Denon X4000 bum out of the box

[PENG]

Didn't mean to confuse, I am rather disappointed with electronics as a whole slew of issues
have hit me in the last month. LG 55" LED TV repaired, then replaced under xt. warranty
with a new LG 60" LED 2 weeks ago, 3 days in...same issue, most electronics in new tv replaced yesterday,
yesterday afternoon, a quick glitch of the same issue for 2 seconds after repair
Also had to purchase new xt warranty, as we had exercised the last one, and the new tv is $1500 less now
so we just lost that money as warranty replaces with equivalent.

2 HDMI cables 2 yrs old breaking signal. Coffee grinder kapoot. Wifi router fizzling out.
There's no skin left on our backs at work for the boss to crack the whip on and have lowered to the buttocks now.
Then the presumable simple integration to HT with my 2ch stereo monkey wrench

View attachment 14087
I had no idea when I started this the 1.7V input sensitivity of the Carver was going to be an issue.
Can't wait to start on the Christmas lights and trees.

I was not comparing dollars to volts. Thus my statement…

The $3K AVR I was eluding to, was one specific within the brand of NAD to compare their apples together hopefully.
It was their T-777. I cannot compare their apples ATM. Just off the tele with NAD
and they cannot produce these specs, any better than myself, but said the 758 would be closer to if not the same
as the $3K T-777 which is >4V max, shoot, I thought it was 8V, darn.
The upgradable 758 and higher models, being modular design is nice. A card with Audyssey 32 can be swapped in
though we know it cannot be cheap. I should've inquired on that one. Bass Eq is not currently on the updated M-200 card
which is standard in the discontinued $4K T-787.
NAD did suggest to do a request order ticket online which I did, perhaps next week I'll hear back this time.


As to the confusion part, I cannot help you there. Giegar asked me to see what happened if I hooked up
the Acoustats to the Denon, and the SPL is similar with similar volume control as when the Denon pre outs
into the Carver. That's all I know, I was just asking him in my reply…what now, now that I've completed the test.
More than likely, it proves the NAD Normal 10V max can really peg the Carver at lower volumes than the Denon.
Also, being Fri. and near closing time, NAD was not "able" to help match an AVR of any caliber to my 1700.

Since the Carver input sensitivity is 1.7V and the Denon may be 2.5V (sorry I have only those items in my basket to compare
specs on, I do not have same test specs from same lab) it is safe to suggest that the Acoustat speakers are quite demanding
of an amp, and very much not a "green" footprint todays' in modern society.

That Denon 3808 you specd' at 8.55V sounds more promising Not sure I want to spend another $400 on the AVR
unless you think a cheap set of Polks or Fluance surrounds would be better suited tham a pair of Martin Logan ESLs for Rr ch ???

Wow, sorry about all the electronics issues you have to deal with, hope that's all behind you now. If the T758 is only specified for 4V maximum then it probably won't be much better than the Denon.

Here's one (AVR-4310) tested by Audioholics:

Denon AVR-4310CI Measurements and Analysis | Audioholics

and Gene had this to say about it's preamp output:

"Preamp LevelThe Denon AVR-4310CI was able to output 4Vrms at < 0.1%THD + N for full bandwidth (20Hz to 20kHz) which is more than double the voltage needed for most external amplifiers to reach maximum gain. Unlike other receivers we’ve tested in the past, you have no worries with the Denon driving virtually any external power amplification as it will serve to be an excellent preamp/processor for that duty."

Gene also tested the Marantz SR6004 Marantz SR6004 Measurements and Analysis | Audioholics that output 7V RMS.

Again both were only rated 1.2V by the manufacturer.

Actually, anything higher than 3V should be able to drive the Carver to its rated output, you just might have to turn the volume higher and that may have some psychological effect on you though.

It is not going to be easy to confirm their output levels until you bring the unit home and try them out with the Carver, but I think the odds are better with the higher end Denon and Yamaha models. For entry to mid range models, I would think Marantz is your best bet.

