Active vs Passive Speakers. Budget ~10k

[TLS Guy]

As a long time owner of the Signature IIs, I dare say the Signature SE would be a massive upgrade for your front mains. My dream front L/R speakers are the Legacy Focus SE, and for the center speaker the Marquis! Maybe some day...

I highly doubt that!

1/6 octave smoothing.

No subs required! Each speaker powered by three amps, providing 750 watts.

 

[mtrot]

I highly doubt that!

1/6 octave smoothing.

No subs required! Each speaker powered by three amps, providing 750 watts.

LOL, those are mighty impressive, but my reply was to the OP, who has -- "Fronts: B&W CM8".

 

[spike99]

As a long time owner of the Signature IIs, I dare say the Signature SE would be a massive upgrade for your front mains. My dream front L/R speakers are the Legacy Focus SE, and for the center speaker the Marquis! Maybe some day...

FYI,

I would have loved to consider the FOCUS SE, but I don't have the space for them... Instead I looked at Signature.

Auditioned the Signature and ML (Montis & Ethos)... I auditioned at 2 different places... ML were playing high res audio and I was not able to play my song for Legacy... Looks like flac is not compatible with apple and I had no choice but play music with Spotify.... I do want to re-do audition possibly burning music to a CD... And even though environments are different... at least listen to same music...

Going in.. I did not think much about ML compared to Legacy... I suppose I did not think ML were good for HT... but I came out a believer of ML (Found Montis better than Ethos).... I found the ML very clear and almost 3D effect... I did not think Signature was as clear (possibly cause I was listening to Spotify) and I did not feel that effect compared to ML...

Auditioning the Signature... the guy put the speaker level really high and my ears came out ringing (high SPL definitely)... Also, the cabinetry for Signature is first class..

I'll do another audition... but I think ML is for me...

I may need to replace my current 6ft speaker cable... I'll need a pair of 7ft cable... Since I place my amp on left side of TV stand... Cable hardly reaches RT speaker. I know there's a lot of debate whether Speaker cables are worth... Currently looking at Audioquest "Castle Rock" and "Rocket 88".

What do you say... these Audioquest good ?

 

[andy19191]

Above that, passive crossover filters get the job done at a lower cost (today) than a system with all active filters.

I would expect a good passive crossover speaker plus amplifier to be more expensive these days than a good active speaker plus controller.

Compared to an active speaker a passive speaker requires an amplifier to supply more power, over the full range 20Hz-20kHz and into a more difficult load. An active design can use a cheap and efficient class D design for high power at low frequencies and a lower power class AB design for the high frequencies to avoid the issues class D designs typically have at these frequencies. Power supplies are expensive as are high power amplifier modules covering the full frequency spectrum into difficult loads. Even though an active design will need 2 or 3 power amplifier modules compared to the 1 power amplifier module for the passive design the larger and more expensive power supply plus the requirement for substantially higher performance from that single module is likely to lead to the amplifiers for a passive design being more expensive.

The crossover for a good active design involves a few microprocessors on a circuit board. The crossover for a good passive design involves significant numbers of large components made of expensive materials. Good passive crossovers are very expensive and likely to be substantially more expensive than a good active crossover.

The continuing use of passive crossovers in home audio is an interesting topic given they have all but disappeared in other sectors like professional audio. They are technically inferior and likely to be more expensive but there seems to be little demand for them from consumers.

 

[andy19191]

There is a particular problem with three ways however, which I don't think I have discussed before. In a passive design the woofer always has to be least sensitive driver. This is an absolute requirement. So the mid range (bandpass) driver will be more sensitive.

The woofer/s in a passive 3 way often have higher sensitivities than the midrange/s and yet, as you say, the midrange may still be padded down. The reason is that the low frequency sound from the woofer normally radiates uniformly in all directions whereas the sound from a midrange on a baffle tends to radiate mainly forwards. So even though the midrange is pumping out less energy if you stand in front of the speaker the midrange may well be louder than the woofer.

