Aperion Audio Verus Grand Loudspeaker System Reviewed

[Hicks]

I'm not going to wade into the speaker break in debate, but here's a question for the group:

Say after talking to hundreds of customers that anecdotally I notice that they mention that one receiver brand tends to make our speakers sound a certain way, is it improper for me as a representative of Aperion to share the information given to me by other customers in order to help new customers make decisions?

Does sharing such unscientifically gathered information mislead the customer if it is qualified as such?

 

[GranteedEV]

Say after talking to hundreds of customers that anecdotally I notice that they mention that one receiver brand tends to make our speakers sound a certain way, is it improper for me as a representative of Aperion to share the information given to me by other customers in order to help new customers make decisions?

Hi Jason. I have to say that yes, it is improper simply because there's no indication / knowledge of "why". Is it truly because Onkyo/Yamaha/Denon make flawed electronics and Marantz/NAD/Emotiva don't? In what way are they flawed?

I can't answer that question without first hand knowledge/analysis so it would be improper for myself as just a regular forum member to make that statement. To add in 2nd/3rd hand knowledge (customer hearsay) into the equation is even worse.

Does that mean all electronics sound the same? Of course not. But if there is indeed a difference we need real support to any suggestions. There's a lot of placebo effect experienced out there plain and simple. Does that mean you should chalk it up to placebo effect? Of course not. But confirm and suspect everything; or simply give the disclaimer that there's no sureness (there isn't) but you use x brand in house with sucess.

 

[Hicks]

Hi Jason. I have to say that yes, it is improper simply because there's no indication / knowledge of "why". Is it truly because Onkyo/Yamaha/Denon make flawed electronics and Marantz/NAD/Emotiva don't? In what way are they flawed?

I can't answer that question without first hand knowledge/analysis so it would be improper for myself as just a regular forum member to make that statement. To add in 2nd/3rd hand knowledge (customer hearsay) into the equation is even worse.

Does that mean all electronics sound the same? Of course not. But if there is indeed a difference we need real support to any suggestions. There's a lot of placebo effect experienced out there plain and simple. Does that mean you should chalk it up to placebo effect? Of course not. But confirm and suspect everything; or simply give the disclaimer that there's no sureness (there isn't) but you use x brand in house with sucess.

Sure and I do qualify it with a "I don't know why this is, but I have heard from several customers that. . .", and I think given that context then information of that nature is helpful to people out there who are trying to make informed decisions. If people know where the information is coming from then I think they are, or at least should be, sophisticated enough to accept or reject that information on the basis of its merits.

If I notice a trend across a large number of conversations with customers, personally I think holding that information back ultimately is not in the customer's best interest, but that's undoubtedly an opinion on my part.

 

[GranteedEV]

If I notice a trend across a large number of conversations with customers, personally I think holding that information back ultimately is not in the customer's best interest, but that's undoubtedly an opinion on my part.

If such a trend is noticed, it would make sense to contact y manufacturer to identify/verify the source of the issue; assuming there actually is one. Else customer with y manufactuer's product may be dissuaded away from a product that potentially would have worked 100% correctly for their application.

 

[MinusTheBear]

I'm not going to wade into the speaker break in debate, but here's a question for the group:

Say after talking to hundreds of customers that anecdotally I notice that they mention that one receiver brand tends to make our speakers sound a certain way, is it improper for me as a representative of Aperion to share the information given to me by other customers in order to help new customers make decisions?

Does sharing such unscientifically gathered information mislead the customer if it is qualified as such?

Based on "sound quality" alone I would say yes it can be misleading. Denon are warm, Yamaha's are bright sounding...etc.

On the other hand, take for example, if a manufacturer is getting lots of complaints of their speakers shutting down certain receiver brands or models, then I think it would be wise for the manufacturer to recommend or not recommend certain brands to the customer.

 

[SunnyD]

I recently received my Aperion GVTs and center. I have em powered by my Yam A3000. They sound very good. It's more likely the tier of receiver they are using to push the speakers, than a brand of receiver. Broad paint strokes about brands, sounds more like pushing certain products.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm not going to wade into the speaker break in debate, but here's a question for the group:

Say after talking to hundreds of customers that anecdotally I notice that they mention that one receiver brand tends to make our speakers sound a certain way, is it improper for me as a representative of Aperion to share the information given to me by other customers in order to help new customers make decisions?

Does sharing such unscientifically gathered information mislead the customer if it is qualified as such?

Just realize that there have been actual double-blinded studies proving that there is no statistical differences among amps.

The one about the $300 Pioneer AVR vs the $10,000 Boulder amp comes to mind.

Amps, pre-amps, DAC, cables don't have sounds of there own.

DSP/EQ in processors will sound differently.

