Denon X4000 bum out of the box

[Acoustat]

"Better", in many cases could be mostly a matter of the individual's preference. If it sound better to you than it is great news as you are the judge. I have plotted enough graphs to know that Audyssey XT32 does a decent job in flattening the frequency response in my room for my listening positions. I do like the sound better with XT32 enabled so I leave it on all the time but that's just me. I also leave dynamic EQ on all the time. If I felt it had degraded sound quality I would have turned it off too.

Understood, and agree. I think the "better" part was the inability to "hold together" and keep separation of instruments and voice near the same frequency with the Denon.
Couldn't imagine anybody liking anything like that who'd been subjected to such privileged equipment as you guys have,
but I do indeed understand the "better" aspect referred to.

Absolutely, you are doing it the right way, and yes, stick with line out from the Denon if you could. Using pre outs will complicate things.



Not sure what you meant, if you are referring to the line output level, NAD typical specify it as "Maximum" so it does not mean it is higher than that of the Denon. I have seen at least one Denon tested at >18V maximum, with stated rated output of 1.2V.

that's a big difference from rating. Wow!
My thinking was, to keep the Denons volume midways, not 70%+...then line out into - and use the NAD - to adjust the volume from there for HT.

Using pre outs will complicate things.

Ok, I see only one single audio out, L and R on the Denon for Media Player…
will that be the same as line out and will this carry the Audyssey corrected signal out for HT, to feed into the current NAD 1700 preamp?
I appreciate your help and knowledge on these things. I am resurrecting from the 80's having not done any HT whatsoever.

I do have a question on the use of Audyssey if you don't mind a pm tomorrow to get some input on my left couch seat
as the 1st? test in setup, as that is the sweet spot or I could just start a new thread on that...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

"Better", in many cases could be mostly a matter of the individual's preference. If it sound better to you than it is great news as you are the judge. I have plotted enough graphs to know that Audyssey XT32 does a decent job in flattening the frequency response in my room for my listening positions. I do like the sound better with XT32 enabled so I leave it on all the time but that's just me. I also leave dynamic EQ on all the time. If I felt it had degraded sound quality I would have turned it off too.

I've listened to $20K Mark Levinson stereo preamp & $20K amp, Krell preamp & amp, and others. And I unequivocally believe that Audyssey Dynamic EQ makes the sound better than all those preamps and amps.

But that is my experience and my life story.

Every guy has his own preference and life story.

 

[Acoustat]

These are the only 2 audio outs I have that are not labeled as Pre Outs
1st is a Rec out
2nd is audio out for media player (yellow highlight beside the pre outs)
Should I be using one of these for output to my NAD 1700 preamp for HT
in order to use my loudspeakers on my Carver amp, and surrounds on the Denon?
I'm really sorry for so many questions, but I don't want to fry my NAD ya know?

 

[PENG]

View attachment 14062


View attachment 14063
These are the only 2 audio outs I have that are not labeled as Pre Outs
1st is a Rec out
2nd is audio out for media player (yellow highlight beside the pre outs)
Should I be using one of these for output to my NAD 1700 preamp for HT
in order to use my loudspeakers on my Carver amp, and surrounds on the Denon?
I'm really sorry for so many questions, but I don't want to fry my NAD ya know?

Typically you can do anything with those kind of outputs as long as the source is analog. I am not familiar with the X-4000 so there may be a slim chance it would work with digital source but I highly doubt that would be the case. So you may be back to square one on this if you intend to use it for HT though you may try component video/analog audio.

For all those troubles, you may want to sort out what the heck is going on with your Denon(s). You seemed to be saying that you have tried two units with same results right? You could talk to their tech support and probably could insist on elevating this to talking to someone more knowledgeable than their front line customer rep. For 100% brand new units with no defects, I would bet my money on the X-4000 used as preamp vs an much older NAD1700. Don't get me wrong, I have respect for NAD too.

 

[Acoustat]

Typically you can do anything with those kind of outputs as long as the source is analog. I am not familiar with the X-4000 so there may be a slim chance it would work with digital source but I highly doubt that would be the case. So you may be back to square one on this if you intend to use it for HT though you may try component video/analog audio.

For all those troubles, you may want to sort out what the heck is going on with your Denon(s). You seemed to be saying that you have tried two units with same results right? You could talk to their tech support and probably could insist on elevating this to talking to someone more knowledgeable than their front line customer rep. For 100% brand new units with no defects, I would bet my money on the X-4000 used as preamp vs an much older NAD1700. Don't get me wrong, I have respect for NAD too.