 

[pachieh]

You have to use an add-on software for FLAC to work with iTunes. PureMusic (my favorite) or Audirvana are two of the best. JRiver is a stands alone player that works very well also.

Audioquest is good, but read the numerous articles in here about the myth of cables. You don't need to spend a lot to get high performance. I run cheaper AQ for my XLRs, and then regular on-call speaker cables I made on all my speakers. Nothing fancy, you don't need to spend what AQ charges for Castle Rock or Rocket 88. Save the money to spend on room treatments.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[mtrot]

FYI,

I would have loved to consider the FOCUS SE, but I don't have the space for them... Instead I looked at Signature.

Auditioned the Signature and ML (Montis & Ethos)... I auditioned at 2 different places... ML were playing high res audio and I was not able to play my song for Legacy... Looks like flac is not compatible with apple and I had no choice but play music with Spotify.... I do want to re-do audition possibly burning music to a CD... And even though environments are different... at least listen to same music...

Going in.. I did not think much about ML compared to Legacy... I suppose I did not think ML were good for HT... but I came out a believer of ML (Found Montis better than Ethos).... I found the ML very clear and almost 3D effect... I did not think Signature was as clear (possibly cause I was listening to Spotify) and I did not feel that effect compared to ML...

Auditioning the Signature... the guy put the speaker level really high and my ears came out ringing (high SPL definitely)... Also, the cabinetry for Signature is first class..

I'll do another audition... but I think ML is for me...

I may need to replace my current 6ft speaker cable... I'll need a pair of 7ft cable... Since I place my amp on left side of TV stand... Cable hardly reaches RT speaker. I know there's a lot of debate whether Speaker cables are worth... Currently looking at Audioquest "Castle Rock" and "Rocket 88".

What do you say... these Audioquest good ?

Contrary to what many people say, I hear clear sound differences between different speaker cables. IMO, Audioquest is one of the best long-time cable companies. I can't comment on Castle Rock or Rocket 88, but I picked up a set of the CV-8 from Music Direct on close out(about half price) and they present a nice soundstage with good imaging.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

In fact I would say that a huge number of home audio systems are inferior to stock car systems now, in many important parameters.

As I have said before, for the vast majority of the public, the best audio system they own is in their cars.

Yeah, sure, if you are talking about home audio systems made of Bose, HTIB, and TV speakers.

Most PASSIVE home audio systems from RBH, Revel, KEF, Salk/Philharmonic, Ascend, PSB, Paradigm, Golden-Ear, Definitive Tech, NHT, Focal, B&W, SVS, XTZ, etc., are 100% better than most ACTIVE car audio systems.

 

[TLS Guy]

Yeah, sure, if you are talking about home audio systems made of Bose, HTIB, and TV speakers.

Most PASSIVE home audio systems from RBH, Revel, KEF, Salk/Philharmonic, Ascend, PSB, Paradigm, Golden-Ear, Definitive Tech, NHT, Focal, B&W, SVS, XTZ, etc., are 100% better than most ACTIVE car audio systems.

Yes, but very few homes have decent sound systems in them any more. I can tell you one thing, my car system sounds a lot better then any Bose system or HTIB and actually better then a lot of systems in prestigious Hi-Fi dealers I have heard. It certainly sounds better than any Paradigm I have ever heard and a few others you mention in that list.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I've got to agree with TLS Guy, at least for high end car audio systems. Look at it this way, designing an ML system for a Lexus is like designing a system for a specific room, and then duplicating the system and the room thousands of times, so you get massive economies of scale in tuning compared to home systems.

The audio systems in our cars are actually pretty good, in the Mercedes sport sedan really good, but the only thing I ever listen to in a car is NPR, and only during a morning or evening commute. I never listen on longer drives, especially in the sports cars. To paraphrase a line from The Quiet Man, when I drive I drive, and when I listen to music I listen to music.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I've got to agree with TLS Guy, at least for high end car audio systems.

