Reliability of human senses

AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
At an audio show, I was in a room recently for a vendor for high end power cables. The played a song, it was a female vocal cover for Sting's "Fields of Gold" song, on a system that was Focal 918s and Marantz Reference Prepro and amp I believe. They gave a demonstration on how much of a difference the power cables make by quickly switching the power cable from the stock power cable to their Shunyata power cable and playing back the same tune. I couldn't detect a difference, but then again I wasn't expecting to hear any. They switched from Shunyata to the generic cable and back to Shunyata cable, and then they said to the audience in that room "see what a difference the power cable makes", a bunch of the guys there were nodding there heads, like it was incredible difference.
That's nothing, man. David Copperfield made the Statue of Liberty disappeared. :eek: :D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
ADTG – although you aren't wrong, I think I agree with Goliath on this. People are free to believe what ever floats their boat. I'll even defend their right to their beliefs no matter how misguided I think they might be.

But if they want to proclaim their perhaps misguided beliefs about audio on a public forum such as AH, I will challenge them. There are readers who are new to audio and aren't familiar with these tired old debates. I believe they should at least be exposed to all sides of the debate.

And I'm glad to read that Goliath does too :).
Well, I'm glad Goliath is doing it instead of me.

All I'm saying is that some people will believe they hear the difference or improvement even if I don't. They will voice their opinions, and I will voice my opinion. Both sides of the story will be told and both sides will agree to disagree.

But it should be amicable and not turn into a heated argument. :)
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
All I'm saying is that some people will believe they hear the difference or improvement even if I don't.
I would go even further, I would say they do hear a difference to a degree- whether it exists or not. What we end up perceiving goes through the the signal processing of our brain. After all, you do experience hallucinations, both visual and aural. The power of suggestion is not a trivial thing.
 
G

Goliath

Full Audioholic
Plexmulti9 said:
What controls need be in place for real world use and comparison other than same room, same volume, same source equipment, and same speaker in the same position listening?
Your post suggests a lack of experience conducting good listening tests. If you compare electronic gear you need to ensure they are volume-matched. A slight volume difference can be interpreted as a quality difference. In order to ensure parity, you have to level match otherwise you are hearing level mismatches which means your comparison is actually a non-comparison.

When comparing gear, you need to ensure the switching is done quickly. Human auditory memory is fleeting - it can last a second or two. Comparing one piece of gear, getting up and changing the component, then sitting down again is just not good enough. By the time you sit down again you've just introduced a number of variables that could affect the sound that may have nothing to do with any equipment changes.

Getting up and sitting back down, but in a different position can result in comb-filtering changes, and comb-filtering can affect what you hear. Switching between audio gear casually, like 99.9% of people do, you could misremember subtle details that you thought you heard, and your auditory focusing may change at any given moment in time, giving you the mistaken impression that you heard more detail, more 'air' etc, when you just paid more attention to the music at that moment in time!

You need to control how quickly you switch components, you need to level match components and you need to ensure the test is blinded - the idea is to ensure complete parity so that both components are operating in a condition that is apples to apples. You seem to prefer apples to oranges comparisons, so more power to you.

I find it disturbing that in an A/B comparison between different products you would refer to the results as "random". Ummm, no. It's not like flipping a coin. These are two similar, but different products being used in a like manner, not a roll of dice. Verbiage like this shows a real predisposition and bias on your behalf.
Human hearing is incredibly plastic - it can be steered and influenced without effort. Sighted bias and expectation bias can result in random differences even if nothing physical had changed in the evaluation process. I have personally lost count how many people I have witnessed hearing differences between audio gear when no switching had been made!

Sight allows the fiction of sensitive perception even when nothing had changed. It is not a failing to admit that we are highly suggestible creatures, and it is impossible to use your ears, and completely detach your other senses from influencing what you hear. Bias is innate, you can't turn it off like a light switch, you can only try to mitigate its influence.

And please, do some actual research before deciding to post.

Also, sighted or not, I have ZERO bias.
Not possible. I see a post reflecting a closed mind, and now it appears your biases have steered you into thinking that your senses are infallible. :D Unfortunately being biased does not mean you are consciously aware of it - you may very well be unaware of its influence on you.