I think you lost me with the component video and analog audio. I assume you mean DVD would have a slim chance of putting out an audio signal
to my NAD1700 that would be decipherable? I don't want to pretend to understand something I don't.

You're right. I should be back on the tele with Denon…again, and I can re-attest with frustration how difficult it is
to have well over 200 pages of owners manual on a CD ROM in one room and the Denon 50' away in another.

You're correct, 2 units with same issues, though, I must repeat that I feel the sound stage is the main issue with musical focus and separation,
and the volume setting is 10 points lower on the Denon (don't have to turn it up as much now) now that I turned off the Dynamic Volume CTRL.
This is why I made the post "I think it's safe to say, not a bum unit"
I think it's high still, requiring copious amounts, but maybe it's normal to be at 70% to watch NBC Nightly News
when my NAD would normally be at 25%.
Also I dare to say, my NAD would cause my Carver to hit over 500W/Ch at 70% into 4 ohms with CD on my Acoustat 33's. They will handle it,
though I would not do it this late in the game, as I have no clue how well the membrane holds up after 25 years.
Thanks for the input

 

[Acoustat]

Really appreciate your alls inputs along the way.

There'a a nobel cause for my sudden turn to HT.

Last year my wife was diagnosed with breast cancer shortly after her father passed away
and I've been hot n heavy into reefing. There's a lot of regrets. My custom aquarium cost $1K alone, just the tank
and on and on… She has no interest in that as a hobby whatsoever, so I'm at a point where I want
to do something, we both enjoy together, and treasure time more so, spent with each other.
This conversion to HT is how I plan to do just that, and monies are really tight with a LOT of Dr bills.
Just the one shot she gets a month is a $840 charge to the insurance, and we're not sure she's able
to tolerate it. So I'm wanting to spend my money wisely, and get as much as I can out of it.

Shoot, TLS said this was such a simple set up and would be superior to most HT systems…
I'm working on it...

 

[PENG]

I think you lost me with the component video and analog audio. I assume you mean DVD would have a slim chance of putting out an audio signal
to my NAD1700 that would be decipherable? I don't want to pretend to understand something I don't.

If you use HDMI the audio will be digital and you will most likely won't get anything out of the analog outputs of the Denon. Those analog outputs typically only work with analog input signals. I find it hard to understand why your Denon would have issue with sound stage. For it to be as bad as you describe, the L/R channel would have to be out of phase. Given that you have tried two units, it will be unlikely that you had both wired out of phase. If the speakers were wired wrong internally or externally, then the NAD would have the same issues so that can be ruled out too, unless you use too different pairs of speaker wires. To me, the cleanest way is to still use the X-4000 on its own for HT and the NAD for 2 channel music.

Can you exchange the X-4000 for the 4520?

 

[Acoustat]

LOL no I cannot afford the 4520 I still have to get the sub and a pr of surrounds.
I'm looking really hard at the ML Motion 15's, and less hard at the SVS Ultra $urround$

I was fretting over the cost of a new router for the internet today. Fortunately,
after 4 days of no wifi and doing a partial re-instal, it decided to start working
again while we were purchasing the new one. Besides, another Denon?

Yes, as we talked about the AVRs this evening, and if I was keeping one
I told my wife I'd probably be keeping one Denon 4000 for HT and wire music straight
into the NAD. I will miss the convenience of the Denon hub-ability for switching inputs though.
I would prefer to go with a NAD AVR, but leery of forfeiting the Audyssey 32 AND…Bass Eq
as I hope to build onto this system as I go.

One cool feature of the NAD 1700 is a Phase Invert hot button on the front panel.
No nothing is crossed, and again, the issue is at the mid high frequency, losing separation
of pinpoint accuracy with multiple inputs near the same frequency, and an elongated sound stage
that elongates the soundstage out of the normal sweet spot.
Instead of audibly experiencing a tight sweet spot, I'm seeing a rather stretched out, different sweet spot.
Yes in Pure mode on the Denon. I am not easy to please, and you may think it exaggeration of a subtle
difference in nuances, that I'm picking apart very critically. I would not notice it sitting off centre,
nor would I notice it, in HT mode either. Now before I found the Pure mode and the Dynamic Volume, yes it was very muddy all over.
Thanks to you Audioholics, not the Denon techies

 

[PENG]

One cool feature of the NAD 1700 is a Phase Invert hot button on the front panel.