 

[Acoustat]

Can anybody, recommend a few AVRs with >6V pre outs in my price range (not too far off the X4000 price)?
I will start a thread on that, so feel free to reply there if you have any in mind.
Peng I'm not sure where you got the pre out spec on the Denon 3808, I tried hifi engine and Denon
but it sure is missing a few features I like. Looked at the Yamaha
RX-V777BT - RX-V - AV Receivers - Audio & Visual - Products - Yamaha United States
but is only 2V, but it has the 4K and 3D pass and air play.

 

[PENG]

As to the confusion part, I cannot help you there. Giegar asked me to see what happened if I hooked up
the Acoustats to the Denon, and the SPL is similar with similar volume control as when the Denon pre outs
into the Carver. That's all I know, I was just asking him in my reply…what now, now that I've completed the test.
More than likely, it proves the NAD Normal 10V max can really peg the Carver at lower volumes than the Denon.
Also, being Fri. and near closing time, NAD was not "able" to help match an AVR of any caliber to my 1700.

It the SPLs are the same at the same volume setting whether you drive the front speakers with the Denon directly or with the pre-outs driving the Carver, then pre-out output level is not the issue. However, when you say similar, then I am not sure. You need to measure the SPL with a SPL meter and use a test tone instead of music. Aside from the perceived SPL, how about the sound stage that you previously have issues with, did the Denon do a better job driving the mains without the Carver in the loop?

 

[walter duque]

I have owned a few Carver and Phase Linear amps over the past 30+ years and never had an issue like you're having.

 

[Acoustat]

how about the sound stage that you previously have issues with, did the Denon do a better job driving the mains without the Carver in the loop?

Excellent question, may I disappoint you with an I don't know? Actually, it was better, but I don't think as good as the NAD, but I really
was just hurrying along and excited to post the report that I had figured out the configuration to to get the Denon to drive rather than the pre-outs.
So I wasn't "looking" for that, rather SPL and concern with the impedance load. I was a tad worried TLSs' input that it would fry most AVRs.
I think he was having fun with a HT noob. You guys know, that this is integration right? I mean I wouldn't sound so "green" if I was just doing HT.
I'd get what I could afford, go with it and be done.

I have owned a few Carver and Phase Linear amps over the past 30+ years and never had an issue like you're having.

Well, crossed over hit me with a link for understanding volt gain. I'm still reading it but my Carver gain is 29.5db …

Suppose you have a receiver that can deliver 1 volt RMS from its preamplifier outputs before clipping; if you pair this receiver with a high powered amplifier expecting a huge boost in headroom, you might be sorely disappointed if its voltage gain is a below average 27dB.

^ this sounds precisely, what my issue is, but my gain is above avg 27db.

I was just trying to pick your alls' brains real quick with the volts and recommended AVR to man up to the job
before I ran out of time to return the Denon…if need be. Heading North next week for N.E. and may run out of return time.

Here's one I have NOT tried yet, as I do not know if it's proper…
Denon Rec Out, to NAD 1700 pre amp Input. The NAD can handle up to 10V Input also, so I should try this, no?

 

[PENG]

Here's one I have NOT tried yet, as I do not know if it's proper…
Denon Rec Out, to NAD 1700 pre amp Input. The NAD can handle up to 10V Input also, so I should try this, no?

We talked about this a few days ago, yes you can use the media player analog out if that's what you mean. However, I also cautioned you that the media player analog out can only output analog input source. I hope I am wrong about this but I think I am right.

If you read the link posted by crossedover, you probably now understand why I have hard time understanding why you are having such trouble between your X4000 and TFM-45. Of course higher preout level would help, but you really shouldn't have this kind of issue to begin with. I am not the only one who suggested that your X4000 might have been a defective unit, but then you said you had received a replacement unit so I kind of rule that out. This is getting mysterious..

 

[Acoustat]

Yes, I'm rather slow on this end, being political party time, Im on overload.
I was hoping the Denon would incorporate analog to digital converters in that path.
If I'm understanding you correctly, what audio would be present, would be limited to
an analog signal, regardless of source using Rec Out jacks?

