Reliability of human senses

G

Goliath

Full Audioholic
I've heard from many audiophiles that the most accurate and finely tuned measuring devices are our senses.I would like to learn more about this. If an audiophile could explain this to me I would appreciate it.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
The Boxer by Paul Simon, from "Bridge over Troubled Water", 1970

"I am just a poor boy though my story's seldom told.
I have squandered my resistance for a pocketful of mumbles, such are promises.
All lies and jest still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
I've heard from many audiophiles that the most accurate and finely tuned measuring devices are our senses.I would like to learn more about this. If an audiophile could explain this to me I would appreciate it.
It's true in the sense that only your own ears and head can determine what sounds the best to you. In any sense that has to do with actual, scientific accuracy (FR response, distortion, etc) then it's a load of rubbish.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
I've heard from many audiophiles that the most accurate and finely tuned measuring devices are our senses.I would like to learn more about this. If an audiophile could explain this to me I would appreciate it.
The last thing you want is for an audiophile to explain this to you. The reason for my stance on this is that audiophiles simply refuse to accept the fact that they are human and have somehow through training or birth, (coughs BS) have been able to control and mitigate the affects of their other senses on what they hear. The funny or tragic but definately human trait is that what we perceive to be real is a culmination of all our senses acting together along with our state of mind at that specific moment in time. Blind listening tests which audiophiles vehomently poo-poo, remove or signicantly reduce the stimulus of the other senses thus reducing the bias of the other senses on our hearing. Offer the choice of a blind listening test to an audiophile is analgous of asking a vampire to hold a cross. Trust me, the last thing you want is to ask an audiophile of their opinion.


BTW, human senses are far from finely tuned compared to that of the animal world. In fact, our sight, sense of smell, hearing, and touch are easily bested by any mammal.
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
It's true in the sense that only your own ears and head can determine what sounds the best to you.
Which isn't something to dismiss. :) That's why we recommend that people audition speakers, after all. Measurements are great and can help folks know how one product compares to another in terms of accurate replication of an input (e.g. speakers, digital cables), which can help folks know if it's even worth considering spending more money on one product versus another from a performance standpoint (I'm mostly thinking about cables). Those comparisons are more useful the more the measurements capture every aspect relevant to performance, which is simple to do with digital cables. However, even if the measurements capture everything and are perfectly accurate, a difference in measurements doesn't help people know if it matters to them. "This output of speaker A is only flat out to 18kHz, whereas speaker B is flat out to 22kHz." Speaker B seems better, unless you're like me and can't hear up to 18kHz anymore.

So, some audiophiles will argue that they can tell differences that measuring devices can't. Okay. Maybe they can, maybe they can't. My point is in line with the people here who are saying that our senses aren't that accurate - if my senses aren't good enough to tell a difference between products, I don't care what a graph says or what a "golden ear" says. I'm not going to pay more to not hear a difference that someone else says is there.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Which isn't something to dismiss. :)
I wasn't. ;) Which isn't to accuse you of accusing me of doing so :p

However, even if the measurements capture everything and are perfectly accurate, a difference in measurements doesn't help people know if it matters to them. "This output of speaker A is only flat out to 18kHz, whereas speaker B is flat out to 22kHz." Speaker B seems better, unless you're like me and can't hear up to 18kHz anymore.
Exactly, since even speakers that measure very similarly on axis can sound very different. Off axis response (vertical and horizontal), distortion, sensitivity, and other factors can all play into how a speaker sounds. Well, all that in addition to the 50%+ that the room adds in as well. The more listening experience you gain, the more you learn what you like and what you don't like. Then you can get deeper into the measurements and tease out exactly what those characteristics are. I will add that there are some interesting opinions out there about what happens beyond our hearing threshold and whether or not (or how much) it affects what we end up hearing.

I've tried an experiment where I identified my hearing threshold and boosted the frequencies beyond it to see if it affected what I heard. I thought that it did, to some extent, but it was sighted and I knew when the boost was in place and when it wasn't yadda, yadda. So who knows what I really heard.

