Parasound Volume Pot part two

[AcuDefTechGuy]

A great DAC and 2-channel preamp serves the needs for the OP 2-channel system.
I think many underestimate the impact of digital stream handling.

2 sides to every story.

A great AVR that costs less than a "great DAC and 2-Ch preamp" also serves the needs of most people for a 2-Ch system.

I think many guys OVER-estimate the impact of digital stream handling and everything else too.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You're still trying to get me there.
In any case is it possible to run the Denon x4000 as a pre and be able to use my ATI amp?

You can absolutely do that with the X4000.

But if buy it, get Best Buy to price match Amazon for the $800 price. That way you can easily return it to Best Buy if you change your mind in 1 or 2 weeks (or whatever their return policy is).

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think you can, and have already convinced some on this forum but there is no hope to convince everyone or even the majority. As far as I know you have the fully differential AVP and fully differential ATI amps plus the best "affordable" speakers and don't seem to hear much better sound than your AVRs yet you can't even convince a single person that differential is overrated let alone the perceived much larger gap between a good AVR and an good pair of separate prepro/amp. On the serious side, I always have doubt about the lower priced fully differential amps because I know you get what you paid for; and therefore am concerned about the negative effects from slight mismatch of components (even when new) inherent with that design.

I can try to convince guys until my face turns green and they still won't believe me.

All the "differences" or "enhancements" that guys talk about in most audio cases are often very subtle, not astronomical differences or enhancements like going from 480i to 1080p video resolution, especially if they were to actually VOLUME LEVEL MATCH.

When you are comparing 2 identical 83" TVs with 480i vs 1080p, 100% of people (who aren't blind) will see the astronomical improvement.

With audio amp/AVR/preamp/pre-pro (when level matched and involves more than 2 guys @ home), it seems only 50% of guys can tell a difference. The rest of us (other 50%) can't tell any significant improvement at all.

 

[slipperybidness]

I can try to convince guys until my face turns green and they still won't believe me.

All the "differences" or "enhancements" that guys talk about in most audio cases are often very subtle, not astronomical differences or enhancements like going from 480i to 1080p video resolution, especially if they were to actually VOLUME LEVEL MATCH.

When you are comparing 2 identical 83" TVs with 480i vs 1080p, 100% of people (who aren't blind) will see the astronomical improvement.

With audio (when level matched), it seems only 50% of guys can even tell a "difference", much less an ACTUAL IMPROVEMENT.

Heck, I'll take it a step farther.

Even if the sound is improved, there is a good chance that the inferior sound may be the preferred sound!

We see it all the time with audiophiles and tube aficionados, they prefer the distorted sound!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Heck, I'll take it a step farther.

Even if the sound is improved, there is a good chance that the inferior sound may be the preferred sound!

We see it all the time with audiophiles and tube aficionados, they prefer the distorted sound!

True. A "difference" does not automatically mean an "improvement". People have different preferences.

But when properly level matched, I'm saying the difference isn't astronomical. There may be a difference. There is no guarantee the difference is preferred. But the difference isn't colossal.

 

[PENG]

I think the OP should probably try the X4000 if it is so "cheap", worse case return it or use it for HT. It is just incredibly cheap, but wait, the 4520 is even cheaper relatively, half the price of the virtually identical twin AV8801 if you don't need the balanced I/Os.

 

[sharkman]

This is a strange thread, with many side bars and agendas being pushed. That said, I wonder if the hiss issue is from noisy power, or some other interference within the set up. Perhaps it was there all along, and was never noticed until more efficient or forward speakers got into the mix.

I really doubt that Parasound makes a P5 with a noisy volume. Others would have noticed it and it would be all over the net by now.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

What is disconcerting is that the OP bought 2 different P5s (1 silver, 1 black) from 2 different dealers (1 dealer was Audio Advisor) at about 6 months apart.

Yet, both P5s had the same exact noise problem.

 

[TLS Guy]

What is disconcerting is that the OP bought 2 different P5s (1 silver, 1 black) from 2 different dealers (1 dealer was Audio Advisor) at about 6 months apart.

Yet, both P5s had the same exact noise problem.

I have followed this thread with interest.

I guess Parasound did not want to use a digital volume control.

These days there is a problem, as ganged pots are virtually unobtainable. So circuits have been developed that allow control of as many channels as you want with one mono cursor.

Now since op amp have become common the usual variable resistor inline with the audio signal has been out of favor a long time. The better way to control volume is to have the pot modify the feedback loop of the op amp. This has the advantage of raising headroom and lowering noise as the volume is decreased. However it still takes a pot per channel.

