Simaudio Moon CP-8 AV Processor: A Denon Receiver in Sim Clothing?

[AV_Nut]

I am not a fan of Onkyo's pre-amplification section. IMHO, they lack dynamics (like putting thin blankets over your speakers). I think they make solid amplification with their receivers. They also make incredible tuners. Larry at Magnum Dynalab respects them. The NAD's (again IMHO) are buggy. So they don't cut the mustard.

Re: the weight difference, my best guess the biggest difference must be in the power supply or heatsinks. When you make things compact, you then need to add metal for heat sinks. Sherbourn's old designs come to mind (7x200 monoblocks). On of favorite amps of all times was the Lexicon LX series (Crown based and voiced by Bart Lopiccolo).. That was supposedly 200 watts x 7 yet it weighed under 60 pounds. I loved the sound of that amp. Yet the Sherbourn was 40 pounds more and fell short in comparison to the very best.

There are the laws-of-physics going on. You cannot take a prepro weighing in at 26 pounds and then add 125watt x 7 and call it a receiver for 34 pounds total (or 8 pounds for the amp section).

They WILL still sound fantastic assuming you have an 8 ohm stable load. But of course there is a compromise. But adding 10 pounds more for a big toroidal isn't a reason to buy an Onkyo.

 

[fuzz092888]

Onkyo's may have the best specs but I will avoid them like the plague based on their very poor post sales customer service and poor quality control. Hopefully, the new line was engineered with proper thermal dissipation in mind, something that was sadly lacking in their other models.

When I had my 3009, I only had good CS experiences. The 3009 ran very hot, but not a lot hotter than the 8801, at least as far as I can tell to the touch. I'll have to get the thermometer out to see what the 8801 gets to after a few movies.

 

[fuzz092888]

There are the laws-of-physics going on. You cannot take a prepro weighing in at 26 pounds and then add 125watt x 7 and call it a receiver for 34 pounds total (or 8 pounds for the amp section).

With the way nanotech and high efficiency amplifiers are progressing, that's not out of the question for the future.

 

[gene]

Much of the preamp section weight loss over the years have been combined chips with more features. So instead of buying 8 total DAC's, now you have an 8 DAC chip (all in one). DSP's have more MIPS so they don't need to use as many etc. They also shed legacy technology (SVIDEO etc).

The chip technology has NOTHING to do with the weight of the product. Multi DAC chips have been around a very long time and the MIPS of the DSPs used on the AVP vs the 8801 are pretty similar. Not a lot has evolved in this aspect.

The reason the AVP weighs a lot more than the 8801 is the construction method, size of the power supply and output topology of the AVP. The analog preamp section of the AVP is far superior to the 8801 . As you said, it's overdesigned and there is NOTHING wrong with that.

There is also nothing wrong with doing modular card design. It made for a fairly easy upgrade path for the AVP to 3D. I spoke with the top certified tech that upgrades for Denon and other brands and he not only showed me the schematics but also told me he's never worked on a better engineered product than the AVP. I have high hopes that Marantz works very closely with the Denon engineers on their new pre/pro to preserve everything that is great about the AVP but with latest gen features that consumers want.

PS. A company like Lexicon / Levinson would never design a pre/pro of this caliber. They are too busy repackaging other people's gear in fancier chassis

 

[3db]

PS. A company like Lexicon / Levinson would never design a pre/pro of this caliber. They are too busy repackaging other people's gear in fancier chassis

What did Levinson repackage? I missed that one.

 

[gene]

What did Levinson repackage? I missed that one.

Most of their amps are ATI clones.

 

[AV_Nut]

The chip technology has NOTHING to do with the weight of the product. Multi DAC chips have been around a very long time and the MIPS of the DSPs used on the AVP vs the 8801 are pretty similar. Not a lot has evolved in this aspect.

The reason the AVP weighs a lot more than the 8801 is the construction method, size of the power supply and output topology of the AVP. The analog preamp section of the AVP is far superior to the 8801 . As you said, it's overdesigned and there is NOTHING wrong with that.

There is also nothing wrong with doing modular card design. It made for a fairly easy upgrade path for the AVP to 3D. I spoke with the top certified tech that upgrades for Denon and other brands and he not only showed me the schematics but also told me he's never worked on a better engineered product than the AVP. I have high hopes that Marantz works very closely with the Denon engineers on their new pre/pro to preserve everything that is great about the AVP but with latest gen features that consumers want.

PS. A company like Lexicon / Levinson would never design a pre/pro of this caliber. They are too busy repackaging other people's gear in fancier chassis

I'm talking about the evolution of receivers and prepros. Everything I mentioned is true. Legacy connections are being dropped, preouts are being dropped, more features are being combined inside of 1 chip, etc. To continue, mutilevel board are more compact, surface mount semiconductor packaging takes up less real estate, etc. I am only after sonic performance. Analogy: I don't want a heavy cell phone just because it is heavy.