Yes, I agree that $2,350 Mark Levinson car audio systems sound fantastic.

But MOST car systems aren't high-end systems, just like MOST home systems aren't high-end.

So if we're talking about MOST car systems, then there is no way car systems sound better than most home systems, including Paradigm that TLS Guy mentioned.

 

[walter duque]

Yes, I agree that $2,350 Mark Levinson car audio systems sound fantastic.

But MOST car systems aren't high-end systems, just like MOST home systems aren't high-end.

So if we're talking about MOST car systems, then there is no way car systems sound better than most home systems, including Paradigm that TLS Guy mentioned.

I had a 79 Trans Am with a 10k audio system. Car cost less than the sound system. I was the loudest kid on the block. I have the Mark Levinson drivers under my bed (from the front doors, they look like 6X9 but they must be crossed over since there is a tweeter, mid range and the bottom bass driver. I don't recall what replacement cost is right now but in the 100's. I've seen better made drivers at $19.95 a pair then those Mark Levinson's. I'll dig them out later and post them for you if you wish, pure junk.
These are the high end drivers from my Lexus. They must weigh at least 1/2 pound the pair.

 

[TLS Guy]

Yes, I agree that $2,350 Mark Levinson car audio systems sound fantastic.

But MOST car systems aren't high-end systems, just like MOST home systems aren't high-end.

So if we're talking about MOST car systems, then there is no way car systems sound better than most home systems, including Paradigm that TLS Guy mentioned.

My car is not a troublesome German exotic. It's a Chevy Equinox, admittedly the top LTZ package with Sat. NAV that gets you the top of the line audio system from Pioneer.

The system is first class. The thing I like is that it is perfectly balanced. It has lots of power and I have never heard it clip or run out of steam. You never localize to a speaker and it has a good sound stage. The sub is not the deepest, but very well integrated and never intrudes and is nice and tight. On the way down here on Tuesday I listened to the St Paul Chamber Orchestra Messiah broadcast. It was a total pleasure to listen to on that system. This system was designed by the former KEF audio team, persuaded to go over to Pioneer. So the system has a good pedigree.

When I heard the top of the line three way speakers from Paradigm, the final movement of the Sibelius second symphony was excruciating. I popped the disc in my car, and it was a vastly better experience.

I'm certain that in the car environment the lack of passive crossovers, plays a crucial part in making this system excellent.

If we can get it this good in a car, which I regard as a difficult environment, I'm convinced we could do a lot better for the money with home audio by adopting the same practices.

I would say my car system is superior to pretty much everything on offer in the local Magnolia showrooms.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I was just going to make similarly positive comments about a recent base model Camaro rental car.

 

[TLS Guy]

I was just going to make similarly positive comments about a recent base model Camaro rental car.

I think the car audio people have made astounding progress of late. However they have a huge market, and there millions of dollars in investment makes sense.

we forget the home audio market is niche and does not justify that R & D. I do fear home audio is dwindling on the vine so to speak and becoming a technological no man's land and back water.

 

[spike99]

You have to use an add-on software for FLAC to work with iTunes. PureMusic (my favorite) or Audirvana are two of the best. JRiver is a stands alone player that works very well also.

Audioquest is good, but read the numerous articles in here about the myth of cables. You don't need to spend a lot to get high performance. I run cheaper AQ for my XLRs, and then regular on-call speaker cables I made on all my speakers. Nothing fancy, you don't need to spend what AQ charges for Castle Rock or Rocket 88. Save the money to spend on room treatments.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, this was the problem... attempting to play flac on Apple did not go well.

I will try to convert flac to some other format that Apple plays... and then burn to a CD.

Checked ML Montis owners manual and it states the following:
Use the best speaker cables you can. Higher quality cable, available from your specialty dealer, is recommended and will give you superior performance. Spade connectors are suggested for optimum contact and ease of installation.