Agree, that was a cool feature from the old days.

No nothing is crossed, and again, the issue is at the mid high frequency, losing separation
of pinpoint accuracy with multiple inputs near the same frequency, and an elongated sound stage
that elongates the soundstage out of the normal sweet spot.
Instead of audibly experiencing a tight sweet spot, I'm seeing a rather stretched out, different sweet spot.
Yes in Pure mode on the Denon. I am not easy to please, and you may think it exaggeration of a subtle
difference in nuances, that I'm picking apart very critically. I would not notice it sitting off centre,
nor would I notice it, in HT mode either. Now before I found the Pure mode and the Dynamic Volume, yes it was very muddy all over.
Thanks to you Audioholics, not the Denon techies

What you are describing now appears to be a much smaller problem than you first reported, so it seems Dynamic volume was the main culprit in the beginning. You may want to try Dynamic EQ and see if you like it better.

Also, I wonder if you can convince your wife to do an A/B (no blind test necessary I assume..). She may or may not draw similar conclusion to yours. Again, not suggesting those were just in your head so don't be over sensitive now. I am just very curious, that's all. I say no blind test required because I assume she wouldn't know separates are "supposed" to sound "better" anyway, but do volume match and use same source, same media etc. FYI, I pulled my 10 years old Denon out from the basement and told some measurements. The old Denon still has very low distortion with overall performance that is measurable using REW virtually the same as having it bypassed, i.e. transparent.

 

[Acoustat]

Not a bad idea, except there's no love of quality, or discernment on her part.
She knows my mains sound better than the tv speakers, and that's about as far as it goes.
I on the other hand was brought up in a musical discerning atmosphere, played piano
went to and played in recitals, and traveled with the church choir some and so on.
She has never had to spend a dollar on any musical reproducing speaker of any sort.
I am by nature, difficult to please, and more so with musical reproduction.

Perhaps, I should seize the opportunity, to do this A/B test and make an attempt to train her ear to a "higher octave".

 

[GIEGAR]

Hi Acoustat, I take it the replacement X4000 has arrived?

I'm just catching up here and cherry-picked a few posts on the way through:

The lower the impedance, the more capable the preamp is able to drive various cable length runs...

I have 25' on each channel.

Is this 25 feet? If so, this could be (part of) the problem, both from the cable length POV that M Code alluded to and the potential to pick up noise/interference in that length of unbalanced connection.

I do know that when I shut down last night, my amp was cool, the AVR was pretty warm
no doubt over 100ºF. on top.

If I'm still at 70% volume just to watch the news, it is not fixed.

I think it's high still, requiring copious amounts, but maybe it's normal to be at 70% to watch NBC Nightly News
when my NAD would normally be at 25%.

The undue heat of the unit, the highish level trims determined by Audyssey (+6.0dB; +4.5dB) and the fact that you need to have it turned up to 70 to watch/hear the news indicates to me that the X4000 is working very hard but relatively little acoustic output is being produced.

On my Audyssey enabled AVR, 70 absolute volume (0 - 100) equals -12dB relative volume. The X4000 would be very similar, if not the same. On an Audyssey/reference calibrated AVR or processor, a master volume of -12dB equates to theoretical program peaks of around 90dBSPL (for a -3dBFS digital input signal) at the seats, from each main channel. To most people, this is subjectively considered quite loud and is usually my "playtime" music volume. I have no problem listening to the news at -40dB (= 42 absolute) or lower. BTW, at these levels I find Dynamic Volume = Light (or more) actually improves intelligibility because it raises/normalises the level of the quieter parts.

Hell, if you have more voltage wouldn't that alone, lower the distortion?
Not having the volume at 83% as we did last night to watch the Black List on tv

Well, if it’s anything like my AVR, 83 absolute is above reference level (+1dB to be exact). We are talking theoretical program peaks in excess of 105dBSPL at the seats from a stereo pair of speakers playing a coherent signal. This should be loud enough to part your hair, knock pictures off the wall and petrify small mammals! This is VERY LOUD within the confines of a domestic sized room. Especially so for music. Something is definitely crook if you have to turn it up to this level.

Again, as a starting point I suggest that you remove the Carver from the signal chain, simply as a troubleshooting exercise. Please do that and report back the results. You aren't in danger of suddenly blowing up the AVR by doing this. I will expand on this further in my next reply.