In direct modes, you will not notice a difference between a Yamaha, Denon, Marantz, Pioneer, Onkyo, Harman Kardon.

People will claim to hear all kinds of things. But double-blinded studies have proven otherwise.

Level-match all the amps, and they will sound the same. The problem is, most people do not level-match the comparisons.

So just don't tell people to break-in the speakers, and don't tell them to buy new AVR or amps.

 

[Hicks]

It just seems to me that there is a double standard being applied here, it's not OK for me to discuss other customer's experiences with different products, but it is OK to reference a conversation that someone heard about on a forum as evidence that Aperion is giving out false information.

 

[Hicks]

Just realize that there have been actual double-blinded studies proving that there is no statistical differences among amps.

The one about the $300 Pioneer AVR vs the $10,000 Boulder amp comes to mind.

Amps, pre-amps, DAC, cables don't have sounds of there own.

DSP/EQ in processors will sound differently.

In direct modes, you will not notice a difference between a Yamaha, Denon, Marantz, Pioneer, Onkyo, Harman Kardon.

People will claim to hear all kinds of things. But double-blinded studies have proven otherwise.

Level-match all the amps, and they will sound the same. The problem is, most people do not level-match the comparisons.

So just don't tell people to break-in the speakers, and don't tell them to buy new AVR or amps.

How about this scenario:

Receiver A is rated at 100 watts/channel by manufacturer A

Receiver B is rated at 100 watts/channel by manufacturer B

Receiver A is shown to begin clipping when delivering 50 watts/channel with all channels driven.

Receiver B is shown to begin clipping when delivering 75 watts/channel with all channels driven.

You are saying that discrepancies between stated specs and real world performance like the above don't happen?

 

[Dennis Murphy]

How about this scenario:

Receiver A is rated at 100 watts/channel by manufacturer A

Receiver B is rated at 100 watts/channel by manufacturer B

Receiver A is shown to begin clipping when delivering 50 watts/channel with all channels driven.

Receiver B is shown to begin clipping when delivering 75 watts/channel with all channels driven.

You are saying that discrepancies between stated specs and real world performance like the above don't happen?

I don't think there's any question that current amplifier rating standards won't tell you much about how various amps will sound with all channels driven to full power with all channels driven. But how often does that happen in real world conditions? I don't think there's any empirical evidence that typical program material will present that kind of load to all channels at full bast into all channels. I worked for many years at the Federal Trade Commission to come up with a sensible standard for rating multichannel amplifiers, and I finally gave up. The all-channels-driven standard is clearly too conservative. One-channel-driven is cleary bogus. There's a wide range of choices in between, but tax dollars would probably be better spent helping the poor than fine tuning a "correct" standard. That said, I share your frustration with relying purely on blind ABX tests to judge amplifiers. It's extremely difficult to conduct those tests correctly, and the chances of a false negative are quite high. Based on my personal experience, I don't think there is much difference between amplifiers if they aren't taxed beyond their design limits. But we're back to personal opinion, which means we're back to what I suspect will be a never-ending debate.

 

[Nuance AH]

Well said, Dennis. I agree.

With that said, I don't think it's fair to claim Aperion is giving out false information unless there is proof. I think Hicks' explanation is credible. And even is one brand does sound better with his speakers, so what? Patching a flaw with another flaw is no way to get things done (I'm not saying his speakers are flawed), but if you all found an amp that made your system sound better, even though it was due to a flaw, would you honestly care or would you be happy that the sound improved? In the end it's all about system synergy, which especially includes fixing the listening room; a major flaw most people don't bother resolving. There is no perfect speaker or piece of equipment, so we all just need to find the ones who's flaws we're willing to live with.

 

[GranteedEV]

It just seems to me that there is a double standard being applied here, it's not OK for me to discuss other customer's experiences with different products, but it is OK to reference a conversation that someone heard about on a forum as evidence that Aperion is giving out false information.

I haven't really been following the specifics of the issue so I don't quite understand what you're talking about. I was only responding to your earlier question.

Cheers

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

How about this scenario:

Receiver A is rated at 100 watts/channel by manufacturer A

Receiver B is rated at 100 watts/channel by manufacturer B

Receiver A is shown to begin clipping when delivering 50 watts/channel with all channels driven.

Receiver B is shown to begin clipping when delivering 75 watts/channel with all channels driven.

You are saying that discrepancies between stated specs and real world performance like the above don't happen?

It's more likely if we are talking about a HTIB from Samsung, Panasonic, Sony, Bose, but not likely if we are talking about a $500+ 7.1 AVR from Yamaha, Onkyo, Pioneer, Denon, etc.

But I have to admit I have a big mouth.

It is a matter of opinions, and I should not have said anything derogatory towards Aperion or anyone else. I apologize for my big mouth.

