Aperion Audio Verus Grand Loudspeaker System Reviewed

L

litmu

Enthusiast
I have owned many receivers, and I only hear a small difference in the
processing. And not enough, to even think about a debate. The biggest
differences that I do pick up, is in noise or distortion.
While I haven't owned many Amps, so treat my word as it may, but IMHO they "could" make dramatic difference. And I'm not overly fond of Emotiva (they are irritatingly self praising) but I have to admit when I upgraded from yamaha 100x5 receiver (worth $899 from BBY at the time) to Emo XPA-5, it was a day 'n night difference and my cheap Polks were sounding so larger with a big soundscape. But that said, the same Emo amp, when I connect to Magnepan 1.6's, there is considerable distortion I hear (although I haven't used Mag with a different receiver since so cant testify further on that). So while I dont know the underlying theory here, but personally I think there is difference from amp to amp (and the way it makes different speakers sound differently)
 
S

SunnyD

Audioholic Intern
While I haven't owned many Amps, so treat my word as it may, but IMHO they "could" make dramatic difference. And I'm not overly fond of Emotiva (they are irritatingly self praising) but I have to admit when I upgraded from yamaha 100x5 receiver (worth $899 from BBY at the time) to Emo XPA-5, it was a day 'n night difference and my cheap Polks were sounding so larger with a big soundscape. But that said, the same Emo amp, when I connect to Magnepan 1.6's, there is considerable distortion I hear (although I haven't used Mag with a different receiver since so cant testify further on that). So while I dont know the underlying theory here, but personally I think there is difference from amp to amp (and the way it makes different speakers sound differently)
Those two pieces of equipment aren't in the same ball park in specs. That's the underlying theory in the first case.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
I don't think there's any question that current amplifier rating standards won't tell you much about how various amps will sound with all channels driven to full power with all channels driven. But how often does that happen in real world conditions? I don't think there's any empirical evidence that typical program material will present that kind of load to all channels at full bast into all channels. I worked for many years at the Federal Trade Commission to come up with a sensible standard for rating multichannel amplifiers, and I finally gave up. The all-channels-driven standard is clearly too conservative. One-channel-driven is cleary bogus. There's a wide range of choices in between, but tax dollars would probably be better spent helping the poor than fine tuning a "correct" standard. That said, I share your frustration with relying purely on blind ABX tests to judge amplifiers. It's extremely difficult to conduct those tests correctly, and the chances of a false negative are quite high. Based on my personal experience, I don't think there is much difference between amplifiers if they aren't taxed beyond their design limits. But we're back to personal opinion, which means we're back to what I suspect will be a never-ending debate.
I haven't been following this thread closely but I find this post interesting since I used to design amplifiers as a EE and now I measure them when reviewing them on this site.

I wrote several articles on the pitfalls of the ACD Test such as this one:
The All Channels Driven (ACD) Amplifier Test — Reviews and News from Audioholics

I also came up with a basic amplifier measurement standard that we use on all products reviewed at audioholics:
Basic Amplifier Measurement Techniques — Reviews and News from Audioholics

As you can see in the above article, we test:
  • continuous power into 2 channels fullbandwidth into 8/4 ohm loads
  • 1kHz ACD per what most of the print magazines do into 8 ohm loads for receivers and 4 ohm loads for power amps
  • CEA 2006 Dynamic Power testing into 8 / 4 ohm loads

I think this combination of testing gives a very good indication of amplifier power capability with the CEA testing being more representative of real world testing. I ran this by the guys at UL and Audio Precision and they really liked it. But there is more to an amplifiers sonic character than just raw power. This is why we measure channel to channel crosstalk, SNR, distortion, etc.