PS: Did you miss my earlier post about setting level trims and changing the volume display to "Relative"? (http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/amps-pre-pros-receivers/92207-denon-x4000-bum-out-box-2.html#post1054567)

 

[GIEGAR]

Do not tell him to do that. Those Acoustats will likely blow any receiver.

I very much doubt it. Modern AVR's contain multiple fault detection mechanisms. If, IF a condition is detected that could potentially harm the unit, it will immediately go into protection mode and shut down until the condition is rectified.

Here is a post from a fellow who seems very happy with the performance of his Spectra 11's* actively bi-amped by an Onkyo (the horror!) TX-NR818 (135W x 2): Acoustat Answer Man is here - Page 58 - diyAudio. The response from fellow owners? Absolutely nothing. (* The smaller panels are apparently harder to drive than the larger ones.)

It takes a very robust unconditionally stable amp to drive those.

On what basis? I downloaded the Spectra 22/33 product brochure and owner's manual from here: Acoustat Spectra 33 electrostatic speaker. Despite containing detailed discussions on all manner of topics, the only mention of power requirements is in the specifications section of the brochure:

GENERAL
Nominal impedance: 4 ohms
Recommended amplifier power: 100 W/ch or greater
Bias supply power consumption: Less than 5 watts

I suspect that the notion of these speakers needing über amps to drive them properly has it's roots in audiophile forum folk-law, where having "tough to drive" speakers is often a badge of honour. For example, in the thread linked above, a member was informed that his Acoustats "deserved better" than his Emotiva XPA-1's. It's just nonsense.

In any case, I'm not suggesting that the Carver be taken out of the chain permanently. I am suggesting that Acoustat temporarily remove it from the system as a troubleshooting exercise to determine if the Carver &/or it's interface with the X4000's pre-amp is a source of the problem. A difference in performance will be apparent without turning the volume up to loud levels. This would warrant no more than 10W peak output per channel from the X4000.

Unfortunately there is not standard definition of line level.

There is. Consumer line-level, which is applicable to preamp output levels, is referenced to -10dBV or 0.316Vrms. The rated pre-amp output is the RMS voltage at reference level (0dB master volume), AFAIK.

1.7 volts for max output is on the high side. The line out of a receiver is usually 1 volt.

However I have never tested the head room of a pre out of a receiver. I have tested the headroom of my Marantz pre/pro outputs and there is a head room of 14 volts before clipping which is adequate.

As you all know I basically mistrust and dislike receivers. So we might have an issue here. Headroom is never specified these days, and almost never measured in review. Peter Walker taught me that the headroom of input and outputs is in fact just about the most important spec on a piece of audio equipment.

If the OP can not get enough output from the pre outs to drive the Carver then an extra gain stage will have to be employed or he needs to send back the receiver and get a pre/pro instead. The latter would probably be the best solution.

One of the many problems with receivers is that they are built to a price and corners are cut. I know of no receiver that would meet my demands and specifications.

AVR manufacturers can make decisions and trade-offs around economics because they have control of the signal right from digital input through to speaker level output. This enables them put quite high levels of audio performance within the reach of mere mortals, not just the audio elite. Thousands and thousands of average punters are perfectly happy with the service provided by their AVR.

TLS Guy, your position above is intriguing because it was you who stridently recommended the OP get one of the Marantz "slimline” AVR's in the first place and integrate it with his existing system. [http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/beginners-audiophytes/92003-looking-bose-acoustimas-10-what-now-2.html#post1051527; http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/beginners-audiophytes/92003-looking-bose-acoustimas-10-what-now-2.html#post1051579] The OP has an AVR to hand that's arguably more robust than the Marantz slimline units (Marantz don't even bother to publish a rated preamp output for them), yet now AVR's in general apparently have more problems than a one legged man in an arse-kicking competition.

 

[Acoustat]

Hi Giegar
Thanks for so patiently taking the time to care and help.
Don't have time ATM to reply to all will check back after work.
Interconnects are ~3' speaker cable is 25' ea.
Is this a problem?

Also, in considering 4,5 or 6 ohm Martin Logan's for the rear ch. The cable run
would be much longer and I'm considering electrostatic floor standing ones
More cable length...the AVR would perhaps overheat being burdened.

 

[GIEGAR]

Hi Giegar
Thanks for so patiently taking the time to care and help.
Don't have time ATM to reply to all will check back after work.
Interconnects are ~3' speaker cable is 25' ea.
Is this a problem?

Also, in considering 4,5 or 6 ohm Martin Logan's for the rear ch. The cable run
would be much longer and I'm considering electrostatic floor standing ones
More cable length...the AVR would perhaps overheat being burdened.

