Standmount speakers: $2K, 4K or $6K?

[walter duque]

Yeah, I have listened to most of those, they are alright but not great. The RtR 1530 blows them away pretty easy. OP, if you are serious about getting good sound, you will get the RtR 1530, they may very well be the pinnacle of audio science:

For a while I thought that I was the only one that ever owned RTR's. I think I had every speaker they ever made. If I am not mistaken they where made by Fulton. BTW the Fulton Premiers from 79 or 80 where the best speakers I have ever owned. They where 6k at that time and I got them for 2k (floor models) when my local dealer closed up. What was amazing about the Premiers that they where build by ear, no measurements and they sounded awesome. I haven't heard speakers in the 50k range that could come even close to the Premiers. Even the 50k Infinity's (early 80's) which I also had for a day or two didn't even come close.

 

[zieglj01]

Yeah, I have listened to most of those, they are alright but not great. The RtR 1530 blows them away pretty easy. OP, if you are serious about getting good sound, you will get the RtR 1530, they may very well be the pinnacle of audio science:

And, only $114.99 each - online at Best Buy!

 

[walter duque]

And, only $144.99 each - online at Best Buy!

I am talking about the real RTR's not just the brand names they are selling these days. Now they just use brand names that where great in the past. Kef is one of them, so is Warfedale. I could go on and on with this list. These speaker brands form the past are not even real to me. These are just well know brand names from the past that they are cashing in on now. Take Klipsch for instance, to me there is only the Heritage Series that's the real deal the rest of their speakers are just chines made crap, but the name sells. I have seen Akai Plasma and Nakamichi displays in the past, they made reel to reels and cassette players, that's what put them on the map. The brand sells. BTW it's the flat piston drivers that put Kef on the map. Take a speaker 20' away from you take the grills and the name brand tag off and most people wouldn't know what the hell brand they are. Just take a look at this stock chart http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=HAR+Basic+Chart profit, profit, profit. I am not bashing any brands here, that's the last thing I want to do, to each it's own. When I look at Def Techs I fell like they are falling apart while I am looking at them. Like I said no brand bashing here, to each it's own.

Vintage RTR III F Speakers Huge Very Nice RARE | eBay

 

[zieglj01]

I am talking about the real RTR's not just the brand names they are selling these days. Now they just use brand names that where great in the past.
Vintage RTR III F Speakers Huge Very Nice RARE | eBay

I know where you are coming from.

People at Parts Express and Amazon are raving about the Bic RtR speakers
Bic even makes a version with a horn tweeter for about $100 more. > They
are more for extreme head-bangers who like noise. > That sure is a cheap
midrange and tweeter in the Bic knock-off.

 

[walter duque]

I know where you are coming from.

People at Parts Express and Amazon are raving about the Bic RtR speakers
Bic even makes a version with a horn tweeter for about $100 more. > They
are more for extreme head-bangers who like noise. > That sure is a cheap
midrange and tweeter in the Bic knock-off.

Revels are made in Mexico. Do you think they command such a retail price. I can see that you do agree with me. To me any company that claims "designed and engineered in the US" is cheap crap made in China that I stay way from.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

And, only $114.99 each - online at Best Buy!

Damn, for a second there I thought you guys were serious.

BIC America 15" 3Way Floor Speaker Each RTR1530 - Best Buy

 

[zieglj01]

Damn, for a second there I thought you guys were serious.

BIC America 15" 3Way Floor Speaker Each RTR1530 - Best Buy

The price went up in just a few hours, like Amazon

However, $118.91 at Parts Express - shipping via truck only
and not free
BIC RtR 1530 15" 3-Way Tower Speaker | 303-422

 

[zieglj01]

However, there is the RtR EV15 (horn tweeter) for only $211.89 each - shipping is
via truck only and is not free.
BIC RtR-EV15 15" Biampable Floor Speaker | 303-468

 

[jbltmp]