Now as far as amplifiers all sounding the same until they exceed their linear operating region, I firmly disagree. An amp with a high noise floor masks low level detail. I've heard this effect directly when comparing pro amps to high quality home theater amplifiers. I also did extensive testing with Class D amps vs linear amps and how they sound powering bass drivers. To my surprise I found the most dynamic and snappy bass driving the subs in my RBH T30 speaker system using an Axiom A-1400-8 Class D amp over my Denon POA-A1HDCI linear amp. The differences were not subtle and were easily heard by myself and other listeners during ABX testing. That being said, almost everyone preferred the linear amp for the mid/high frequencies. I believe the Class D amp had more ability to deliver instantaneous current than the linear amp which was seen in the dynamic power testing. Oddly however the audible differences still existed even at low power levels where neither amp was even close to clipping.

When it comes to loudspeakers and amplifiers, measurements are VERY important but they don't ultimately replace a controlled listening test to determine what works best for the particular application.

As far as equipment synergy, it does exist! If you have an amp with a high zero gain crossing driving a highly reactive load, it will alter steadystate frequency response and ultimately tonally shift the experience. Many Class D amps lack adequate post filter feedback and are very load dependent.

The bottom line here is don't generalize and think everything is known about a products performance from just a few steady state measurements. With passive devices such as cables that may be true. But, amplifiers and especially loudspeakers and how they play into a room and ultimately integrate back into our hearing mechanism is a more complex process than we can always measure with a high degree of confidence.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
We can generalize that we all have different opinions.

We can generalize that some people can hear the difference, and some people cannot.

I have never been able to tell the difference among amps, but I should not expect anyone else to feel the same because everyone else has a difference experience than mine.

No one can prove that he is absolutely correct. Period.
 
N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
Gene,

I agree a higher noise floor will likely be audible; I assume Dennis would agree. I am more of he Peter Aczel belief system in that amplifiers having high input impedance, low output impedance, flat frequency response, low distortion, and low noise floor sound more similar than not when operated at matched levels and not clipped. Although Peter thinks they sound exactly the same, and I do not. To each their own I guess.

But yeah, if the amps measure similarly I would likely struggle to hear the differences. Although, sometimes it takes time to hear what it's doing in your system (it's all about synergy). In some of these double blind tests the listeners are expected to hear the difference within a few seconds or minutes; that just isn't enough time IMO, but to each their own. I am a fan of ABX tests, but the double blind, level matched variety are nearly impossible to conduct correctly, unless you're Harman International, of course.:)

By the way, I'm off to check out the articles you linked (thanks); it'll be some good reading while I'm home sick today.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Gene...

Does having a higher measured noise floor, truly contribute to sound quality if the noise floor isn't audible? I just don't see how that works. Especially with the typical 85-88db sensitive speaker.

I think crossover distortion is the biggest contributor to reduced low level detail. JMO.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
In some of these double blind tests the listeners are expected to hear the difference within a few seconds or minutes; that just isn't enough time IMO, but to each their own.
I fully agree, but as I have said repeatedly in the past, every time I see someone using expressions such as "even at low listening level", the difference is huge, immediate...., hearing details never hear before....etc., I associated such claims with subjective, implusive, placebo, exaggeration,....and bs (sometimes)........, when they are comparing a very decent avr or amps to something simply costs much more or has double the power output.
 
W

wyowolf

Audiophyte
What a timely post. I just am going back and forth between the VGTs and the STs.... i am leaning toward the STs but i think would be pretty happy either way...

I had the BW CM8s and they were OK, but for what I paid a little overpriced... IMO...
 
I

ImmortalServant

Audiophyte
Interesting that such a subjective subject produces people thinking that the quality of a speaker is purely objective.

Just because there is no (or no known) measurement for something does not mean that it does not exist. Scientists confirm the existence of a matter or energy that they can not measure or see which I think is called "dark matter"

Also, we can not measure scientifically how attractive a woman is, but still there is a general concensus that certain women are considerably more attractive (like supermodels). We do have numbers we can use like weight and waist, head, arm size; however a woman can weigh the perfect amount and have the right curves according to our scientific measurements and still be completely unattractive to the majority of people.