OK sorry. When M Code originally said this (my bold)...

To better understand the setup...
One needs to know what the impedance spec is for the pre-out levels...
The lower the impedance, the more capable the preamp is able to drive various cable length runs...
Also the brand and quality of the interconnect cable can affect its frequency response, the higher its capacitance the more roll-off likely in the high end freqeuncy response..

Just my $0.02...

... I took it he was talking about interconnect cable length because it was with reference to pre-amp output impedance (BICBW). You responded with your speaker wire length, which threw me.

Nevertheless, a 3ft unbalanced interconnect cable shouldn't be an issue provided it's well constructed.

A 25ft speaker wire length is on the long side, but shouldn't be a problem either provided it's of sufficient gauge. Here are two common resources for determining the minimum wire gauge for specific situations:

• Roger Russell | Speaker Wire

^ This table is "based on the resistance of the speaker wire not exceeding 5% of the rated impedance of the system". For a 25ft run to a 4Ω speaker, a minimum wire gauge of 14 AWG is indicated.

• BCAE | Speaker Wire Calculator

^ This tool takes it a step further by calculating the dB loss for the speaker wire, and appears to be less conservative. For a 25ft run to a 4Ω speaker with power output of 500W, 18 AWG wire is fine provided it's not run under carpet or in walls. If wire is to be run under carpets or in walls, 14 AWG is required.

 

[Acoustat]

Hi Acoustat, I take it the replacement X4000 has arrived?

Yes just shipped the 1st one back today. Coin flip would've been fine which one.
Oh and the 25' cab els are Monster brand, Powerline 3 time coherent premium,
I'm on the tele on hold with Monster right now, 12g I tink dat will suffice.
They are coiled, excess behind each speaker, excess for varying room setups.
When I purchased this system, our living room was 15x30 with 10' ceilings.

The undue heat of the unit, the highish level trims determined by Audyssey (+6.0dB; +4.5dB) and the fact that you need to have it turned up to 70 to watch/hear the news indicates to me that the X4000 is working very hard but relatively little acoustic output is being produced.

On the tele, last time, the snotty nosed kid (literally) said the heat was not an issue, and they run hot, his answer.
With nobody here but myself, rather quiet house, news @ 63 or -16db higher when my wife gets home and the evening begins.
Dr Oz was @ -16db, turned on the DVR, and a series, Sleepy Hollow nice at a standby level of -12 to -10db nothing super dynamic
but some nice sound effects like distant birds, or a thought/mood provoking bass rumble, nothing rattling just a settling down evening series.
Ok, how about taking the DVR/Sat box out of the picture, and try a DVD movie. I don't have a lot of movies, not many at all really.
Grabbed Dusk to Dawn and with the volume at -4 to -3db, now you're getting my attention (76-77 level)
At one point we truly had the DVR playing and the volume at 83, perhaps as the Denon kid said, the peripheral could be cause
(cab/sat box which is not old, and one of the newer vs. DTV has) With tech support, he had me try the FM radio and indeed
it was a bit louder than the Cab/Sat box, he wanted to take credit for finding the problem, yet agreed that the level we had the volume at
still, was higher than it should be for the SPL we were getting.


On my Audyssey enabled AVR, 70 absolute volume (0 - 100) equals -12dB relative volume. The X4000 would be very similar, if not the same.
Denons absolute is 0-98, but for all practical purposes, you're pretty spot on.

On an Audyssey/reference calibrated AVR or processor, a master volume of -12dB equates to theoretical program peaks of around 90dBSPL (for a -3dBFS digital input signal) at the seats, from each main channel. To most people, this is subjectively considered quite loud and is usually my "playtime" music volume. I have no problem listening to the news at -40dB (= 42 absolute) or lower. BTW, at these levels I find Dynamic Volume = Light (or more) actually improves intelligibility because it raises/normalises the level of the quieter parts.