I'm not going to pay more to not hear a difference that someone else says is there.
True that. :D
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I love threads like this, because I get to drag out my list of pity quotes and comments regarding audiophools and the great debate between objectivists and subjectivists. First some general quotes:

The first principle of scientific inquiry is that you must not fool yourself. And that you are the easiest person to fool. – Richard Feynman

This is America. Everyone is entitled to his own opinions, but not his own facts. – Daniel Patrick Moynehan

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But in practice, there is. – Jan L.A. Van De Snepscheut

Two longer quotes from Floyd E. Toole directly related to this question:

"Knowledge of the products that are being evaluated by subjective testing is generally understood to be a powerful source of psychological bias. In scientific tests of many kinds of human perception, even wine tasting, considerable effort is expended to hide the identity of what is being subjectively evaluated. In audio, though, things are more relaxed, and people, who are otherwise serious, persist in the belief that they are immune to the influence of such factors as price, size, brand name, etc. In some of these so-called great debate issues, such as whether amplifiers, wires, and the like have an audible effect, there are those who claim that disguising a product’s identity actually prevents listeners from hearing differences that are in the range of extremely small to inaudible. That debate shows no signs of slowing down."

"A wide spread belief among audio professionals is that they are immune to the influences of brand, price, appearance, and so on. They persist is conducting listening evaluations with the contending products in full view. This applies to persons in the recording industry, audio journalists/reviewers, and loudspeaker engineers. As this is being written, the 45th anniversary issue of Stereophile magazine (November 2007) arrived. In John Atkinson’s editorial, he interviewed J. Gordon Holt, the man who created the magazine. Holt commented as follows:

Audio as a hobby is dying, largely by its own hand. As far as the real world is concerned, high-end audio lost its credibility during the 1980s, when it flatly refused to submit to the kind of basic honesty controls (double-blind testing, for example) that had legitimized every other serious scientific endeavor since Pascal. [This refusal] is a source of endless derisive amusement among rational people and of perpetual embarrassment for me, because I am associated by so many people with the mess my disciples made of spreading my gospel."

And finally, one more quote for those who insist on the audible benefits of using high priced boutique audio cables:

No one in this world, so far as I know – and I have searched the record for years, and employed agents to help me – has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people. – H.L. Menken

Often shortened into:

No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.
 
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mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
I've heard from many audiophiles that the most accurate and finely tuned measuring devices are our senses...
If that was the case we would not need any mechanical measurement tools right?
And, the audiophile community would totally rely on their ears and nothing but their ears since you don't need your eyes to hear, nor need to know which component you are listening to.
But this isn't the case, they need to see and know.
 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
The best measurement tool is this three pound organ that resides on top of your head called the brain. The cerebrum is the largest part of the brain and is composed of right and left hemispheres. It performs higher functions like interpreting touch, vision and hearing, as well as speech, reasoning, emotions, learning, and fine control of movement.
The hearing part well that is controlled within the Temporal lobe. Now within the Temporal lobe is the Primary Auditory Cortex and that is where acoustic signals are processed. And as we all know nobody is constructed the same and each of our brain interprets different sensations like hearing differently. Sure our senses hearing
and sight allow us to move towards that final decision which is still controlled within your brain and not some measurement on paper. But I'm not sure if anyone is going into an audio shop and asking the salesman you want to touch and taste and smell that amp to ensure it will work in your home.:D So measurements are nice to have as a guide or a starting point toward defining what sounds good to you but a persons individual hearing and decision making ability should be the final decision maker. Oh and how do you know that the person making the measurements of that amp or speaker did it correctly, hey their human.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
IMO if we go by our own hearing and braining sense to choose and buy hi fi gear we are in a no win situation because:

1) We would have to conduct many in home listening to find out which gear we like most and we all know how tedious that process is going to be, i.e. listen at same level but doing so in different time, using the same media source each and every time, be in the same mood every time etc.etc.etc..........to the nth term.

2) If we do not do the above 1), then we would have not know if we have bought the one that sounds the best to us at our predetermined budget.

3) If we did do 1), then we would be relying on our auditory memory as we couldn't practically be listening to many in the same locations at the same time and do the many AB comparisons.

So I choose to go with graphs and figures, preferably those verified by lab measurements where available and I use live unamplified live concerts as my reference during auditioning sessions, but obviously have to rely on auditory memory.