OK guys. As the OP I'll try to get this thread back on track!
Today I listened for about 1.5 hours each to the McIntosh XR50's ($4K) and the Totem Element Fires ($6K).
The Totems sounded excellent in just about every respect. Deep, tight, controlled base, smooth and musical mid's, and natural highs. I couldn't find anything major at fault, other than the $6K price tag.
Then I went to the Mac's, 2/3 the price of the Totems, but IMO less than 1/2 the performance. Shortcomings included light bass, constricted sound space and an overall veiled and dull sound. They covered up the mid-range faults of some bad recordings, but didn't capitalize on good ones...exactly what I don't want a speaker to do. They just looked and sounded like toys after seeing and hearing the Fires. I wasn't expecting much from a speaker made by McIntosh, but the XR50's fell short even of those expectations. Mac should stick to amps, and not much more.
Some have commented that the Totems are overpriced, and I had those comments in the back of my mind going into today. But after hearing them at length I'm starting to appreciate the value (though I don't know if it's $6K worth). I'm thinking these will likely be a final candidate for an in-home audition.
After today I do think the Mac's are overpriced at $4k. You can surely do a lot better for less.
On to the Revel M106's, and Dynaudio Confidence C1's next.

 

[Ponzio]

OK guys. As the OP I'll try to get this thread back on track!

Good luck with that.

Just out of curiosity, when you were demoing the Totem's did he have the "beak's" on the speakers? Because they truly do make the speakers sound better but are not included in the sale price. I think they charge a $100 bucks a pop. I forget now.
http://totemacoustic.com/en/accessories/

 

[jbltmp]

I only auditioned the Element Fires, which are stand mounted. The floor standing Element Earths and Element Metals on display did have the "beaks" on them

 

[Swerd]

Interesting impressions. Overall I think I understand your descriptions (and agree with your general preferences in speaker sound), although in those price ranges, I haven't paid close attention to stand mount speakers.

Can you describe the speakers you now own? Why are you replacing them? And can you tell us why you are limiting your search to stand mount speakers?

The Totems I've heard I thought were good overall, neutral and well balanced, but in my opinion, were too expensive to allow them to be seriously considered. They were the 2-way floor standing speakers like the Hawk and the Forest.

And, yes, McIntosh should stick to amps.

I'm not familiar with the others on your short list.

OK guys. As the OP I'll try to get this thread back on track!

Yes, good luck with that . Did you get the PM?

 

[zieglj01]

Then I went to the Mac's, 2/3 the price of the Totems, but IMO less than 1/2 the performance. Shortcomings included light bass, constricted sound space and an overall veiled and dull sound. They covered up the mid-range faults of some bad recordings, but didn't capitalize on good ones...exactly what I don't want a speaker to do. They just looked and sounded like toys after seeing and hearing the Fires. I wasn't expecting much from a speaker made by McIntosh, but the XR50's fell short even of those expectations. Mac should stick to amps, and not much more.

Even their 5 figure towers fall short, compared to some towers under $2000
And, their Amps and Pre-amps can not help their speakers.

Continue to have fun with the adventure

 

[jbltmp]

So, a little more background.
I now own a pair of custom-made speakers I had made several years ago when my listening space was quite large. These were made by a customer speaker house in Phoenix, AZ called Speakers, ETC. The speakers are a conventional 3-way design, using Focal drivers for tweeters and mid's and 12 inch woofers, no sub wanted or needed (I don't know the manufacturer of the woofers). These have been a reference for me for a long time. I've particularly liked the Focal inverted dome tweeter.
I have now moved into a house where I can set up a separate system in a smaller room (13 x 15), and I am looking for a stand mount that will give me studio monitor-like accuracy, but not need to produce prodigious bass. I have a varied musical background as a musician, band member (weren't we all?), singer, DJ, audio salesman and now just hobbyist. My longest stint was as a club DJ where I played music I liked, but through mostly bad club systems and usually listening through just one earphone to cue up the next song! So now I'm kicking back and listening to all that music (mostly 80's stuff) with a "truthful" sound system so I can hear what I was missing all those years, and with both ears .
Therefore, my focus is on stand mounts. (which also makes the search a lot easier)
Thanks again for all the helpful comments on this thread.

 

[Ponzio]

So, a little more background.
I now own a pair of custom-made speakers I had made several years ago when my listening space was quite large. These were made by a customer speaker house in Phoenix, AZ called Speakers, ETC. The speakers are a conventional 3-way design, using Focal drivers for tweeters and mid's and 12 inch woofers, no sub wanted or needed (I don't know the manufacturer of the woofers). These have been a reference for me for a long time. I've particularly liked the Focal inverted dome tweeter.
I have now moved into a house where I can set up a separate system in a smaller room (13 x 15), and I am looking for a stand mount that will give me studio monitor-like accuracy, but not need to produce prodigious bass. I have a varied musical background as a musician, band member (weren't we all?), singer, DJ, audio salesman and now just hobbyist. My longest stint was as a club DJ where I played music I liked, but through mostly bad club systems and usually listening through just one earphone to cue up the next song! So now I'm kicking back and listening to all that music (mostly 80's stuff) with a "truthful" sound system so I can hear what I was missing all those years, and with both ears .
Therefore, my focus is on stand mounts. (which also makes the search a lot easier)
Thanks again for all the helpful comments on this thread.