Mine has to work considerably harder with the Dynamic Vol engaged and is probably when we had it at a level of 83 to watch a series on DVR


Well, if it’s anything like my AVR, 83 absolute is above reference level (+1dB to be exact). We are talking theoretical program peaks in excess of 105dBSPL at the seats from a stereo pair of speakers playing a coherent signal. This should be loud enough to part your hair, knock pictures off the wall and petrify small mammals! This is VERY LOUD within the confines of a domestic sized room. Especially so for music. Something is definitely crook if you have to turn it up to this level.
Dynamic volume was a big culprit. 83 may be seen again once I get a subwoofer and surrounds

Again, as a starting point I suggest that you remove the Carver from the signal chain, simply as a troubleshooting exercise. Please do that and report back the results. You aren't in danger of suddenly blowing up the AVR by doing this. I will expand on this further in my next reply.
Just did this…I get nothing 60-98 max volume, nothing, mute.
Went back and changed from 9.1, to 7.1 / 2ch playback, cannot find a configuration to make it work

PS: Did you miss my earlier post about setting level trims and changing the volume display to "Relative"? (http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/amps-pre-pros-receivers/92207-denon-x4000-bum-out-box-2.html#post1054567)
Yes but was trying to troubleshoot, completed now...

if I forgot something do lemme know.
I'm almost of the opinion…I should forget Audyssey 32 and Bass Eq and
(please don't think I'm one sided, or have tunnel vision here)
get the NAD T-758 AVR due to it's amp-ability, and my experience with NAD products has to count too

 

[Acoustat]

I am very concerned

with the amp-ability of the Denon (capabilities of the amps) having difficulty now just pre outing
to drive my amp, add a pair of Martin Logan electrostatic EM-ESL's (rear ch) perhaps a pair of surrounds later
and 1 or 2 subs, I'm having heavy doubts, about this audio system I have, being incorporable to HT
on a fair budget. I'm suspicioning Denons Volts out in the pre amp stage of 2.5V is 1.2 x 2 (RMS)
if the snotty nosed kid was accurately informed when he "asked" someone else.

I forgot to "blue text" my experience in the last post, as to my outcome of running
the Acoustats directly off the Denon. Strange, I hear faint sound if my speakers are not plugged
into the AC outlet, which powers a 5000V step up if I remember correctly, with my NAD and Carver on.
But with the Denon…it's all dead, mute, nada…everything on, volume maxed out.
I have a fairly old pair of Realistic bookshelf speakers I should try in place of the Acoustats just to make sure
I have the Denon configured correctly. I'm still kind of new to this AVR stuff, but I think I have it right.

 

[PENG]

if I forgot something do lemme know.
I'm almost of the opinion…I should forget Audyssey 32 and Bass Eq and
(please don't think I'm one sided, or have tunnel vision here)
get the NAD T-758 AVR due to it's amp-ability, and my experience with NAD products has to count too

Hey Acoustat, the T-758 is less powerful than the AVR-X4000 but when use as a preamp, it probably will work better with the Carver assuming it has a higher preamp output. Giegar's suggestion to try using the X4000 without the Carver is a good one. It is possible that your old NAD has a higher output that is needed by the Carver and the X4000's output is more suited for the more typical SS amps that typically has much higher input sensitivity than your carver.

At the end of the day you have to go with your instinct and NAD makes good amps for sure, but I do not believe it is any more "amp-ability" than equivalent Denon models but again if (only if) it has higher preamp output it will help. You may want to call NAD and ask about the pre-out rated output voltage for the T758.

 

[Acoustat]

Hey Acoustat, the T-758 is less powerful than the AVR-X4000. I have almost no doubt about that. Giegar's suggestion to try using the X4000 without the Carver is a good one. It is possible that your old NAD has a higher output that is needed by the Carver and the X4000's output is more suited for the more typical SS amps that typically has much higher input sensitivity than your carver. For example, typical Denon AVR only needs 0.2 to 0.3V for the rated output.

At the end of the day you have to go with your instinct and NAD makes good amps for sure, but I do not believe it is any more "amp-ability" than equivalent Denon models, let alone the 2nd from the top Denon X4000. Again, your call, we can only provide you with information.

Well, I'm not arguing that, and I'm open minded to options, thus the remove the carver and try just the AVR, I tried that.
One post took me to Carvers data sheet at Hifi engine, and input sensitivity rates at 1.7V, thus the Denon s h o u l d, have no problems with that
but my gut instinct as you put it, agrees, that the 10V max output of the Normal Out on the NAD 1700 (15V in High Out) and quite
possibly puts me in a $3K range for 8V AVR???



The capability of 243W into 4 ohm just sounded more muscular to me.
I never did hear back from NAD as to the volts out of the pre amp stage on the 758.
Is it not possible to have higher volts and more capability with an AVR that has 15W less/ch.
Don't get me wrong, I would try a Kenwood or Fisher if it would get this off the ground.
I am not completely biased to NAD, or I would have never bought the Denon(s).
I think 2 of them is plenty troubleshooting if you ask me, is the only reason I brought up the NAD again.