Now that ganged pots are virtually unobtainable, there has to be another solution to analog volume control.

One way is to alter the control voltage to the chips in all channels at one time with a single pot. This produces excellent tracking.

However, I have found out that any noise in the control voltage circuit is enormously amplified. So the single pot that in the old fashioned approach would be fine, now isn't.

I have looked at various ways to solve this.

One way is to increase the control voltage by a factor of 10 and then attenuate and filter it. This seems to work quite well.

So if this is the case with the Parasound, then the control voltage may not take into account the noise that can creep into the control voltage control circuit.

Back in the day, manufacturers used to issue the full circuit in every user manual. Quad always did this. Peter Walker, and others, were only too pleased to have knowledgeable customers improve their products, and were always grateful for an assist.

In a problem like this it would be very likely others would assist with this problem if the circuit were included.

 

[ematthews]

Good info everyone. Thanks. I couldn't believe it when I heard it on the second one. I was like " No, not again"....... To be honest, the only product brand that has never given me any issues is Marantz. However every Marantz product I own is built in Japan.

 

[RichB]

2 sides to every story.

A great AVR that costs less than a "great DAC and 2-Ch preamp" also serves the needs of most people for a 2-Ch system.

I think many guys OVER-estimate the impact of digital stream handling and everything else too.

Many think everything sounds the same, yet still buy separates. Audio-rack jewelry?

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Many think everything sounds the same, yet still buy separates. Audio-rack jewelry?

- Rich

Not the same, but just realistic insignificance not worth perturbing or bragging.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Good info everyone. Thanks. I couldn't believe it when I heard it on the second one. I was like " No, not again"....... To be honest, the only product brand that has never given me any issues is Marantz. However every Marantz product I own is built in Japan.

Should have gotten a Marantz pre-pro.

 

[RichB]

Not the same, but just realistic insignificance not worth perturbing or bragging.

A comparison and lack of sound quality differences between your AVP and Denon AVR's is not disputed by me.
Yet, somehow differences with sound quality with various components in my system are invalid.
Just because I have an experience and opinion different from yours does not warrant impugning my motives.

I have done many listening sessions comparing digital inputs from the same source to the same processor and the sound difference were obvious.
It is unclear what causes this difference but I would like to understand it.

- Rich

 

[sharkman]

A comparison and lack of sound quality differences between your AVP and Denon AVR's is not disputed by me.
Yet, somehow differences with sound quality with various components in my system are invalid.
Just because I have an experience and opinion different from yours does not warrant impugning my motives.

I have done many listening sessions comparing digital inputs from the same source to the same processor and the sound difference were obvious.
It is unclear what causes this difference but I would like to understand it.

- Rich

Yep, I've experienced that know-it-all attitude on this forum repeatedly. It's probably why this place gets so little traffic/posts, I know I come here very little anymore. I guess you've got more patience than I do Rich.

 

[PENG]

Should have gotten a Marantz pre-pro.

That's a great point. For the OP, now the AV8802 is out the AV8801 brand new is going for under $2K. I wish I waited 18 months longer.

 

[PENG]

Yep, I've experienced that know-it-all attitude on this forum repeatedly. It's probably why this place gets so little traffic/posts, I know I come here very little anymore. I guess you've got more patience than I do Rich.

I don't hear the obvious differences that Rich heard between different digital inputs either but that's no reasons for us not to talk and share info/experience between each other and forums are great for that and that's why we are here. Same for you, I hope..

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yet, somehow differences with sound quality with various components in my system are invalid

I never said your opinion was invalid.

I'm just expressing my opinion on the subject - that I think when level matched, the difference is very subtle and mostly insignificant, certainly not worth a thousand dollar or more.

If your experience shows that even when level matched the difference is astronomical and shocking, then that is your opinion.

We are all just expressing opinions. Nothing more.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yep, I've experienced that know-it-all attitude on this forum repeatedly. It's probably why this place gets so little traffic/posts, I know I come here very little anymore. I guess you've got more patience than I do Rich.

It's called expressing your opinions.

Has anyone said, "You are wrong, I am correct, end of story", or "I know more than you, you don't know what you are talking about" ?

Some people believe this, some people believe that, they disagree, they are just expressing their opinions and disagreement.

They do this on every forum - they disagree and they express their opinions.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That's a great point. For the OP, now the AV8802 is out the AV8801 brand new is going for under $2K. I wish I waited 18 months longer.

It's amazing how a component goes from $4K value to $2K value in 1 year!

Or from $2.5K to $1K (Denon 4520).

Perhaps many guys will learn from our mistakes. Lesson - wait 1 year for the next model to come out and save 50%-70%.