 

[GIEGAR]

...

Whoa, wo wo wo…just got the AVR driving the Acoustats.
I had to go back into speaker configuration assistant and tell it what I had and did not
heard a click of a switch, and I knew it would work…it does…now what do you need to know Giegar???
News from 65-70 on the volume, CD the same, starts to open the speakers up playing Ship of Fools
around the 69 volume mark, so you know you have some decent speakers active. I love that Album Now and Zen.
I played it through Tuesday with the old 2ch stereo set up. As well as a couple other favourite albums.
Maybe I should forgo the electrostatics for the rear ch and keep the Acoustats and Carver out of the picture and settle
for a lesser HT setup I think I can get 4 ML X16s for ~$1K and a F15 sub just over that.
I'd be really disappointed doing this, what do you guys think? The Acoustats are stellar and carry a big room filling sound as well.

...

As to the confusion part, I cannot help you there. Giegar asked me to see what happened if I hooked up
the Acoustats to the Denon, and the SPL is similar with similar volume control as when the Denon pre outs
into the Carver. That's all I know, I was just asking him in my reply…what now, now that I've completed the test.
More than likely, it proves the NAD Normal 10V max can really peg the Carver at lower volumes than the Denon.
Also, being Fri. and near closing time, NAD was not "able" to help match an AVR of any caliber to my 1700.

Since the Carver input sensitivity is 1.7V and the Denon may be 2.5V (sorry I have only those items in my basket to compare
specs on, I do not have same test specs from same lab) it is safe to suggest that the Acoustat speakers are quite demanding
of an amp, and very much not a "green" footprint todays' in modern society.

Hey Acoustat, thanks for doing that! From my interpretation, this is actually a very good result. Because the SPL output is similar (or as similar as you can recall - audio memory is transient) for a given master volume setting with or without the Carver in the chain, you've eliminated the Carver &/or the X4000's interaction with it as a source of the problem. If the X4000 was having difficulty handling the Carver, I would have expected the SPL output to be noticeably higher for a given master volume once it (Carver) was removed from the chain.

As others have indicated, the X4000 should have no problems driving the Carver; the pre-out voltage and input sensitivity numbers as well as this troubleshooting exercise back it up. I don't quite understand why you're now on the hunt for another AVR with even more pre-out voltage.

The remaining issue though is your perceived lack of satisfactory SPL's at master volume settings that should be quite loud. We have at least tracked that down to something to do with the X4000's settings, I suspect. I looked up the X4000 manual and it notes that 80 absolute = 0dB relative. So 70 = -10dB and - others may back me up here in saying - this should be pretty damn loud. [To remind myself, over the weekend I listened to (some of) an AC/DC concert Blu-ray (5.1 Dolby TrueHD) at -10dB MV on my modest system driven by an Audyssey/THX AVR, and while great fun, it was as loud I could want to listen for more than a few songs.]

Here are a few likely suspects I've picked out of the manual, with the recommended setting:

• Loudness Management = Off
• Dynamic Compression = Off
• Audyssey Dynamic Volume = Off

What do you have your channel level trims set at now? They should be back too what Audyssey determined them to be. Another Audyssey run may also be worthwhile at the end of this too.

Also, it's not apparent from the manual, but when you run Setup Assistant, does it ask you to nominate a speaker impedance? If so, you should nominate the higher impedance setting, NOT the low impedance setting. (I can explain this further if you have the choice &/or you're concerned about it.)

See how you go with that. We'll get there eventually.

 

[Acoustat]

...I don't quite understand why you're now on the hunt for another AVR with even more pre-out voltage.

others may back me up here in saying - this should be pretty damn loud.

Here are a few likely suspects I've picked out of the manual, with the recommended setting:

• Loudness Management = Off
• Dynamic Compression = Off
• Audyssey Dynamic Volume = Off

What do you have your channel level trims set at now? They should be back too what Audyssey determined them to be. Another Audyssey run may also be worthwhile at the end of this too.