Seeing the equipment and getting bias from it is a novice trait. We're talking about LISTENING, not owning or having in the home.
Ever heard of sighted bias? Go look up the McGurk Effect. Oh wait, here is a video :

[video=youtube;G-lN8vWm3m0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0[/video]

Unless we're evaluating fit & finish, aesthetics, etc. I don't care one way or the other what something looks like when we're actually using it because the equipment isn't for me.
How are you able to detach your hearing from your other senses? Please explain the mechanism you use in order to achieve this.

We do real world demoing to find what works best and, since humans listen with their ears and not microphones, there's no better way to test equipment AND FULLY UNDERSTAND THE RESULTS than to use it. Period.
If only people used just their ears to listen. Unfortunately people use their ears and their brains, and the brain is where all the fun stuff happens! If you want to sell equipment to your client then a sighted test is the correct approach (well, it's the only approach you can use :D), however unreliable it may be. Any other approach would negatively affect your bottom line.
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Well, I'm glad Goliath is doing it instead of me.

All I'm saying is that some people will believe they hear the difference or improvement even if I don't. They will voice their opinions, and I will voice my opinion. Both sides of the story will be told and both sides will agree to disagree.

But it should be amicable and not turn into a heated argument. :)
Agree, it is good for people to read the stories from both side so they do not get a one sided story and take it as fact. It is better if both sides can stay cool, stick to their beliefs but not trying to shoot the others down.

An example would be, if someone like the sound of the R900, as I do, but others think they are bottom (an extreme case), that's fine and great. I only voiced my own opinion that liking a certain speaker or not is a subjective thing, while comparing it to the live sound that was originally recorded would be not. Voicing an opinion does not requiring slighting or insulting others.
Unfortunately we do see examples of such, and that's when people stop being cool, and start trading the you know what I mean..
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
After all, you do experience hallucinations, both visual and aural. The power of suggestion is not a trivial thing.
If a friend or family of mine believes he can hear a difference or improvement in certain amps, but I cannot, then I will just say that I cannot hear a difference or improvement in certain amps. :)
 
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Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
YEver heard of sighted bias? Go look up the McGurk Effect. Oh wait, here is a video...
Dude, that was awesome! I'd never heard of that, and it's kind of freaky. Even knowing what it should sound like didn't help (just like the professor says).
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Your post suggests a lack of experience conducting good listening tests. If you compare electronic gear you need to ensure they are volume-matched. A slight volume difference can be interpreted as a quality difference. In order to ensure parity, you have to level match otherwise you are hearing level mismatches which means your comparison is actually a non-comparison.

When comparing gear, you need to ensure the switching is done quickly. Human auditory memory is fleeting - it can last a second or two. Comparing one piece of gear, getting up and changing the component, then sitting down again is just not good enough. By the time you sit down again you've just introduced a number of variables that could affect the sound that may have nothing to do with any equipment changes.

Getting up and sitting back down, but in a different position can result in comb-filtering changes, and comb-filtering can affect what you hear. Switching between audio gear casually, like 99.9% of people do, you could misremember subtle details that you thought you heard, and your auditory focusing may change at any given moment in time, giving you the mistaken impression that you heard more detail, more 'air' etc, when you just paid more attention to the music at that moment in time!

You need to control how quickly you switch components, you need to level match components and you need to ensure the test is blinded - the idea is to ensure complete parity so that both components are operating in a condition that is apples to apples. You seem to prefer apples to oranges comparisons, so more power to you.



Human hearing is incredibly plastic - it can be steered and influenced without effort. Sighted bias and expectation bias can result in random differences even if nothing physical had changed in the evaluation process. I have personally lost count how many people I have witnessed hearing differences between audio gear when no switching had been made!

Sight allows the fiction of sensitive perception even when nothing had changed. It is not a failing to admit that we are highly suggestible creatures, and it is impossible to use your ears, and completely detach your other senses from influencing what you hear. Bias is innate, you can't turn it off like a light switch, you can only try to mitigate its influence.

And please, do some actual research before deciding to post.



Not possible. I see a post reflecting a closed mind, and now it appears your biases have steered you into thinking that your senses are infallible. :D Unfortunately being biased does not mean you are consciously aware of it - you may very well be unaware of its influence on you.



Ever heard of sighted bias? Go look up the McGurk Effect. Oh wait, here is a video :

[video=youtube;G-lN8vWm3m0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0[/video]



How are you able to detach your hearing from your other senses? Please explain the mechanism you use in order to achieve this.



