Reliability of human senses

mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
...
- In the mean time, the results of the speaking/lip reading video should come as no surprise to anyone. Of course when someone is speaking your eyes, brain, and ears will put together what the sound is because we read people's mouths and the brain assembles the words/sounds in our head - even if the results are incorrect.
You are kidding me, right? You are implying that is my back is turned to a talking video or a live person, will not be able to understand it? Or if I close my eyes?
OR, better yet if the audio is off I can just read lips?
Is this what you are implying?
But, since I don't get all h I can sit and listen, not caring about what something looks like as I can separate that out of my listening experience because I don't care
Well, you may think you can but you are still inserting your biases, conscious or subconscious. Fact of life. Indisputable fact.

(most consumers do care as they will own this in their home, this is a whole different consideration on my end). Most of our equipment on jobs is hidden anyway. I'm looking for the best gear at various price points of value for our clients. That's how I "detach my senses" :rolleyes: .
So you think.
I don't care about the margin or price points either - unless I'm weighing performance against "like" marketed speakers/amps/etc. Only then do I care because I want to help our clients find the best value for themselves. Manufacturers ALL THE TIME come in and talk about how their brand XYZ has ABC margin or name brand recognition. I DON'T CARE. Before anyone asks, "Whaaaaaaaaaat? How can that be, Plexmulti9? You're a business!" Because my firm charges what it wants to work and our clients buy our brand, not the brand on an amp or speaker or TV. It has nothing to do with margin per product as we are project based, not transaction based. We don't run some lame stereo shop. We're a design and implementation firm. There's a big difference between the two on costing and where we make our $$$. If a job is worth so much $$$ to me in profit I am going to get it regardless of the equipment choices a client makes - or, I'll get the day off. At this point, I welcome either equally. To allow my business profitability to go up and down based around someone's equipment decisions would be absurd. I actually focus on lowering the price points of equipment rather than shove needless expensive crap down people's throat to pay bills.
Exactly, you are in business not charity. Your subconscious biases are always working.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
People are free to believe what ever floats their boat.
I didn't know there are so may boat owner out there ;) Maybe we should have a separate thread on that. :)
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Agree, it is good for people to read the stories from both side so they do not get a one sided story and take it as fact. It is better if both sides can stay cool, stick to their beliefs but not trying to shoot the others down.

..
Does this apply to stories of psychic readings, how good they are? ;) I no longer try to discuss that with my sister, futile. :
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
How is it wrong?
In every possible way imaginable sine it is not right at all.
You should study or consult knowledgeable folks on human psychology and bias. Perhaps you will find answers on t from a Google search.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Then why do measurements matter, either? The mics don't have moods nor do they represent the variables in human hearing that we all have between us. Which brings me back to practical experience and actually using and listening to the equipment and how we, as humans perceive sound in different environments with different variables. I'm not saying that measuring equipment is not important. I think it is, particularly when determining room interaction, seating position calibration, etc. as that is a variable that changes for just about every listener and in ever room.

Bias, to me, works way more in favor of guys reading measurements, then decided before listening which speaker is better. You don't think that type of predetermination of "correctness" plays tremendously into what people "hear"? I would say an absolute ton.

On the amp front, I would absolutely beg to differ. Guys say that amps sound the same... then qualify that by listing all of the variables they have to set to equal to be able to prove it. yes, two things that are the same are, indeed, the same. But not all amplifiers & preamps interact and control the speaker and sources the same way. And different speakers will perform better/worse with different types of amplifiers and at different listening volumes. Sometimes it doesn't matter. Sometimes it does, which is why it's important to actually listen and switch equipment out in practical environments.

I do not identify with stuffy audiophiles who presume to have golden ears, can hear differences between power cables :rolleyes: or feel like a fire hose of an interconnect with magical braiding is needed for short runs, or that if you lift a cable off the ground that it decouples it from the Earths interference, etc., etc. The term "chocolaty midrange" makes me want to vomit as do other ridiculously over the top descriptions of sound found in audio reviews. There is absolute, quality science to be used in A/V gear and I value it tremendously - in particular in the wire and cable fields, where margins are as absurd as the claims by fringe manufacturers looking to take advantage of people.

But if someone's going to tell me that a 40watt/channel digital amp made by NUVO can power a BG Radia PD-6Ci as well as a 40watt/channel class A/B amp from Dayton Audio I would say sure... but only at soft/light volumes because once you start turning it up there's an easily identifiable difference. Same thing in the example I gave with the Primaluna Tube Integrated, ACURUS AMP, and Onkyo Reference equipment we switched around on a pair of Totem Metal & Totem Fire. HUGE differences that took less than a few seconds into the first track we played to notice. This type of switching out of equipment is relevant, to me, because it represents what people go through in the real world when using equipment and, being my job to design these systems for people, I want them to get what they pay for.
No way to respond to you further as you are just not open to the known basic facts to even begin a meaningful discussion. Obviously you think that your practical experiences are infallible
and must be the facts and the truths.
 