Also, it's not apparent from the manual, but when you run Setup Assistant, does it ask you to nominate a speaker impedance? If so, you should nominate the higher impedance setting, NOT the low impedance setting. (I can explain this further if you have the choice &/or you're concerned about it.)

See how you go with that. We'll get there eventually.

I was giving up on the Denon, as I figured the speaker load was keeping the MV that high
(which should deviate from a quality pre amp signal, distorting in ratio, to MV increase I presume)
is why I was shooting for higher Volts out, to preserve the signal and life of the AVR, but you're onto something else I see.

I would agree with that call on "should be LOUD!"

I have not come across Loudness Mgt. nor Dynamic Compression yet, but am fixin to call Denon, politely of course.

No, impedance is not an option so far with the settings, the way they are.

I did run Audyssey again yesterday when I hooked up an old pr of bookshelf's. This changed the gain trims some,
and the bookshelf's were a good bit louder with the Audyssey signal than the mains, however I cannot activate their amp
with all configurations that might fit, selected individually (i.e. 5.1, 7.1, 9.1… in the amp assign).
Also cannot activate the surrounds using the speaker setup guide. I hit "info" button on the remote
and the mains show active, the surrounds show, but inactive. Oh well. surely tech support will help.
I don't see the Thank button anymore, but thank you. The last V bulletin forum I was in didn't have that feature.
Also can't find my attachments or folders in profile last night. Might be fixed by now.

 

[GIEGAR]

I was giving up on the Denon, as I figured the speaker load was keeping the MV that high
(which should deviate from a quality pre amp signal, distorting in ratio, to MV increase I presume)
is why I was shooting for higher Volts out, to preserve the signal and life of the AVR, but you're onto something else I see.

I would agree with that call on "should be LOUD!"

I have not come across Loudness Mgt. nor Dynamic Compression yet, but am fixin to call Denon, politely of course.

No, impedance is not an option so far with the settings, the way they are.

I did run Audyssey again yesterday when I hooked up an old pr of bookshelf's. This changed the gain trims some,
and the bookshelf's were a good bit louder with the Audyssey signal than the mains, however I cannot activate their amp
with all configurations that might fit, selected individually (i.e. 5.1, 7.1, 9.1… in the amp assign).
Also cannot activate the surrounds using the speaker setup guide. I hit "info" button on the remote
and the mains show active, the surrounds show, but inactive. Oh well. surely tech support will help.
I don't see the Thank button anymore, but thank you. The last V bulletin forum I was in didn't have that feature.
Also can't find my attachments or folders in profile last night. Might be fixed by now.

Loudness Management and Dynamic Compression are in Audio > Surround Parameter.

It looks like you have to set the amp Assign Mode = 9.1ch(SB/FH/FW) to engage Main Pre-amps = Front.

Which binding posts are the bookshelves hooked up to? It must be Surround L&R, not Surround Back L&R. (Speakers 6 & 7 are not allowed without 4 & 5.)

The reason the level trims changed is that Audyssey is using that adjustment to align the gain structure of the full signal chain to a common reference (or alignment) level. This reference level is such that a -20dBFS input signal measures 85dBC at the main seat for each channel. In the case of Audyssey, its "log chirps" are actually at -30dBFS and should measure 75dBC at the seat, so the result is the same. This common reference means that all our HT systems will play at close to the same SPL at the main seat for a given MV setting. This is why I've been encouraging you to quote relative volume numbers... because we've all got a feel for how loud, say -10dBMV, should sound.

[The line of icons ranging from Like (thumbs up) to Dumb are watermarked at the bottom right of each post.]

 

[Acoustat]

Thanks for pointing out the icons

Yes I run it in 9.1 to use the pre-outs, but was trying everything to get the surrounds working.
You've been doing some digging, sorry about all this.

