Simaudio Moon CP-8 AV Processor: A Denon Receiver in Sim Clothing?

[RichB]

I view it a different way. As I said, reviewers don't want to be viewed as controversial. I have heard popular reviewers mention that they didn't like something and went to the manufacture asking if they wanted it published. I don't know how often that happens but I know that it has occurred.

Let's pick on Stereophile. Let's say I am the marketing director for So-and-So speakers. I call a reviewer at Stereophile to see if he would like to review by new product. The print reviewer doesn't give a rats-rear-end if I advertise or not. He explains to me that he has 8 items in the pipe-line and that it isn't happening for at least a year. But wait, I just wrote out a check for $10,000 an advertisement x 12 months. So I call the editor and ask for help. Pressure is applied to the reviewer and I butt in line. Now you see a review on page 20-25, and on page 26 you see an advertisement of that exact product.

The end result is the same: advertisers get great reviews. Not all reviewers are unethical. But I don't know which ones are which. Also, I think the better reviewers are careful as to which products they review. That way, they don't have to feel uncomfortable telling the supplier they don't like it.

There is nothing unethical about the advertiser including an ad in the same issue as a review.

I think you have to read between the lines sometimes. Criticisms are likely to be artfully phrased. For example, when reviewing an LCD display the statement might be "can't match the viewing angle of a Plasma display" as opposed to "After 50 degrees colors washed out". Don't expect the later. That does not make the review invalid or dishonest.

I put greater stock in reviews that include measurements like AH and HomeTheaterHifi.
Audio reviews with prose only usually correlate well with the price.

Also, some reviewers have developed relationships with manufacturers which may have an impact or predisposition. It's only human and reasonable, depending on the manufacturer and their product history.

- Rich

 

[fuzz092888]

Marantz Pure Direct, Direct, and Stereo modes are not indistinguishable.
If they were, that would make Pure Direct a marketing feature only.

- Rich

I view pure direct as a marketing feature. I can't hear any differences between pure direct and direct.

 

[RichB]

I view pure direct as a marketing feature. I can't hear any differences between pure direct and direct.

Are you using the dedicated 7.1 analog inputs?
Can you hear the difference between Stereo (with no processing enabled) and Direct/Pure Direct?

- Rich

 

[gene]

Marantz Pure Direct, Direct, and Stereo modes are not indistinguishable.
If they were, that would make Pure Direct a marketing feature only.

- Rich

With respect to every measurable parameter Direct Stereo and Pure Direct are identical. But, if you think you can hear a difference between the two than more power to you. I also use Pure Direct since it kills the front panel display and feels more audiophile to me, but I don't delude myself into believing it sounds different b/c to my ears it doesn't, at least on Denon upper echelon gear.

 

[fuzz092888]

Are you using the dedicated 7.1 analog inputs?
Can you hear the difference between Stereo (with no processing enabled) and Direct/Pure Direct?

- Rich

I've tried it using HDMI and dedicated analog inputs on two different units now (the Onkyo 3009 and the Marantz 8801) with 3 different pairs of speakers and heard zero difference between the two using music and movies.

I haven't done any listening tests between stereo and direct/pure direct since I use one direct/pure direct for stereo listening and stereo for 2.X listening when I want the subs engaged.

 

[RichB]

I've tried it using HDMI and dedicated analog inputs on two different units now (the Onkyo 3009 and the Marantz 8801) with 3 different pairs of speakers and heard zero difference between the two using music and movies.

I haven't done any listening tests between stereo and direct/pure direct since I use one direct/pure direct for stereo listening and stereo for 2.X listening when I want the subs engaged.

I have my Pronto setup to switch between HDMI, COAX, XLR analog, and 7.1 analog from the BDP-105.

I hear clear differences.
I have measured the 7.1 inputs 1 DB higher than the HDMI using the OnmiMics sweep tone. Heard and measured. I do not know what else to say.

- Rich

 

[RichB]

With respect to every measurable parameter Direct Stereo and Pure Direct are identical. But, if you think you can hear a difference between the two than more power to you. I also use Pure Direct since it kills the front panel display and feels more audiophile to me, but I don't delude myself into believing it sounds different b/c to my ears it doesn't, at least on Denon upper echelon gear.

Well, perhaps if you are on the east coast, I let you delude yourself too

Do you hear differences between Pure Direct and Stereo mode?
If so, then additional processing does have an impact.

I do not believe turning off displays affects the sound even though you can read about it in the manual

- Rich

 

[fuzz092888]

I have my Pronto setup to switch between HDMI, COAX, XLR analog, and 7.1 analog from the BDP-105.

I hear clear differences.
I have measured the 7.1 inputs 1 DB higher than the HDMI using the OnmiMics sweep tone. Heard and measured. I do not know what else to say.

- Rich

If it's louder that could be the differences you hear. Even differences of 1db can cause a person to hear "differences" that aren't necessarily there.

 

[RichB]

If it's louder that could be the differences you hear. Even differences of 1db can cause a person to hear "differences" that aren't necessarily there.