P

Plexmulti9

Junior Audioholic
You are kidding me, right? You are implying that is my back is turned to a talking video or a live person, will not be able to understand it? Or if I close my eyes?
OR, better yet if the audio is off I can just read lips?
Is this what you are implying?

Well, you may think you can but you are still inserting your biases, conscious or subconscious. Fact of life. Indisputable fact.


So you think.

Exactly, you are in business not charity. Your subconscious biases are always working.
Here, instead of snark out things like "Google it" I'll go ahead and educate you properly as well as provide a source so you can further your education should you choose....

- The video linked earlier is about the McGurk effect. Wiki has it here: McGurk effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anyway, let me bold the first few lines explaining it, underlining the good parts. I suggest you read slowly to avoid your head swelling even further to the point of explosion:

The McGurk effect is a perceptual phenomenon that demonstrates an interaction between hearing and vision in speech perception. The illusion occurs when the auditory component of one sound is paired with the visual component of another sound, leading to the perception of a third sound.[1] The visual information a person gets from seeing a person speak changes the way they hear the sound.[2] People who are used to watching dubbed movies may be among people who are not susceptible to the McGurk effect because they have, to some extent, learned to ignore the information they are getting from the mouths of the "speakers".[3] If a person is getting poor quality auditory information but good quality visual information, they may be more likely to experience the McGurk effect.[4] Integration abilities for audio and visual information may also influence whether a person will experience the effect. People who are better at sensory integration have been shown to be more susceptible to the effect.[2] Many people are affected differently by the McGurk effect based on many factors, brain damages or disorders.

Again.... NOTHING TO DO WITH LISTENING TO SPEAKERS. Well, unless they're public speakers. :rolleyes:

Now, if we start getting into Multisensory integration and how it effects our listening to audio equipment, we can have a discussion. However, my point in any of these discussions is that we are going to have to listen to the speakers somewhere, some time and, as humans, we are going to use our senses in doing so. We cannot avoid Multisensory integration, so why fret about it as long as conditions are "normal listening environment". No mic setup is going to be able to simulate our senses.

- Oh, 2ndarily, you missed the parts where I said I help people for free all the time and explained why individual product margins don't play into our business model. Your subconscious is playing into your reading comprehension.

In every possible way imaginable sine it is not right at all.
You should study or consult knowledgeable folks on human psychology and bias. Perhaps you will find answers on t from a Google search.
Please, explain it like a big boy like I did for you above.


No way to respond to you further as you are just not open to the known basic facts to even begin a meaningful discussion. Obviously you think that your practical experiences are infallible
and must be the facts and the truths.
I didn't say I was infallible. I stated my experiences, as well as the experiences of other, normal people and then asked for people to relay their experiences.

Its fine if you cease responding to me and, after the above educational tools I provided, I would take a break from it as well if I were you so I could spend some time learning. What's confusing to me is that I'm open to learning, but I must have missed your presentation of "known basic facts" as you put it because all you've managed to do is show that the point of the McGurk video flew over your head, that you have a general lack of understanding of human perception, and then say "Google it". :rolleyes:
 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
The human mind is complex and what it senses is fascinating.

2 different minds will not interpret the same sensory input the same exact way.

All our senses and emotions are connected. What we see, remember, like, dislike, feel, etc., will affect what we hear.
got that right, I'm sure glad that we are all different, this place would be a hoot if everyone agreed.

ps: my tube amp used with the same speakers sounds different than my ATI ss amp through the same speakers, using a Denon 4311 as a pre. :D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Here, instead of snark out things like "Google it" I'll go ahead and educate you properly as well as provide a source so you can further your education should you choose....

- The video linked earlier is about the McGurk effect. Wiki has it here: McGurk effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anyway, let me bold the first few lines explaining it, underlining the good parts. I suggest you read slowly to avoid your head swelling even further to the point of explosion:

The McGurk effect is a perceptual phenomenon that demonstrates an interaction between hearing and vision in speech perception. The illusion occurs when the auditory component of one sound is paired with the visual component of another sound, leading to the perception of a third sound.[1] The visual information a person gets from seeing a person speak changes the way they hear the sound.[2] People who are used to watching dubbed movies may be among people who are not susceptible to the McGurk effect because they have, to some extent, learned to ignore the information they are getting from the mouths of the "speakers".[3] If a person is getting poor quality auditory information but good quality visual information, they may be more likely to experience the McGurk effect.[4] Integration abilities for audio and visual information may also influence whether a person will experience the effect. People who are better at sensory integration have been shown to be more susceptible to the effect.[2] Many people are affected differently by the McGurk effect based on many factors, brain damages or disorders.