If only people used just their ears to listen. Unfortunately people use their ears and their brains, and the brain is where all the fun stuff happens! If you want to sell equipment to your client then a sighted test is the correct approach (well, it's the only approach you can use :D), however unreliable it may be. Any other approach would negatively affect your bottom line.
The only thing I know is whether I like the sound or not. If something sounds good to me, then it's good to me. I realize that others may not think it sounds good to them. I also realize it doesn't mean I'm smarter, more knowledgable, more experienced, or better than anyone. :D

I tried that YouTube experience on my 12 YO daughter. The part where the guy says "Ba, Ba, Ba, etc" but his lips are showing "Fa, Fa, Fa". I had my daughter closed her eyes and just listened. Then asked her what she heard.

She said it sounded like "Ba, Fa, Va". Then when she watched the guy say it, she said it sounded like "Fa, Fa, Fa".

Then I told her that the guy is supposed to be saying "Ba, Ba, Ba" the whole time. I had her close her eyes again and listened. The part where the guy's lips look like "Fa, Fa, Fa". She then said it sounded like "Ba, Ba, Ba". Then I had her watch the guy say it again. She said it still sounded like "Fa, Fa, Fa."

My daughter got a good kick out of this power of suggestion trick. :D
 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
Ba, Ba, Ba, ,,,, Fa, Fa, Fa",... Ba, Fa, Va,..... sounds like a Christmas song. :D People can declare they hear any difference or not, but in the end only your ears knows the truth ;)
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Whether it is speakers, speaker drivers, amps, preamps, AVR, subs, etc., we will differ in our opinions for sure. It is good to hear all sides.

I can't seem to hear as much significant improvement among certain speakers, speaker drivers, amps, AVR, etc., while others may notice a significant improvement.

I hope that when we disagree, others don't take a personal offense.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Ba, Ba, Ba, ,,,, Fa, Fa, Fa",... Ba, Fa, Va,..... sounds like a Christmas song. :D People can declare they hear any difference or not, but in the end only your ears knows the truth ;)
The human mind is complex and what it senses is fascinating.

2 different minds will not interpret the same sensory input the same exact way.

All our senses and emotions are connected. What we see, remember, like, dislike, feel, etc., will affect what we hear.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
To audiophile or not to audiophile.. that is the question. :p
 
P

Plexmulti9

Junior Audioholic
I will find time this week to (kindly) answer each and every individual's assaults. I'm working on a design and presentation for a 32,000 square foot home and it takes up a lot of my free time.

- In the mean time, the results of the speaking/lip reading video should come as no surprise to anyone. Of course when someone is speaking your eyes, brain, and ears will put together what the sound is because we read people's mouths and the brain assembles the words/sounds in our head - even if the results are incorrect. Notice how in the video they put a closeup of his lips. This is so that you focused on his lips while "hearing" the sound he was saying (not an actual word, which would be nearly impossible to use to prove their point). If he were saying the word "Statue" or something this whole video goes to the cutting room floor.

This does not relate to speakers in the same way. And to try to pass this off as such? No, not really. Reading someone's lips while they are making a sound does not correlate to listening to audio equipment. The speaker sits there, stationary. We're not visually looking at the tweeters and woofers and then having our brains translate that driver movement + the sound we hear & have it = perceived sound quality.

So, to answer the lame attempts at insulting me by putting the words in my mouth that I can somehow detach my senses, well... I can't - nor did I imply that. But, since I don't get all hot and bothered by audio equipment any more, I can take it for what it is: Tools for me to work with. I can sit and listen, not caring about what something looks like as I can separate that out of my listening experience because I don't care (most consumers do care as they will own this in their home, this is a whole different consideration on my end). Most of our equipment on jobs is hidden anyway. I'm looking for the best gear at various price points of value for our clients. That's how I "detach my senses" :rolleyes: .