There is likely the same phenomenon in audio. The numbers may be the same for what we can measure in two different speakers, but wjat we can't measure may make all the difference to the quality of the sound.

Plus, certain sounds we can not hear still have an effect on the ones we do. (Such as those lower or higher than the human ear can distinguish)
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I really shouldn't reply to this but what the hell. The science of audio is in and is pretty well understood by scientists. There can be no analogy between that and dark matter, and besides, dark matter is known to exist because of measurements, not in spite of them. There is no corresponding mystery in audio. Sexual attraction is also pretty well understood and pretty thoroughly quantified, you may want to read a modern text on the subject. Human perception in both sexual attraction and audio have been studied intensively for many decades, and if there are any mysteries still remaining, please point one out specifically.
 
I

ImmortalServant

Audiophyte
http://www.ta.chalmers.se/education.php?page=crs_hrsv

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/the-scientific-rules-of-attraction-2115495.htmlhttp://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/the-scientific-rules-of-attraction-2115495.htmlhttp://www.cnn.com/2013/04/15/health/brain-music-research/

Elusive dark matter may already have been found - NBC News.com

They can not measure the dark matter. They just know it exists because of other things that they can measure.



Theories. No scientific facts for attraction, what dark matter is or why we respond like we do to music. You can see a pattern, but that does not explain human reaction to said pattern.
 
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S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Your first link does nothing to support your arguments, in fact it only looks like a description for a course. Your second link does not support your claim, if anything it refutes it. Your third link does not support your argument. Dark matter was discovered by measurement because galactic movement was measured to have more motion than what theory would support. Anyway, you are shifting the argument to the uncertainty of theories, and of course scientific theories will never be one hundred percent certain. But the mountains of peer reviewed studies do not support any of your claims. There is no ineffable quality about these speakers (or women) in the sense that you speak, at least as far as I know. You are romanticizing these subjects to create an air of mystery that isn't factually deserved. And your analogy of dark matter is far too dissimilar to work. I have to give you points though, your example of some mysteriously ugly women as a point in favor of unmeasurable subjectivity was hilariously misogynistic, so points for brashness.
 
I

ImmortalServant

Audiophyte
It is not worth my time to point out the parts of the articles to you that make my point, or to completely dissect the differences for you. You certainly appear to put a lot of faith in science though.

I guess we shall just agree to disagree.
 
zhimbo

zhimbo

Audioholic General
I don't know ANYONE who says that choosing the best quality speaker is *purely* objective. Of course there's subjectivity and personal preference. But if something affects the sound, we can measure the sound. If the sound has no measurable change, there has been no change to the sound. Period. No amount of half-baked (or possibly fully "baked") analogies to dark matter (WTF?) changes that.
 
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R

ReUpRo

Full Audioholic
Theories. No scientific facts for attraction, what dark matter is or why we respond like we do to music. You can see a pattern, but that does not explain human reaction to said pattern.
Not trying to be pedantic here, but, 'scientific theory' is not synonymous with 'theory' as used in non scientific context.

A scientific theory is a rule or set of principles that generate testable predictions. For example, Einstein's Theory of Relativity predicted time dilation and this has been verified to be true. A non scientific person uses 'theory' as a synonym for, conjecture or best guess based on incomplete information.

I felt the need to clarify this since you quoted "science stuff".
 
I

ImmortalServant

Audiophyte
Not trying to be pedantic here, but, 'scientific theory' is not synonymous with 'theory' as used in non scientific context.

A scientific theory is a rule or set of principles that generate testable predictions.
What are the testable predictions of the scientific theory of macroevolution?

By the way once a scientific theory is proved through testable predictions it is no longer a theory: it becomes a law or fact.

As for my earlier links: "Another aim is to underline the relative uncertainly of current knowledge of human reaction to noise and vibration and to make the student aware of the dangers in predicting human response from currently typical measurement data." We don't have a full understanding of our reaction to sounds.