Again.... NOTHING TO DO WITH LISTENING TO SPEAKERS. Well, unless they're public speakers. :rolleyes:

Now, if we start getting into Multisensory integration and how it effects our listening to audio equipment, we can have a discussion. However, my point in any of these discussions is that we are going to have to listen to the speakers somewhere, some time and, as humans, we are going to use our senses in doing so. We cannot avoid Multisensory integration, so why fret about it as long as conditions are "normal listening environment". No mic setup is going to be able to simulate our senses.

- Oh, 2ndarily, you missed the parts where I said I help people for free all the time and explained why individual product margins don't play into our business model. Your subconscious is playing into your reading comprehension.



Please, explain it like a big boy like I did for you above.




I didn't say I was infallible. I stated my experiences, as well as the experiences of other, normal people and then asked for people to relay their experiences.

Its fine if you cease responding to me and, after the above educational tools I provided, I would take a break from it as well if I were you so I could spend some time learning. What's confusing to me is that I'm open to learning, but I must have missed your presentation of "known basic facts" as you put it because all you've managed to do is show that the point of the McGurk video flew over your head, that you have a general lack of understanding of human perception, and then say "Google it". :rolleyes:
In effect you are implying that your experiences are infallible cannot be based in bias?
And perceptions are infallible? Really?
One's sense are fooled all the time an I is not very hard to do it.

It is you who needs lesson on perception, I am afraid as well as human psychology and testing protocols.
I think you may not be able to handle the reality of bias, especially the subconscious ones.

Oh, and how is this McGurk effect relevant to listening without seeing or knowing what is playing?
Actually, it tells us how it can create a false reality, an illusion. Yet another reason to listen without seeing when comparing audio components. Another effect messing with your perception.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Well, let us agree to disagree. :D

No matter the topic, someone will disagree.

Some of us hear improvement, and some of us don't. It's okay.

It's not hallucinations and nobody is on drugs. :D
 
G

Goliath

Full Audioholic
AcuDefTechGuy said:
It's not hallucinations and nobody is on drugs.
I agree. Words like 'hallucination' have a negative connotation. Frankly its insulting. That's why I prefer to use the words 'audible illusions' ...

; - ) :D
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Well, let us agree to disagree. :D

No matter the topic, someone will disagree.

Some of us hear improvement, and some of us don't. It's okay.

It's not hallucinations and nobody is on drugs. :D
Agree, for example I would tell people (if asked) not to expect audible improvements going from a Denon AVR4308,4311, or SR7005 to a Marantz AV7005/MM8003/Anthem MCA20 combo base on specs, lab measurements and my own experience. Then I would add that if they want to go the separate route then go for it and they maybe nicely surprised and in fact hear improvements for whatever reasons. I will refrain from telling them point blank that there won't be audible differences.:D Would that be okay then?
 
H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
That's why I prefer to use the words 'audible illusions'
I gotta remember that one.

Wife: "I distinctly remember... you said xxxx."
Me: "No dear... that was just an audible illusion."
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Agree, for example I would tell people (if asked) not to expect audible improvements going from a Denon AVR4308,4311, or SR7005 to a Marantz AV7005/MM8003/Anthem MCA20 combo base on specs, lab measurements and my own experience. Then I would add that if they want to go the separate route then go for it and they maybe nicely surprised and in fact hear improvements for whatever reasons. I will refrain from telling them point blank that there won't be audible differences.:D Would that be okay then?
That would be very politically correct. :D

It's not just about "hearing" in this audio hobby. It's about "sensing".

We're not Bad Robots. :D

When we "hear" certain speakers and amps, we "feel" the emotions too.

Can they measure that when they measure speakers and amps? :D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I agree. Words like 'hallucination' have a negative connotation. Frankly its insulting. That's why I prefer to use the words 'audible illusions' ...

; - ) :D
Why................. You........................ :D

Some sensitive souls may still correlate "audible illusions" with auditory hallucinations because it implies that it was never "real".

But the emotions we "feel" (which are ultimately connected to the sound we hear) are very much real. ;)
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Hallucinations, audible illusions, call it what you want, the result is the same: the end perception is interfered with by various stages in the brain. I don't mean to suggest that "we're all in the matrix, man!" but no one with a passing acquaintance with cognitive science thinks we have direct access to objective reality.
 

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