We can all differ in opinions and still get along.

Like I don't believe in all that "synergy" or amps/AVR sounding different.

And I roll my eyes when I see people say speaker "A" sounds better than all these $20K speakers.

 

[Nuance AH]

And I roll my eyes when I see people say this speaker sounds better than all these $20K speakers.

But if we're talking Wilson speakers then the comment applies, right?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

But if we're talking Wilson speakers then the comment applies, right?

Maybe. Maybe not.

I've never listened to Wilson Audio before.

It applies if we are talking about B&W speakers.

It doesn't apply when we are talking about speakers that have been named "speakers of the year" by so many audiophiles and publications like Soundstage & Stereophile.

 

[Hicks]

Well said, Dennis. I agree.

With that said, I don't think it's fair to claim Aperion is giving out false information unless there is proof. I think Hicks' explanation is credible. And even is one brand does sound better with his speakers, so what? Patching a flaw with another flaw is no way to get things done (I'm not saying his speakers are flawed), but if you all found an amp that made your system sound better, even though it was due to a flaw, would you honestly care or would you be happy that the sound improved? In the end it's all about system synergy, which especially includes fixing the listening room; a major flaw most people don't bother resolving. There is no perfect speaker or piece of equipment, so we all just need to find the ones who's flaws we're willing to live with.

Thank you. It's great that everyone here is so passionate about audio (I am too!), but I think it's easy to forget that a large portion of people out there, even those who are willing to drop some cash on speakers, don't care about the specs or physics involved. For those folks they just want a system that sounds "good", which of course is highly subjective and depends upon a myriad of factors.

So my philosophy is to try and help people attain a satisfying experience in any way I can. Of course I hope that involves our speakers, but if the bottom line is that they aren't enjoying the sound then there really is no benefit to me to try and mislead them into thinking something else is the problem. It's not like I am going to refuse a return if someone calls me 32 days after receiving their order because they tried a couple of my suggestions out after they called me on the 29th day. That would just be asking for someone to get on a forum like this to talk about their bad experience.

At the end of the day audio and home theater should be fun and helping to create that experience truly is our ultimate goal here at Aperion.

It's more likely if we are talking about a HTIB from Samsung, Panasonic, Sony, Bose, but not likely if we are talking about a $500+ 7.1 AVR from Yamaha, Onkyo, Pioneer, Denon, etc.

But I have to admit I have a big mouth.

It is a matter of opinions, and I should not have said anything derogatory towards Aperion or anyone else. I apologize for my big mouth.

We can all differ in opinions and still get along.

Like I don't believe in all that "synergy" or amps/AVR sounding different.

And I roll my eyes when I see people say speaker "A" sounds better than all these $20K speakers.

Thanks for that, good to know we can still be friends!

For the record I don't really believe that any brand of amp has a particular sound, I just thinks specs can be tricky and that models that are rated the same don't necessarily offer the same level of performance for practical use.

 

[Nuance AH]

Maybe. Maybe not.

I've never listened to Wilson Audio before.

It applies if we are talking about B&W speakers.

It doesn't apply when we are talking about speakers that have been named "speakers of the year" by so many audiophiles and publications like Soundstage & Stereophile.

Oh, it apples to B&W too. In my experience, Wilson is as bad, if not worse.

Stereophile and Soundstage? You mean the magazines biased by advertising dollars? LOL - good one buddy. I assume you were kidding, but if not I am sorry I laughed at your comment. I meant no offense.

For the record I don't really believe that any brand of amp has a particular sound, I just thinks specs can be tricky and that models that are rated the same don't necessarily offer the same level of performance for practical use.

Aint that the truth!

 

[cschang]

Stereophile and Soundstage? You mean the magazines biased by advertising dollars? LOL - good one buddy. I assume you were kidding, but if not I am sorry I laughed at your comment. I meant no offense.

I actually wonder about Soundstage. There have been some "winners" that don't seem to advertise with their publications.

 

[Nuance AH]

I actually wonder about Soundstage. There have been some "winners" that don't seem to advertise with their publications.

Ditto. I don't bother reading their reviews, but they use the NRC anechoic chamber don't they? I basically use them for their measurements.

 

[zieglj01]

At the end of the day audio and home theater should be fun and helping to create that experience truly is our ultimate goal here at Aperion.

For the record I don't really believe that any brand of amp has a particular sound, I just thinks specs can be tricky and that models that are rated the same don't necessarily offer the same level of performance for practical use.

Thanks for being honest - The word I have heard on Aperion, is that they
really care about their customers.
I have owned many receivers, and I only hear a small difference in the
processing. And not enough, to even think about a debate. The biggest
differences that I do pick up, is in noise or distortion.
May Aperion have continued success, in your business and customer care.