Ok D. Comp was not visible, not even grayed out…until…tech supt. had me insert a DVD
and change settings to DTS I think, on my player, also upped from 48 KHz to 192 KHz sampling.
Immediately, Digital Dolby was displayed on the Denon, and I could locate D. Comp.
It would've been impossible to have done this with my DVD settings, prior, and it was off already, default.
Didn't see Loudness yet, but it had to be in Dolby Digital, in order to see the D. Comp

I told the techy I really liked his attitude, that we were going to fix this once and for all…
1hr:26mins later, he gave up…but is supposed to call back tomorrow.
Finished with a factory reset, and the volume was lower (Dynamic Volume probably defaults to ON)
He said the volts out would never
be an issue, and gave me the rating of 1.2V where the last guy gave me 2.5V pre out specs, which I told him
then and there, I highly doubt that.

Techy had the nerve to say that after 25 yrs something in the amp may've changed and could be the amps
fault, then maybe it's the speaker has gone bad. Good gravy! I told him it works with precision with the NAD
and Carver matched up. He also though that if the Carver was bypassed, and used the Denon to mains
that the mains being 4 Ohm, the Denon amp would output 1/3 less wattage

I inadvertently fixed the problem with the bookshelf's, whilst troubleshooting with the tech looking for Loudness Mgt.
He told me to hold down the MUSIC sound mode button on the remote, once a mode was selected there…
the front panel recognized and activated the bookshelfs.
This is by no means, a user friendly setup. He agreed with me on the CD ROM manual being a pain
but I did use its' troubleshooting section to no avail for this. Works now

 

[PENG]

Thanks for pointing out the icons

Yes I run it in 9.1 to use the pre-outs, but was trying everything to get the surrounds working.
You've been doing some digging, sorry about all this.

Ok D. Comp was not visible, not even grayed out…until…tech supt. had me insert a DVD
and change settings to DTS I think, on my player, also upped from 48 KHz to 192 KHz sampling.
Immediately, Digital Dolby was displayed on the Denon, and I could locate D. Comp.
It would've been impossible to have done this with my DVD settings, prior, and it was off already, default.
Didn't see Loudness yet, but it had to be in Dolby Digital, in order to see the D. Comp

I told the techy I really liked his attitude, that we were going to fix this once and for all…
1hr:26mins later, he gave up…but is supposed to call back tomorrow.
Finished with a factory reset, and the volume was lower (Dynamic Volume probably defaults to ON)
He said the volts out would never
be an issue, and gave me the rating of 1.2V where the last guy gave me 2.5V pre out specs, which I told him
then and there, I highly doubt that.

Techy had the nerve to say that after 25 yrs something in the amp may've changed and could be the amps
fault, then maybe it's the speaker has gone bad. Good gravy! I told him it works with precision with the NAD
and Carver matched up. He also though that if the Carver was bypassed, and used the Denon to mains
that the mains being 4 Ohm, the Denon amp would output 1/3 less wattage

I inadvertently fixed the problem with the bookshelf's, whilst troubleshooting with the tech looking for Loudness Mgt.
He told me to hold down the MUSIC sound mode button on the remote, once a mode was selected there…
the front panel recognized and activated the bookshelfs.
This is by no means, a user friendly setup. He agreed with me on the CD ROM manual being a pain
but I did use its' troubleshooting section to no avail for this. Works now

I just thought of the following that could explain some of the seemingly mysterious part of your experience so far.

1) The NAD T1700 has no digital inputs so you may be comparing orange to apple where you try to compare their volume settings.
2) The T1700 volume control is probably the totally analog type and they usually don't need to turn pass 11:00 O'clock position to get deafening loud.
3) The Denon AVR-X4000's volume settings are either 1-98 or -80 to +18, so 70 is -10. If you like to listen loud and the room is not too small then given your speakers are 4 ohms and may have relatively low sensitivity, -10 could seem reasonable. AVRs are not designed to drive 4 ohm speakers with low sensitivity such as electrostatic ones (assuming its sensitivity is say less than 88 dB/2.83V/1M) that are of low sensitivity. That's why you do need the Carver, though the X4000 could be adequate/or marginally adequate for two channel driving only one pair of your Acoustat 33 in a smaller room.
4) You may still have some settings messed up, such as dynamic volume, compression of any kind etc.
5) Please don't take it the wrong way, you expect the NAD to sound better so there could Placebo could play a part, however small a part that is.