I suppose since there is so much debate on this topic... I don't expect that there is a night and day difference bet using decent speaker cables and expensive ones...

 

[TLS Guy]

Yes, this was the problem... attempting to play flac on Apple did not go well.

I will try to convert flac to some other format that Apple plays... and then burn to a CD.

Checked ML Montis owners manual and it states the following:
Use the best speaker cables you can. Higher quality cable, available from your specialty dealer, is recommended and will give you superior performance. Spade connectors are suggested for optimum contact and ease of installation.

I suppose since there is so much debate on this topic... I don't expect that there is a night and day difference bet using decent speaker cables and expensive ones...

I just cooked my self a modest breakfast this morning. I sat down at the breakfast table to eat it. My wife promptly came and placed a place mat under the mat and assured me it would taste much better with a mat under it. I said: "I don't think so".

The point is the food is the food however wrapped and wire is wire.

 

[Swerd]

Checked ML Montis owners manual and it states the following:
Use the best speaker cables you can. Higher quality cable, available from your specialty dealer, is recommended and will give you superior performance. Spade connectors are suggested for optimum contact and ease of installation.

I suppose since there is so much debate on this topic... I don't expect that there is a night and day difference bet using decent speaker cables and expensive ones...

You would be right about that expectation. There will not be a night and day difference. I'd go so far as to say there cannot be a night and day difference.

"Use the best speaker cables you can." This statement leaves open a lot of different interpretations. Any copper zip cord of adequate gauge, 14 or 12 gauge, is good enough to qualify as "the best speaker cables". Anything more is highly likely to be a waste of money.

I've never understood the advice to use spade connectors. They very often fall off the speaker binding posts because speaker vibrations loosen the threads. If you're unlucky it can cause an amp-killing short. I've known at least one person who used a wrench to tighten the nut on the binding post so his massive "audiophile grade" spades wouldn't fall off again. He succeeded in breaking off the brass binding post. Avoid that trouble by avoiding spades.

 

[djreef]

My car is not a troublesome German exotic. It's a Chevy Equinox, admittedly the top LTZ package with Sat. NAV that gets you the top of the line audio system from Pioneer.

The system is first class. The thing I like is that it is perfectly balanced. It has lots of power and I have never heard it clip or run out of steam. You never localize to a speaker and it has a good sound stage. The sub is not the deepest, but very well integrated and never intrudes and is nice and tight. On the way down here on Tuesday I listened to the St Paul Chamber Orchestra Messiah broadcast. It was a total pleasure to listen to on that system. This system was designed by the former KEF audio team, persuaded to go over to Pioneer. So the system has a good pedigree.

When I heard the top of the line three way speakers from Paradigm, the final movement of the Sibelius second symphony was excruciating. I popped the disc in my car, and it was a vastly better experience.

I'm certain that in the car environment the lack of passive crossovers, plays a crucial part in making this system excellent.

If we can get it this good in a car, which I regard as a difficult environment, I'm convinced we could do a lot better for the money with home audio by adopting the same practices.

I would say my car system is superior to pretty much everything on offer in the local Magnolia showrooms.

Makes sense that Pioneer would recruit a team with co-ax experience to design a car system.

As to the original debate, I leave no doubt as to where my preference falls.

DJ

 

[djreef]

Yes, this was the problem... attempting to play flac on Apple did not go well.

I will try to convert flac to some other format that Apple plays... and then burn to a CD.

Checked ML Montis owners manual and it states the following:
Use the best speaker cables you can. Higher quality cable, available from your specialty dealer, is recommended and will give you superior performance. Spade connectors are suggested for optimum contact and ease of installation.

I suppose since there is so much debate on this topic... I don't expect that there is a night and day difference bet using decent speaker cables and expensive ones...

I use Max to convert flac to AIFF, even 24/96 files are no problem.

DJ