- And, as someone else insinuated (which I found most absurd as I have helped many... many hobbyists be able to afford gear they usually could not for absolutely next to ZERO profit), I don't care about the margin or price points either - unless I'm weighing performance against "like" marketed speakers/amps/etc. Only then do I care because I want to help our clients find the best value for themselves. Manufacturers ALL THE TIME come in and talk about how their brand XYZ has ABC margin or name brand recognition. I DON'T CARE. Before anyone asks, "Whaaaaaaaaaat? How can that be, Plexmulti9? You're a business!" Because my firm charges what it wants to work and our clients buy our brand, not the brand on an amp or speaker or TV. It has nothing to do with margin per product as we are project based, not transaction based. We don't run some lame stereo shop. We're a design and implementation firm. There's a big difference between the two on costing and where we make our $$$. If a job is worth so much $$$ to me in profit I am going to get it regardless of the equipment choices a client makes - or, I'll get the day off. At this point, I welcome either equally. To allow my business profitability to go up and down based around someone's equipment decisions would be absurd. I actually focus on lowering the price points of equipment rather than shove needless expensive crap down people's throat to pay bills.

As proof of this I just had someone from a forum email me a floor plan and a parts list their integrator is trying to get them to go with. The company/guy has very little experience with upper end work and the forum member has a very large house and high expectations. I have redesigned his whole 8500 square foot home.... for free. Absolutely no charge. No equipment selling to him or pricing given (with the exception of MSRP and some advice on how to negotiate down). I saved him a lot of money and headache and I was happy to do it. I enjoy helping people and have done things like this many times for people.

- Anyway, I'll make sure each and every response gets a fair and kind response later this week. Feel free to comment as this discussion is quite interesting to me. Oh, and don't think I didn't notice the absolute lack of any practical real life experiences anyone failed to mention. I really would like to hear about what types of gear people like, dislike, etc. based on their experiences as I don't dismiss them as trivial or inconsequential.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
No one is argueing that speakers will sound different. We are arguing that amps don't sound different from one another under some previously described conditions. The novice remark you made about sight bias is just so wrong on every level imagineable and falls under the same audiophile BS that's been touted for years and has given the audio industry a bad rap.
 
P

Plexmulti9

Junior Audioholic
No one is argueing that speakers will sound different. We are arguing that amps don't sound different from one another under some previously described conditions. The novice remark you made about sight bias is just so wrong on every level imagineable and falls under the same audiophile BS that's been touted for years and has given the audio industry a bad rap.
How is it wrong?
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
How is it wrong?
Because its not humanly possible to isolate the input from the other senses in one's mind and not be influenced by those other senses. It human whether novice or well seasoned. Even the mood we're in while listening will be affect our interpretation of what we hear.
 
P

Plexmulti9

Junior Audioholic
Because its not humanly possible to isolate the input from the other senses in one's mind and not be influenced by those other senses. It human whether novice or well seasoned. Even the mood we're in while listening will be affect our interpretation of what we hear.
Then why do measurements matter, either? The mics don't have moods nor do they represent the variables in human hearing that we all have between us. Which brings me back to practical experience and actually using and listening to the equipment and how we, as humans perceive sound in different environments with different variables. I'm not saying that measuring equipment is not important. I think it is, particularly when determining room interaction, seating position calibration, etc. as that is a variable that changes for just about every listener and in ever room.

Bias, to me, works way more in favor of guys reading measurements, then decided before listening which speaker is better. You don't think that type of predetermination of "correctness" plays tremendously into what people "hear"? I would say an absolute ton.

On the amp front, I would absolutely beg to differ. Guys say that amps sound the same... then qualify that by listing all of the variables they have to set to equal to be able to prove it. yes, two things that are the same are, indeed, the same. But not all amplifiers & preamps interact and control the speaker and sources the same way. And different speakers will perform better/worse with different types of amplifiers and at different listening volumes. Sometimes it doesn't matter. Sometimes it does, which is why it's important to actually listen and switch equipment out in practical environments.

I do not identify with stuffy audiophiles who presume to have golden ears, can hear differences between power cables :rolleyes: or feel like a fire hose of an interconnect with magical braiding is needed for short runs, or that if you lift a cable off the ground that it decouples it from the Earths interference, etc., etc. The term "chocolaty midrange" makes me want to vomit as do other ridiculously over the top descriptions of sound found in audio reviews. There is absolute, quality science to be used in A/V gear and I value it tremendously - in particular in the wire and cable fields, where margins are as absurd as the claims by fringe manufacturers looking to take advantage of people.