So, as I had let this thread rest, as I had decided to separate the Denon from music
bottom line…
1. Do I limp on the Denon using for HT integrating my current 2ch into 4.1
(disconnecting RCAs every time I switch back to music = a lot of wear and tear on the connecting solder joints)
2. Exchange the Denon on what ??? that would man up to the task…
3. Run the Denon into my NAD
4. Buy a cheap surround system

I'm working on it, and doing the best I can with the information I've received.
The Subwoofer is going to set me back, the rear channel is going to set me back.
Markw says if you exceed 20% of the systems cost in the AVR/pre-pro, you've overspent
integrating current system sort of skews that I reckon.

Whoa, wo wo wo…just got the AVR driving the Acoustats.
I had to go back into speaker configuration assistant and tell it what I had and did not
heard a click of a switch, and I knew it would work…it does…now what do you need to know Giegar???
News from 65-70 on the volume, CD the same, starts to open the speakers up playing Ship of Fools
around the 69 volume mark, so you know you have some decent speakers active. I love that Album Now and Zen.
I played it through Tuesday with the old 2ch stereo set up. As well as a couple other favourite albums.
Maybe I should forgo the electrostatics for the rear ch and keep the Acoustats and Carver out of the picture and settle
for a lesser HT setup I think I can get 4 ML X16s for ~$1K and a F15 sub just over that.
I'd be really disappointed doing this, what do you guys think? The Acoustats are stellar and carry a big room filling sound as well.

 

[PENG]

Well, I'm not arguing that, and I'm open minded to options, thus the remove the carver and try just the AVR, I tried that.
One post took me to Carvers data sheet at Hifi engine, and input sensitivity rates at 1.7V, thus the Denon s h o u l d, have no problems with that
but my gut instinct as you put it, agrees, that the 10V max output of the Normal Out on the NAD 1700 (15V in High Out) and quite
possibly puts me in a $3K range for 8V AVR???

As I responded in another thread, it is very difficult to compare preamp outputs due to lack of standards and test methodologies.

NAD specifies "Maximum" and we all know what maximum means right?
D&M, Yamaha, Onkyo etc., specify "Rated" and we all know the "Maximum" is expected to be higher, but we don't know how much higher.

Then you have to consider the other conditions for those rated or maximum numbers such as THD+N, output impedance, at what frequencies etc. So it is almost impossible to compare, though it is reasonable to compare such numbers within the same brand and same line of products, but you cannot compare a NAD to a Denon just base on published specs or from different test labs.

Now, take a look of some numbers I found that were from the same test labs:

NAD C315BEE - 1.81V
NAD M15 - 5.97V
NAD 316BEE - 4.5V
NAD T765 - 6V

Denon 3808 - 8.55V
Donon 4308 - 3.43V
Denon A1HD - 16.4V

McIntosh C22 - 2.75V
McIntosh C2300 2.4V

Yamaha Z7 - 7.65V

Quad Elite - 1V

Sony DA5400ES 5.96V

Krell Evolution - 0.782V

Pass Lab X2.5 1V

Marantz SC-7S2 1.6V

You will see that 3,000 does not mean high preamp output as some of the above expensive units tested at relatively low numbers. Example: the 48 lb $7,000 ref Marantz tested at only 1.6V.

You just have to make sure you pick one that has more than what the amp needs. For the Carver, yes I agree you need to get one with higher output than the X4000. I am just not sure if the T758 will make enough difference, the 1700 certainly can as you already know.

The capability of 243W into 4 ohm just sounded more muscular to me.
I never did hear back from NAD as to the volts out of the pre amp stage on the 758.

Again you are not comparing apple to apple. IHF is a short burst rating. For a fair comparison, let's see some numbers from the same test lab, the Sound and Vision/Hometheatermag as follow:

NADT753 (The 758 should be similar)

Two channels:

110.7W into 8 ohms at 0.1% THD
122.6W into 4 ohms at 1.0% THD

Denon AVR-3312 (the X4000 should be similar)

122.9W into 8 ohms at 0.1% THD
202W into 4 ohms at 0.1% THD

The NAD has higher IHF output per specs, but I cannot find any test lab results to support those IHF numbers.

Conversely, Denon does not specify IHF numbers but one can assume base on their tested continuous rated numbers, their IHF numbers would likely be comparable or even higher than corresponding similarly priced NAD units.