I would still like you to confirm that you have done a processor reset, you know how to do it right, if not please refer to the manual. You need to do that because to troubleshoot your issue you have to make sure all those setting processing setting are totally off. You could use pure direct that is supposed to turn all such things off, but there is no harm to do a reset just to be sure.

At the end of the day you X4000's volume setting may be normal for the reasons I listed and I may miss a couple. Replacing it with another AVR such as the NAD T758 may not make any difference.

 

[markw]

I'm pretty sure Peng nailed this with #2. I have a 1600 and can guarantee that what he said is correct. Comparing it's position to a numeric scale on an AVR's digital control is useless.

 

[Acoustat]

So it is normal for the AVR to be at -16 to -10db and carry on normal conversation and not reach theatrical or entertainment
levels till we're at around -6 to -4db? The only thing I can think there is, that's with only the mains and no surrounds.
Add in some surrounds that are more sensitive and the SPL may increase, except for Audyssey assembling the output of
the surround amps to blend with the mains properly. It was a thought...
Eating dinner last night and watching TV, AVR at -10db, my chewing obliterated a lot of voice.

I cannot, for the life of me, find much by the way of specs on these speakers. There is a forum with more questions than answers it seems
but I find nothing in sensitivity, gain or even frequency response for that matter, though I'm pretty sure the FR is 20Hz-20KHz.

"If you like to listen loud and the room is not too small then given your speakers are 4 ohms and may have relatively low sensitivity, -10 could seem reasonable."
(I cannot locate the "wrap quote around text button" it seems the update Sunday left that one out.)
I thought the carver was supposed to deal with this issue and provide impedance management.
-10db is news cast, be it live or DVR, sports, and most TV in general.

What then, could anyone, please tell me would the master volume level have to be at
to begin degrading the signal to the analog pre outs of the X4000.
Denon told me today they are analog. I had to ask.

One Denon tech a couple weeks ago thought the Cbl/Sat box could be culprit, however other peripherals suffer this as well to a lesser degree.

There are no Dynamic Compression or Dynamic Volume set to On.
We cannot get to Loudness Mgt. and am attempting to do so, playing Blue Ray with DTS HD (Planet Earth)
Tech said you have to play a Dolby True HD to find the Loudness Mgt.

He called back today, complaining he got his butt chewed out for being on the tele so long yesterday
even though he had cautioned about that yesterday and said he didn't care.
So todays call, was basically to dismiss me from their tech support, and tell me that many brains
have been looking at this and come up with no clue as to what could be wrong setting wise
and blow it off as outdated equipment, and no voltage on the pre outs would make a lick of difference.
End of tech support story.

He "did" take note that I felt the programming or interface should be more intuitive.
Particularly with the activating surrounds found on page 236 I think he said.

I am mulling over the X-4100, or he suggested to send this unit back and repurchase
as I've ran into return time issues, should I want to try a different speaker system.
(I don't have time to order a new speaker system and return this unit)
I am deeply in need of a subwoofer or run my AVR into my Denon Eq as the onboard Eq on the AVR
is non functional with Movie/Dolby selected for sound mode.
The Denon DE-70 Eq spans from 16Hz - 32KHz offering much better management of the bass without a subwoofer.
The X4000 Eq only drops to 63Hz if I remember correctly
but that doesn't help me, playing Planet Earth, and the bass maxes out my ESLs bass panel yet narrating voice
is not loud enough. I cannot use the onboard Eq anyway with the BRP playing Dolby, maybe DVD Direct.

 

[Acoustat]

After hooking up my el-cheapo Realistic Minimus-11 bookshelfs (50W), solely, to the Denon
I'm 100% positive, that my Acoustat speakers (which I've been reading online are difficult to drive)
are the cause for the Denon AVR having to work so hard. I did not want to push their limit
above MV setting of -20db

I am 100% positive that if I were to use all HT system speakers with typical sensitivity
that I would not have complaints about the Denon.