But if someone's going to tell me that a 40watt/channel digital amp made by NUVO can power a BG Radia PD-6Ci as well as a 40watt/channel class A/B amp from Dayton Audio I would say sure... but only at soft/light volumes because once you start turning it up there's an easily identifiable difference. Same thing in the example I gave with the Primaluna Tube Integrated, ACURUS AMP, and Onkyo Reference equipment we switched around on a pair of Totem Metal & Totem Fire. HUGE differences that took less than a few seconds into the first track we played to notice. This type of switching out of equipment is relevant, to me, because it represents what people go through in the real world when using equipment and, being my job to design these systems for people, I want them to get what they pay for.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
ACURUS AMP
Man, I used to love Acurus back in the days. At one point I had 3 Acurus 200X3 amps and 4 Acurus RL11 preamps for an analog 7.1 system. :eek:

I feel nostalgic every time I see the word "Acurus". :D
 
P

Plexmulti9

Junior Audioholic
Man, I used to love Acurus back in the days. At one point I had 3 Acurus 200X3 amps and 4 Acurus RL11 preamps for an analog 7.1 system. :eek:

I feel nostalgic every time I see the word "Acurus". :D
They've brought it back!
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Then why do measurements matter, either? The mics don't have moods nor do they represent the variables in human hearing that we all have between us. Which brings me back to practical experience and actually using and listening to the equipment and how we, as humans perceive sound in different environments with different variables. I'm not saying that measuring equipment is not important. I think it is, particularly when determining room interaction, seating position calibration, etc. as that is a variable that changes for just about every listener and in ever room.

Bias, to me, works way more in favor of guys reading measurements, then decided before listening which speaker is better. You don't think that type of predetermination of "correctness" plays tremendously into what people "hear"? I would say an absolute ton.

On the amp front, I would absolutely beg to differ. Guys say that amps sound the same... then qualify that by listing all of the variables they have to set to equal to be able to prove it. yes, two things that are the same are, indeed, the same. But not all amplifiers & preamps interact and control the speaker and sources the same way. And different speakers will perform better/worse with different types of amplifiers and at different listening volumes. Sometimes it doesn't matter. Sometimes it does, which is why it's important to actually listen and switch equipment out in practical environments.

I do not identify with stuffy audiophiles who presume to have golden ears, can hear differences between power cables :rolleyes: or feel like a fire hose of an interconnect with magical braiding is needed for short runs, or that if you lift a cable off the ground that it decouples it from the Earths interference, etc., etc. The term "chocolaty midrange" makes me want to vomit as do other ridiculously over the top descriptions of sound found in audio reviews. There is absolute, quality science to be used in A/V gear and I value it tremendously - in particular in the wire and cable fields, where margins are as absurd as the claims by fringe manufacturers looking to take advantage of people.

But if someone's going to tell me that a 40watt/channel digital amp made by NUVO can power a BG Radia PD-6Ci as well as a 40watt/channel class A/B amp from Dayton Audio I would say sure... but only at soft/light volumes because once you start turning it up there's an easily identifiable difference. Same thing in the example I gave with the Primaluna Tube Integrated, ACURUS AMP, and Onkyo Reference equipment we switched around on a pair of Totem Metal & Totem Fire. HUGE differences that took less than a few seconds into the first track we played to notice. This type of switching out of equipment is relevant, to me, because it represents what people go through in the real world when using equipment and, being my job to design these systems for people, I want them to get what they pay for.
I think you are missing everyone's point. What we are saying is that under controlled conditions where the speakers are well within the amps maximum load requirement in the same room with the same speakers and level matched that the amps/receivers will sound the same under blind listening conditions. There are plenty of speakers that are easy to drive so that condition is real world rather than a laboratory experiment. Replay that test under sighted conditions and people will begin to notice differences because of bias. I happen to agree with you that an AVR/amp must be able to comfortably drive the worst case impedance of a speaker. If it can't drive the speaker, then its beginning to reach the limit of its power delivery and things will sound differently between an amp/AVR that is capable to one that is straining. No argument there. The way an amp/AVR handles clipping will also sound different from one another but no one wants their system to clip. What you are referring to is systems integration, match an AVR/amp power delivery to its load. It those reasons that people should pick the speaker firsts and foremost and then the amplifier/AVR second. The amplifier/AVR should be picked 2nd and matched to the speaker's demand from a power delivery point and not because the AVR/amp has some sort of a house sound and will sound different from another equally powered amp.
 
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