Is it not possible to have higher volts and more capability with an AVR that has 15W less/ch.

Not sure what you meant, if you referred to preamp outputs of AVRs yes when used as a preamp, I would consider the ones with higher outputs more capable, but only in the sense that it can work with power amps that has relatively lower input sensitivities. For example, it should work better with your Carver, but if you pair them with say an Emotiva XPA amp, then it won't make any difference as just about any AVR will have more than enough output to drive the Emotiva amp to their full capability.

Don't get me wrong, I would try a Kenwood or Fisher if it would get this off the ground.
I am not completely biased to NAD, or I would have never bought the Denon(s).
I think 2 of them is plenty troubleshooting if you ask me, is the only reason I brought up the NAD again.

And don't get me wrong, I am saying go for it but try to confirm that the T758 you are considering has high enough output. If not, you will be in the same point you are in now.

Whoa, wo wo wo…just got the AVR driving the Acoustats.
I had to go back into speaker configuration assistant and tell it what I had and did not
heard a click of a switch, and I knew it would work…it does…now what do you need to know Giegar???
News from 65-70 on the volume, CD the same, starts to open the speakers up playing Ship of Fools
around the 69 volume mark, so you know you have some decent speakers active. I love that Album Now and Zen.
I played it through Tuesday with the old 2ch stereo set up. As well as a couple other favourite albums.
Maybe I should forgo the electrostatics for the rear ch and keep the Acoustats and Carver out of the picture and settle
for a lesser HT setup I think I can get 4 ML X16s for ~$1K and a F15 sub just over that.
I'd be really disappointed doing this, what do you guys think? The Acoustats are stellar and carry a big room filling sound as well.

I am confused, so is it good, or bad, still, with the Denon on its own?

 

[Acoustat]

Didn't mean to confuse, I am rather disappointed with electronics as a whole slew of issues
have hit me in the last month. LG 55" LED TV repaired, then replaced under xt. warranty
with a new LG 60" LED 2 weeks ago, 3 days in...same issue, most electronics in new tv replaced yesterday,
yesterday afternoon, a quick glitch of the same issue for 2 seconds after repair
Also had to purchase new xt warranty, as we had exercised the last one, and the new tv is $1500 less now
so we just lost that money as warranty replaces with equivalent.

2 HDMI cables 2 yrs old breaking signal. Coffee grinder kapoot. Wifi router fizzling out.
There's no skin left on our backs at work for the boss to crack the whip on and have lowered to the buttocks now.
Then the presumable simple integration to HT with my 2ch stereo monkey wrench


I had no idea when I started this the 1.7V input sensitivity of the Carver was going to be an issue.
Can't wait to start on the Christmas lights and trees.

I was not comparing dollars to volts. Thus my statement…

I would try a Kenwood or Fisher if it would get this off the ground.

The $3K AVR I was eluding to, was one specific within the brand of NAD to compare their apples together hopefully.
It was their T-777. I cannot compare their apples ATM. Just off the tele with NAD
and they cannot produce these specs, any better than myself, but said the 758 would be closer to if not the same
as the $3K T-777 which is >4V max, shoot, I thought it was 8V, darn.
The upgradable 758 and higher models, being modular design is nice. A card with Audyssey 32 can be swapped in
though we know it cannot be cheap. I should've inquired on that one. Bass Eq is not currently on the updated M-200 card
which is standard in the discontinued $4K T-787.
NAD did suggest to do a request order ticket online which I did, perhaps next week I'll hear back this time.


As to the confusion part, I cannot help you there. Giegar asked me to see what happened if I hooked up
the Acoustats to the Denon, and the SPL is similar with similar volume control as when the Denon pre outs
into the Carver. That's all I know, I was just asking him in my reply…what now, now that I've completed the test.
More than likely, it proves the NAD Normal 10V max can really peg the Carver at lower volumes than the Denon.
Also, being Fri. and near closing time, NAD was not "able" to help match an AVR of any caliber to my 1700.

Since the Carver input sensitivity is 1.7V and the Denon may be 2.5V (sorry I have only those items in my basket to compare
specs on, I do not have same test specs from same lab) it is safe to suggest that the Acoustat speakers are quite demanding
of an amp, and very much not a "green" footprint todays' in modern society.

That Denon 3808 you specd' at 8.55V sounds more promising Not sure I want to spend another $400 on the AVR
unless you think a cheap set of Polks or Fluance surrounds would be better suited tham a pair of Martin Logan ESLs for Rr ch ???