I am also positive, that the Carver should be able to do what it should
if it were driving more easily driven speakers, using the Denon pre-outs.
It pulls duty and then some using the NAD 1700, an excellent match with which I am elated.

Now what…
Plans now, are to use the Carver to Acoustats via the Denon AVR for HT,
add a Rythmik F-15 sub, and a pair of rear channel speakers.
I will be running 4.1 HT. High on the list Martin Logan Motion LX16 or 15 or 4.
Prefer the Sunfire surrounds by Bob Carver I believe, but out of reach.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IE5MYW0/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1?pf_rd_p=1944687582&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B00IE5N5DM&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1WBEPD9AENS7CYZB6JM8

Over the next year, plans are to add a pair of front towers and a centre channel.
High on the list, are the Martin Logan Motion 40's and Motion 8 Centre.
If I can find a great deal on the ML electrostatic hybrid centre ch, used, I will go with that.
This will allow me to remove the Acoustats from HT altogether, but will take some time
to get the funds saved up for it.

Does this sound like an intelligent plan?

 

[GIEGAR]

So it is normal for the AVR to be at -16 to -10db and carry on normal conversation and not reach theatrical or entertainment
levels till we're at around -6 to -4db? The only thing I can think there is, that's with only the mains and no surrounds.
Add in some surrounds that are more sensitive and the SPL may increase, except for Audyssey assembling the output of
the surround amps to blend with the mains properly. It was a thought...
Eating dinner last night and watching TV, AVR at -10db, my chewing obliterated a lot of voice.

Have you returned or maintained the channel level trims at what Audyssey determined them to be?

Being able to carry out a normal conversation and casually watching TV at -10dBMV and having to crank it up to -4dBSPL for it to be satisfyingly loud entertainment is definately not normal. As you say, adding more sensitive surrounds will not markedly increase SPL because the sensitivity of the speakers is taken into account in the (Audyssey) calibration process. Audyssey sets the trims accordingly and less power is used for a particular SPL.

I cannot, for the life of me, find much by the way of specs on these speakers. There is a forum with more questions than answers it seems
but I find nothing in sensitivity, gain or even frequency response for that matter, though I'm pretty sure the FR is 20Hz-20KHz.

You probably have the owner's manual, but I did find a brouchure as well. (Which I'm having strife uploading... I'll try again later.)

There's also this thread: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/183168-acoustat-answer-man-here.html.

"If you like to listen loud and the room is not too small then given your speakers are 4 ohms and may have relatively low sensitivity, -10 could seem reasonable."

I thought the carver was supposed to deal with this issue and provide impedance management.
-10db is news cast, be it live or DVR, sports, and most TV in general.

Again, the calibration process takes into account all the variables in the audio chain, including preamp output, amplifier gain, speaker sensitivity, listening distance and room characteristics (reflection, absoption), by aligning a measured target SPL at the main listening position with a digital input signal of known amplitude. This way, a movie played back -10dBMV on a calibrated system will be at about the same loudness no matter where it's played back. (And incidently will be about 10dB below what the sound engineer heard when he created it.)

Yes, it is the Carver that "sees" the impedance of the Spectras. This is why it's odd that there seems to be an abundance of attenuation going on somewhere regardless of whether it's in the chain or not.

What then, could anyone, please tell me would the master volume level have to be at
to begin degrading the signal to the analog pre outs of the X4000.
Denon told me today they are analog. I had to ask.

They are indeed analog otherwise they wouldn't be able to the drive power amps. However, while they are in the analog domain (ie. after the DAC's), in a modern AVR they are a digitally monitored and controlled analog preamp and output and are essentially linear in operation with respect to volume level.

The preouts will abruptly clip when tasked with a signal voltage that exceeds their capacity. According to Denon this is at 2.5V for the X4000. Up until this point the signal will remain relatively clean; certainly orders of magnitude less distortion than most speakers will be producing at this point.