Sure, I measured the volume with sweeps and adjusted the levels before comparing HDMI and 7.1 analog inputs. The balance of the sound is different.

Perhaps no difference is expected between the Oppo and AV8801 DACs and analog sections.

I am fairly certain that the AV8801 XLR's are A/D converted because LFE+Main is supported. The BDP-105 XLRs sound very different in my system than the HDMI.

COAX and HDMI are also sound different. The COAX is brighter and the HDMI more laid back. They use clock handling as described by Jason Liao.

I have no experience with the AVP so I cannot speak to its sound. My only point is that clocking and processing the signal in the digital domain can effect sound quality.

At least in the AV8801, I think there is room for improvement.
I suppose it is unusual for the owner of a product to find room for improvement.
That usually is discovered after the upgrade.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If it's louder that could be the differences you hear. Even differences of 1db can cause a person to hear "differences" that aren't necessarily there.

In my experience the sound level is the only thing that is different among the inputs.

 

[RichB]

In my experience the sound level is the only thing that is different among the inputs.

Have you setup a remote for fast switching?

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Have you setup a remote for fast switching?

- Rich

I can switch using my iPad's Denon Remote app.

 

[RichB]

I can switch using my iPad's Denon Remote app.

Which inputs have you compared in Pure Direct mode and what is your source?

- Rich

 

[surveyor]

In my experience the sound level is the only thing that is different among the inputs.

I have the same experience with my lesser than, but beginning higher echelon AVR-4520ci!

 

[gene]

I have my Pronto setup to switch between HDMI, COAX, XLR analog, and 7.1 analog from the BDP-105.

I hear clear differences.
I have measured the 7.1 inputs 1 DB higher than the HDMI using the OnmiMics sweep tone. Heard and measured. I do not know what else to say.

- Rich

Check your settings on your processor. Either you have an input level set differently between input types or you have DSP bass management engaged on the analog inputs.

i haven't measured the Marantz but there is NO difference between direct stereo and pure direct on Denon AVP.

 

[RichB]

Check your settings on your processor. Either you have an input level set differently between input types or you have DSP bass management engaged on the analog inputs.

i haven't measured the Marantz but there is NO difference between direct stereo and pure direct on Denon AVP.

Everything is flat, all speakers are large, Audyssey is disabled.
The Marantz does not have A/D converters on the 7.1 analog inputs.
The only options are Pure Direct and Direct and the sound change is present.

If I sit along the wall, it is very difficult to hear.
However, if I 7 feet centered between each speaker (there is over 20 feet of open space to the rear), the sound difference is easily discern.

At least with the Marantz, the distinction between Pure Direct and Direct is real and not just marketing.

For todays listening, I used HD Tracks Melody Gardot The Absence.
This is an excellent album and well recorded.

The signal path:

J River ->
WASAPI Event driven 24 Bit (unpadded) ->
BDP-105 USB DAC Single Ended dedicated FL outputs ->
Marantz 7.1 Analog inputs ->
Parasound A51 (XLR) ->
Revel Salons

The BDP-105 USB input bypasses all processing by the player.


- Rich

 

[surveyor]

Is Marantz going to make an equivalent ie (60 lb.) AVP like the -A1HDCI?

Don't believe everything you hear on the forum. Marantz wouldn't be coming out with an AVP caliber product in the near future if that were true.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Which inputs have you compared in Pure Direct mode and what is your source?

- Rich

HDMI, Optical, Analog.

Denon DVD-3800BDCI.

Subjective comparison.

 

[PENG]

Is Marantz going to make an equivalent ie (60 lb.) AVP like the -A1HDCI?

I didn't realize the AIHD weighs that much!

In recent years, D&M somehow have found ways to stay fit. That is, since the 5805 and 4806, their AVR has managed to say below 40 lbs. The minor exceptions are th 4810 and 4308 that weighs just a little over 40 lbs but not near the 50 mark that the 4806 did. Even at such light(er) weights, like 10 lbs less than Onkyo and NAD's flag ships, they consistently tested equal or better than the Onkyo/NAD on the benches base on HTM, HCC and another UK site in ACD, contiunous as well as dynamic outputs, and have lower THD/IMD.

I can only think of their different heat sinking methodology, chassis design/material, and custom designed transformers as the key factors but would hope insider such as Gene, or dealers with insider connections such as AV_Nuts to shed lights on this. Until then, every now and then someone would pop up and make seemingly convincing (still just assumptions) statements that the heavier weight NAD/Onkyo are automatically and always more powerful than the D&M's counterparts regardless of the published specs.

 

[RichB]

HDMI, Optical, Analog.

Denon DVD-3800BDCI.

Subjective comparison.

The Denon app works with the Marantz but I cannot figure out how to do fast switching between HDMI, COAX, and Analog. I have not tested optical.
I would be hard pressed to pinpoint the differences without that capability.
There are remote codes that can be programmed into a remote to quickly switch without much delay (no HMDI handshakes).


- Rich