and the bass was no where near what the vtf2 does with that song...


One more note, I am not saying rythmik subs are bad I heard a sealed 15" and it was super nice, musical and just a really nice sub all around... Although I love the uls15 I would lean towards the 15hp {I believe that was the number} either way...

 

[Ty Wayne]

No worries ImcLoud. I had actually already forgotten that I messaged you, but thanks for your reply. I went ahead and decided to keep my order in on the LV12R. I've read absolutely great things about both the HSU's and Rythmik. Considering what I've got right now for a "sub", I think I'll be more than happy with the LV12R. Hopefully I will be able to add a second next year. Thanks again.

 

[JohnnieB]

Sorry Ty, I have never had or used any auto room correction so I probably can't be much help on this one. Ive had so many expenses lately, and my PC is having issues, so my desire to play with REW hasnt come to fruition yet. Someone who is familiar with room correction software should post with a more helpful response. I suspect your getting a pretty strong peak due to room interaction, that mcacc is trying to compensate for. I would try placing the sub in some different locations and see what that does.
How does the sub sound to you?

 

[Ty Wayne]

How does the sub sound to you?

That's just it JB, everything sounds really good to me. But, I have somewhat virgin ears too, so who knows? Im thinking once I get a taste of the Rythmik I'll be asking myself why I never noticed how bad my kenwood sub really was. I mean, I have nothing to base my opinion on. All I've ever had is that old kenwood. It just kind of sits there and rumbles a little bit, LOL. Im just too inexperienced to say one way or the other.

Nevertheless, the issue isn't so much that I think I can get this sub to sound better or have better base, its just that I expected the exact opposite of what actually happened (the calibration setting my sub to -14). That threw me. Just going from memory, it put my front left at -1, center at -7, right at -3, surrounds somewhere around -7, but then the sub is -14. Maybe that's completely normal. I dunno?

Next time Im off, I'll try moving it to a different location and running mcacc again. Couple of more weeks, then I can see what happens with the LV12R.

 

[JohnnieB]

Let me know what the mcacc does when you move the sub.

 

[herbu]

Running mcacc sets my sub down to -14. This surprises me. Why would it turn my sub down so low?

Ty, do you have a volume/gain knob on the sub itself? The higher you set that knob, the more your room correction will try to lower it. I have the knob on one sub set at ~3:00 to get Audyssey set at about 0.

Try lowering the volume on the sub, and rerun. I don't know mcacc, but if I remember right, Audyssey has a limit of +/- 12dB. I like to keep Audyssey somewhere near the middle so I have max flexibility with the remote.

 

[Ty Wayne]

Will do JB.

Herbu, yes, I do have the gain turned all the way up on the sub. That's probably the issue. I guess I just never expected my sub to produce much (even with the gain turned up) so that the receiver would set it at -14. I'll mess with it some more when Im off, including moving it to a different location.

While we are on the subject Herbu, do you find yourself needing to turn up/down the sub with the remote often, depending on what content you are playing? How much do you find yourself either having to increase or decrease the level?

 

[herbu]

While we are on the subject Herbu, do you find yourself needing to turn up/down the sub with the remote often, depending on what content you are playing? How much do you find yourself either having to increase or decrease the level?

No, I rarely change the volume to either of the subs. My Denon X4000 does a couple things that take care of it. It lets me configure a default setting for various sources and modes.

First, I adjusted the gain on the back of each sub so that Audyssey room correction was zero, or very close.

Then I assigned the subs for TV and Movies to be +3dB, (up from the Audyssey setting).
I assigned the subs for Music to be 0dB, (no change from the Audyssey setting).
So when I select CBL/SAT or BLURAY on the X4000 remote, it automatically assigns the levels I set for TV and Movies.
When I select CD or NETWORK, it automatically assigns the levels I set for Music.

Occasionally when I want a big Bing/Bang/Boom movie to especially rock the house, I'll tweak up the subs ~3dB. But that's pretty rare because if the content is there, they already hit hard enough to rattle a glass of tea off the table.

I usually listen to music in Stereo, and since I got the Phil3 speakers, I use Stereo Direct, so no subs. On the occasions when I especially want a stronger bass thump, I'll just turn off Direct to engage the subs. I never have to tweak the sub volume for music.

 

[Ty Wayne]

"they already hit hard enough to rattle a glass of tea off the table."

Sounds great Herbu! Thx for the info as usual!

 

[Ty Wayne]

Just wanted to give a bit of an update. I've still been waiting on that dang LV12R! Remember, it was originally back ordered until "mid-February". Got an email from Ascend last night giving me an update (love Ascend!). Basically, the cargo is sitting off the coast of Long Beach waiting to be unloaded, and if you haven't read the news lately, the port situation is not good! They are all backed up for now and who knows how long it will be for that to be remedied. Here is Dina's email to me:

"There is a bad backlog at the Long Beach port in California. Their shipment was suppose to arrive
here on the 17th and then to Houston on the 26th. Apparently the port
here closed down for four business days and there has been a major
slowdown in operations. Everything is now in limbo until the Long Beach
port gets there act together. I apologize for the delay but
unfortunately it is out of our hands."

I live in Texas, so that part about "Houston on the 26th" is whats important to me, as my sub would come from Austin. Its pretty obvious that the shipment wont be in Houston by the 26th with the way things are going. Who knows how much longer I would have to wait!?!? I've already been waiting since the first part of January.

So, I decided to go a different route. I basically narrowed it down to two choices. Either the Rythmik F15HP or the HSU VTF-3 MK5. Both choices = more money. The LV12R was going to cost me $569 shipped. The F15HP would cost me $1182 shipped, and the HSU $888 shipped.

I went with the HSU. Hope Im going to be happy with my decision.

I have read a great deal about the LV12R and already pretty much knew how I was going to set it up. I've studied the back of that LV12R pretty hard for the past month and a half! Now I feel like Im starting over with the HSU.

Is there anything I need to know? Anyone have any tips for me?