In theory though, the AVR is carefully designed so as not to clip the preamps. As explained by M Code earlier, the total gain available in the digital (DSP) and analog domains is deliberately limited. The position of individual channel trims (digital) is monitored and the maximum master volume position is set accordingly. For example, many AVR's maximum MV is +18dB with channel trims set to 0dB; but if a channel trim is pushed to say +8dB, the maximum MV available would be limited by that amount to +10dB. This way, a predetermined preamp voltage for that channel should not be exceeded.

I am mulling over the X-4100, or he suggested to send this unit back and repurchase
as I've ran into return time issues, should I want to try a different speaker system.
(I don't have time to order a new speaker system and return this unit)
I am deeply in need of a subwoofer or run my AVR into my Denon Eq as the onboard Eq on the AVR
is non functional with Movie/Dolby selected for sound mode.
The Denon DE-70 Eq spans from 16Hz - 32KHz offering much better management of the bass without a subwoofer.
The X4000 Eq only drops to 63Hz if I remember correctly
but that doesn't help me, playing Planet Earth, and the bass maxes out my ESLs bass panel yet narrating voice
is not loud enough. I cannot use the onboard Eq anyway with the BRP playing Dolby, maybe DVD Direct.

There's no reason to believe that the X4100 will be any different to the X4000's, so I'd suggest you forget about that.

I agree, a quality subwoofer like the Rythmik F15 will be an invaluable addition to your system. Hopefully, you won't feel the need to keep the Denon EQ in the system once the sub is properly integrated. However, it will not solve the problem at hand.

 

[Acoustat]

On the level trims, I've rerun Audyssey several times and have not waivered from the trim levels
that it sets, except during my 1st tech support conversation when I maxed them out.

The idea on the X4100
4 ohm rating
Higher wattage
2.0 HDMI

Even Denons description says its' powerful amps are able to drive MOST types of speakers.
I'm really laying the blame on the Acoustats power hungry driving force needs.
I did download the brochure, and the specs are not there either, it is identical to what came
with my speakers originally.

With the Denon at 65 on the MV my Carver amp is pushing 1-5watts/ch with CD playing.

 

[PENG]

s

Yes, it is the Carver that "sees" the impedance of the Spectras. This is why it's odd that there seems to be an abundance of attenuation going on somewhere regardless of whether it's in the chain or not.

I thought so in the beginning but not so much any more. I believe the Spectra 33 could be the main source of attenuation but we don't know their specs so we can only guess. Remember his issue is that he has to turn the Denon's volume to 70+. What if the 4 ohms rated Spectra's sensitivity is say 84 dB/2.83V/1M vs 8 ohm speakers of 90 dB/W/M (note V vs W in the specs)? Factoring in the Spectra could have impedance of less than 4V in the frequency range sensitive to the OP, now that's a difference of 9 dB. Now if his room is big, and since the carver's sensitivity is on the low side, you can begin to see why.

I think he is over reacting to the volume setting, there is no big deal to have to turn it up to 70, I wouldn't worry about it unless he has to listen at 85 or higher, assuming Audyssey set to trim to 0. If his NAD T1700 has a digital volume display that follows the same convention, it would likely be in the 70's range too, but it does not have such display so any volume setting comparison is almost meaningless.

To troubleshoot more, we need to see:

Audyssey trims for each channel.
Room dimensions
Sitting distance.
SPL measured by a RS SPL meter, not from free Apps, at sitting distance.

 

[PENG]

I'm 100% positive, that my Acoustat speakers (which I've been reading online are difficult to drive)
are the cause for the Denon AVR having to work so hard. I did not want to push their limit
above MV setting of -20db

No, the Denon does not have to work hard if you are using it as a preamp. It is the power amp that has to work harder if the speakers are hard to drive, but that should not be a problem for the Carver that is rated to blow those speakers up to smoke well before it reaches its rated output.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

On the level trims, I've rerun Audyssey several times and have not waivered from the trim levels
that it sets...

What are the trim levels? Can you tell us the numbers?

FL
C
FR
SR
SL
?