Now that I know the size of the room, go listen to some KEF LS50's too and pick up a really good sub. That's what I have in my office (14'x14') and while it's not as good as my Focal 1027Be setup in the main room (20'x20'), it sure comes dam close. You know sometimes I regret not being able to afford the Joseph Audio Pulsar's but I have to wonder at times if it wouldn't have been overkill for this room. Or am I just bucking myself up? Better living thru denial.

 

[jbltmp]

Great call on the KEF LS50's. Very impressive for a mini-monitor.

 

[jbltmp]

Yesterday I visited two of the better high end stores in San Francisco to try and wrap up my $2K-$4K-$6K stand mount decision (although some higher than $6K models have entered in along the way!). I started with the Dynaudio Confidence C1 Signature ($9K w/ stands). An awesome speaker with an unusual design that, rather than cosmetic, is mostly crafted with the goal of better sound - which I think by most measures was achieved. (Although after staring at the speaker for an hour and a half I still don’t know if I like the appearance or not). It was by far the most detailed and precise speaker I’ve heard, where I felt I was getting the most information off the recording I ever had. But compared to the Totem Element Fires the bottom end of the C1’s was less satisfying to me. It just seems like the woofer rolls off a bit too soon, and I was afraid I’d be leaping for a bass tone control which I won’t have, or a sub which I don’t want, to round out the overall sound. Artificial or not, the Totem just sounded fuller and more satisfying. I think the Dynaudio would really shine in a larger room with a lot of power driving it to get the lower octaves going. For me and my setting, it just wasn’t compelling enough for $9K.
That was the hard part, after which things got easier. I listened to the Dali Epicon 2’s ($8K with stands) which did a little better on the low end, but were lacking on just about every other aspect compared to the Dynaudio’s. (But that’s not to say it’s not a good speaker)
Then went to another store to audition the Revel M106 - my $2K candidate ($2500 w/ stands), Paradigm Signature 2 ($3900 w/ stands) and Sonus Faber Olympica 1 ($7700 w/ stands). Although the Revels sounded veiled and distant in comparison to the reference quality Dynaudio, I think they are the best value of all the speakers I auditioned, with the KEF R300 I heard a few weeks ago a close second. I could easily live with these Revels if I wanted to spend less. The Paradigm’s were a significant step up, but sounded congested on some complex passages and seemed to break up in the lower-mids at higher volumes. Finally, the Sonus Fabers had a surprising amount of bass for a less than 6” woofer, but the energy that I liked in the Totems just wasn’t there for me. Besides, I couldn’t reconcile paying $1200 for stands that are required to have them sound their best.
So, the front runner for me is still the $6K Totem Element Series Fire, which I will audition at home before committing. To some extent my journey has proven the addage “you get what you pay for” but there are many cases I experienced to the contrary, and if you’re willing to put in the time and effort I think you may find an exception that works in your favor.
I’m not planning more speaker auditions at this point unless the home trial of the Fires doesn’t go well. Although, based on several “gotta hear Salk” suggestions on this thread I am trying to figure out how to audition the Veracity HT1’s. (Does anyone out there have any idea of what they would cost?...I couldn’t find any indication on the Salk web site)
Finally, I heard a lot of good electronics along the way, which really have me re-thinking the McIntosh integrated decision. Maybe that’s where the journey turns next.