As for the attraction to women. The article explains that we have lots of theories both about what aspects are attractive and why we interpret those aspects as attractive, but no facts as to either. No facts to explain our reaction to those things- same as no facts to explain our reaction to sound.

The dark matter issue was just to prove there are things that science still does not understand. It is awful small minded to think we have completely unraveled the mystery of any aspect of science, including sound. It that were the case there would not be so many people still studying it.

Why are speaker companies still tweaking designs of speakers? If we understood everything about physics and sound then we would already have the perfect speaker, no reason to keep tweaking.
 
zhimbo

zhimbo

Audioholic General
What are the testable predictions of the scientific theory of macroevolution?
Here's a start:
29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: The Scientific Case for Common Descent

And, please note, that is not an invitation to debate evolution. Rather, if you work through that site, you'll find specific testable predictions for evolution on a "macro" scale. You asked what they were, now you can find out. You don't have agree that the evidence supports those predictions or not, but testable predictions do exist.

By the way once a scientific theory is proved through testable predictions it is no longer a theory: it becomes a law or fact.
And, with that, you reveal yourself as scientifically illiterate. You're in good company, there's no shame in it, but you should know that. What you write above simply is NOT what those words mean. Theories, facts, and laws are different sorts of things entirely, not rungs on a ladder of certainty.

Theory does NOT mean "supposition" or "unproven". It means "explanation". Furthermore, scientists rarely about anything being "proven", which implies mathematical certainly. Things are supported or confirmed to varying degrees. A highly confirmed theory (explanation) is STILL a theory (explanation.)

A law does NOT mean "proven". A "law" is an observed regularity, often but not always with a mathematical formulation.

Fact is not actually all that commonly used in professional scientific writing, but typically it means something so well confirmed that we can put it to rest for the time being. (Even "facts" in science are not 100% certain. Nothing is.)

Here are a couple explanatory links for more information:
How to Explain the Difference Between Theory, Law, and a Fact
Definitions of Fact, Theory, and Law in Scientific Work | NCSE
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
What are the testable predictions of the scientific theory of macroevolution?
Transitional fossils
By the way once a scientific theory is proved through testable predictions it is no longer a theory: it becomes a law or fact.
A 'law' maybe, but scientific theories are never absolute facts by virtue of being falsifiable.

As for my earlier links: "Another aim is to underline the relative uncertainly of current knowledge of human reaction to noise and vibration and to make the student aware of the dangers in predicting human response from currently typical measurement data." We don't have a full understanding of our reaction to sounds.
That says nothing specific. No doubt the science of sound perception is incomplete, but that link doesn't say how. As far as loudspeakers and human perception go, there is little in the way of mystery.

As for the attraction to women. The article explains that we have lots of theories both about what aspects are attractive and why we interpret those aspects as attractive, but no facts as to either. No facts to explain our reaction to those things- same as no facts to explain our reaction to sound.
That article discusses the interpretation of data, but your original claim was a dispute of the data itself. That article addresses the 'why', but your contention was a 'how'.

The dark matter issue was just to prove there are things that science still does not understand. It is awful small minded to think we have completely unraveled the mystery of any aspect of science, including sound. It that were the case there would not be so many people still studying it.
No one is saying that science already has all the answers, but as far as audio engineering goes with respect to conventional loud speakers, the body of evidence is well established and isn't in danger of being upturned by audiophile hucksters. Go sift through the JAES archives. The serious experiments taking place are not being done on boutique capaciters.

Why are speaker companies still tweaking designs of speakers? If we understood everything about physics and sound then we would already have the perfect speaker, no reason to keep tweaking.
First of all, the 'perfect speaker' is application dependent. Secondly, all speakers designs have trade-offs, so there can never be a perfect speaker, and this is partly the reason for continuous tweaking. Furthermore, some of these tweaks exist to exploit those unfamiliar with established audio science for the purposes of making a buck.
 

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