I think another question to ask is how do hi fi gear design engineers voice there masterpieces to sound different (such as warmer or brighter) while aiming for accuracies at the same time? This question has to be answered unfiltered and directly by the engineers such as those from Anthem, Bryston, McIntosh, Parasound, Krell, ATI, Passlabs, Boulder, Moon, Luxman, Marantz, Denon such to name a few. I've sort of got an answer from one already. His response was quite different from that I previously obtained from his counterpart (both are top management in that company) in the sales department, and of course I was surprised.:D

I quoted the following in another thread but thought it was interesting enough to quote it the second time. It is from Mc's FAQ section (the last question).

"What is the different between tube and solid state McIntosh gear?

Performance between tube and transistor gear is almost identical in technical specifications, Many users request vacuum tube units that offer a slightly classical ‘tube’ sound, “warm” sound to the audio presentation. Tube and transistor models may be mixed and will all work together in a McIntosh component stereo. Download music. Many now use downloaded music as their main media source. Sound quality will always depend on the quality of the download files and the music system interface. McIntosh offers the most advanced computer USB interface in C48, C50 and MCD1100 which will maximize audio performance. Alas, we cannot make a low quality sound source high quality."

What do you think they really wanted to say? I think I know, and I believe they answered that question in the most honest way they thought they could without pissing anyone off. If they wanted to please those "many users" they would or might have said something like: Our tube gear are voiced to sound more warm and brassy, airy and our solid state gear are more accurate but some people may find that too clinical...........sort of BS.

Of course I am just guessing, YGMV.
 
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S

sharkman

Full Audioholic
The only thing that has as much influence on this debate other than our senses, is the reliability of human biases. And no matter what your opinion is on this matter, there are facts and data and sources to back it up on the net. That's because everything is true on the web.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I've heard from many audiophiles that the most accurate and finely tuned measuring devices are our senses.

I don't think our senses are remotely close to being the most accurate or finely tuned.

I laugh when I hear guys say they can actually hear the difference between a tweeter that is made of aluminum vs magnesium vs titanium vs beryllium vs diamond, etc.

Or the difference in sound made by a 6.5" driver vs 5.25" driver.

Or how the KEF LS50 is "voiced" while the KEF 201/2 is "neutral".

The flip side of the coin is when audiophiles use measurements to justify their amazing astute accurate sense of hearing. They can hear the improvement because they can see the piece of graph on paper. :D

They can hear the improvement because they can see the SNR, Crosstalk, THD, FR, etc.

They can hear the difference because, well, separates are just different than AVR. :D
 
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S

sharkman

Full Audioholic
True, I have to chuckle when audiophiles insist that all amps sound the same because, well, they just do.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
True, I have to chuckle when audiophiles insist that all amps sound the same because, well, they just do.
Of course, amps don't sound the same.

Some sound like chocolate. Some sound like vanilla.

Some sound like red wine. Some sound like white wine. Some sound like butter. Some sound sweet. Some sound bitter. Some sound bittersweet.

Some sound like Coke. Some sound like Pepsi.

Some sound artic. Some sound warm. Some sound hot.

Some sound forward. Some sound backward. Some sound sharp. Some sound dull. Some sound lifelike. Some sound dead.

It goes forever on end. Truly special.
 
S

sharkman

Full Audioholic
No no, i insist! They all sound the same. Different designs, different technologies, different parts and components, with different design goals and approaches, but from your 99 dollar jobbie to your $20,000 monster, they all, and I do mean ALL, sound exactly the same. It's a beautiful thing!:p
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
No no, i insist! They all sound the same. Different designs, different technologies, different parts and components, with different design goals and approaches, but from your 99 dollar jobbie to your $20,000 monster, they all, and I do mean ALL, sound exactly the same. It's a beautiful thing!:p
But...But....But....How can they sound the same if they use different capacitors, resistors, wires, heat sinks, cases? Even the screws, nuts, and bolts are all different? :eek: :D

How can they sound the same when one amp has a FR of +/-0.0dB and another has a FR of +/-0.1dB, one had a SNR of -120dB vs -110dB, Crosstalk of -100dB vs -70dB, outputs 300WPC vs 150WPC? That's impossible.
 

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