 

[TheStalker]

Yesterday I visited two of the better high end stores in San Francisco to try and wrap up my $2K-$4K-$6K stand mount decision (although some higher than $6K models have entered in along the way!). I started with the Dynaudio Confidence C1 Signature ($9K w/ stands). An awesome speaker with an unusual design that, rather than cosmetic, is mostly crafted with the goal of better sound - which I think by most measures was achieved. (Although after staring at the speaker for an hour and a half I still don’t know if I like the appearance or not). It was by far the most detailed and precise speaker I’ve heard, where I felt I was getting the most information off the recording I ever had. But compared to the Totem Element Fires the bottom end of the C1’s was less satisfying to me. It just seems like the woofer rolls off a bit too soon, and I was afraid I’d be leaping for a bass tone control which I won’t have, or a sub which I don’t want, to round out the overall sound. Artificial or not, the Totem just sounded fuller and more satisfying. I think the Dynaudio would really shine in a larger room with a lot of power driving it to get the lower octaves going. For me and my setting, it just wasn’t compelling enough for $9K.
That was the hard part, after which things got easier. I listened to the Dali Epicon 2’s ($8K with stands) which did a little better on the low end, but were lacking on just about every other aspect compared to the Dynaudio’s. (But that’s not to say it’s not a good speaker)
Then went to another store to audition the Revel M106 - my $2K candidate ($2500 w/ stands), Paradigm Signature 2 ($3900 w/ stands) and Sonus Faber Olympica 1 ($7700 w/ stands). Although the Revels sounded veiled and distant in comparison to the reference quality Dynaudio, I think they are the best value of all the speakers I auditioned, with the KEF R300 I heard a few weeks ago a close second. I could easily live with these Revels if I wanted to spend less. The Paradigm’s were a significant step up, but sounded congested on some complex passages and seemed to break up in the lower-mids at higher volumes. Finally, the Sonus Fabers had a surprising amount of bass for a less than 6” woofer, but the energy that I liked in the Totems just wasn’t there for me. Besides, I couldn’t reconcile paying $1200 for stands that are required to have them sound their best.
So, the front runner for me is still the $6K Totem Element Series Fire, which I will audition at home before committing. To some extent my journey has proven the addage “you get what you pay for” but there are many cases I experienced to the contrary, and if you’re willing to put in the time and effort I think you may find an exception that works in your favor.
I’m not planning more speaker auditions at this point unless the home trial of the Fires doesn’t go well. Although, based on several “gotta hear Salk” suggestions on this thread I am trying to figure out how to audition the Veracity HT1’s. (Does anyone out there have any idea of what they would cost?...I couldn’t find any indication on the Salk web site)
Finally, I heard a lot of good electronics along the way, which really have me re-thinking the McIntosh integrated decision. Maybe that’s where the journey turns next.

I agree with a lot of what you say. Very good observations. Now you have me curious to go out and listen to the Totem Fires. It's one of the few speakers that I haven't heard yet.

Since you have custom made Focal speakers, I have an idea of what you like. See if you can find a showroom to listen to the Focal speakers, like the Diablo Utopia, or at least the Electra 1008 Be. The Beryllium tweeters are sensational.

Also, my recommendation would be to stay away from internet direct companies. You'll just end up wasting money to audition them. The RAAL tweeters are nothing special. Typical ribbon poor quality sound. Once you hear a Dynaudio Esotar, or a Focal Beryllium, or a B&W diamond, there's no going back to anything else. I would rank Salk and Ascend with Revel, Paradigm, KEF, PSB, etc. They are good, but once you hear the best, they become completely meaningless.

 

[TheStalker]

Oh and one more recommendation I have is the ATC speakers. Some of those are pretty incredible.

 

[fuzz092888]

The Veracity HT1's start at $2700 + shipping and go up from there. You would contact Jim Salk at the e-mail address listed on the website and give him your location and ask him if he has any customers near you that would be willing to demo. You may also want to check out Philharmonic Audio. They're a company owned and operated by Dennis Murphy who does a lot of crossover work for Salk and his speakers are excellent as well, although the Salks definitely have better fit and finish.

I wouldn't go with the Mc integrated, just because I think you can do at least as well for the money and give yourself more flexibility in the end.

One last thing, if anyone tells you to stay away from ID companies or that the RAAL is "nothing special" or that they aren't some of the better speakers out there, take that with a grain of salt. A very large one. Remember, those red bars don't get there by magic

Cheers, and good luck with your search.

I’m not planning more speaker auditions at this point unless the home trial of the Fires doesn’t go well. Although, based on several “gotta hear Salk” suggestions on this thread I am trying to figure out how to audition the Veracity HT1’s. (Does anyone out there have any idea of what they would cost?...I couldn’t find any indication on the Salk web site)
Finally, I heard a lot of good electronics along the way, which really have me re-thinking the McIntosh integrated decision. Maybe that’s where the journey turns next.