The card slot approach makes it more modular and more upgradeable. That will add a good deal of weight too. As I said, it's like a laptop versus a tower. The differential DAC board of the AVP adds weight too. But then again, how many people hear the difference between true balanced versus single ended? Remember, the "pure direct" measures better as well. How many people here were commenting about how they could not hear any differences between these two?

Re: upgradeability. Can we all agree this has been a disaster? The AVP, B&K, and Lexicon did a better than average job. Integra Research==letter grade F! Trivia: How many people actually wrote out a check for an upgrade at B&K? According to B&K (in the REF50S2 era), it was 5%. 95% of all people who bought an upgradeable product actually wrote out the check. As for the AVP. I would have to get a more accurate count but I am guessing 1 out of 10. All kinds of people bought my traded in B&K because of upgradeablilty. If the original buyer didn't do it, how many used buyers wrote out the check?

No. There is nothing wrong with over engineering. But over engineering helps market a product just like an "upgradeable design" does.

Re: Lexicon. They were in a deep development cycle for a new prepro. Target price $8K, I mean $12K, I mean $18K. Then the project was dropped. Buy the time they got 1/2 way though the design, the industry already had changed.

 

[AV_Nut]

Most of their amps are ATI clones.

ATI builds for tons of companies. I have not followed it. Are you saying they didn't design the amps themselves but instead used an ATI designed amp and re-badged it? If I designed an amplifier, I could hire ATI to build it as a contract manufacture. The reason I ask is ATI offers no big monoblock amps nor any stereo preamps. I am not doubting you but asking for clarification.

 

[gene]

I'm talking about the evolution of receivers and prepros. Everything I mentioned is true. Legacy connections are being dropped, preouts are being dropped, more features are being combined inside of 1 chip, etc. To continue, mutilevel board are more compact, surface mount semiconductor packaging takes up less real estate, etc. I am only after sonic performance. Analogy: I don't want a heavy cell phone just because it is heavy.

The card slot approach makes it more modular and more upgradeable. That will add a good deal of weight too. As I said, it's like a laptop versus a tower. The differential DAC board of the AVP adds weight too. But then again, how many people hear the difference between true balanced versus single ended? Remember, the "pure direct" measures better as well. How many people here were commenting about how they could not hear any differences between these two?

Nobody uses a DAC that only has one channel/chip anymore. Multi-ch dac's have been the mainstay for years. While the AVP may have a few more chips than the 8801 b/c they parallel stack to reduce noise/distortion, the added weight gain is ounces not pounds.

The evolution of chips between the AVP to 8801 is very minor and has very little to do with the weight difference as I mentioned before.

The AVP has a massive power supply for a preamp. The bulk of the added weight is in that and the more robust chassis, not a few DSP chips.

 

[gene]

ATI builds for tons of companies. I have not followed it. Are you saying they didn't design the amps themselves but instead used an ATI designed amp and re-badged it? If I designed an amplifier, I could hire ATI to build it as a contract manufacture. The reason I ask is ATI offers no big monoblock amps nor any stereo preamps. I am not doubting you but asking for clarification.

I haven't looked at the differences very closely between Levinson and ATI stock amps. Another forum member here has and maybe he will chime in. I would suspect Lexicon took a base ATI design and asked them to make a few upgrades to fit their needs. I don't think the top end Levinson is an ATI design however but I can be mistaken.

 

[RichB]

When I had my 3009, I only had good CS experiences. The 3009 ran very hot, but not a lot hotter than the 8801, at least as far as I can tell to the touch. I'll have to get the thermometer out to see what the 8801 gets to after a few movies.

The AV8801 measured 129 degrees in the center back (using an infrared thermometer) after hours of use.
It sits on an open shelf above the A51 which raises the ambient temperature to about 95 degrees.
I attached a 5 volt Gelid fan to the rear USB port that blows from back to front and this reduced the temperature to below 115 degrees.

- Rich

 

[RichB]

PS. A company like Lexicon / Levinson would never design a pre/pro of this caliber. They are too busy repackaging other people's gear in fancier chassis

That does not bother me, but the price increase is an issue
I would have gladly paid ATI $200 for an upgrade to a nicer faceplate and buttons.

- Rich

 

[AV_Nut]

I haven't looked at the differences very closely between Levinson and ATI stock amps.

Then I certainly would not be comfortable about saying something like this on hearsay:

Most of their amps are ATI clones.

If I didn't challenge it, people would assumed you would have done your due diligence and parrot it to others.

I haven't looked at the differences very closely between Levinson and ATI stock amps. Another forum member here has and maybe he will chime in. I would suspect Lexicon took a base ATI design and asked them to make a few upgrades to fit their needs. I don't think the top end Levinson is an ATI design however but I can be mistaken.

It is highly probable that the Lex amp and the big ATI and nearly identical. They look so inside the chassis. Their original amps were Bryston's (2K more and 1/4 the warranty). Cut paste, repeat on their RT-10 (Marantz 8400), RT-20 (Marantz 9200), and their Oppo clone and ATI (probable) clone.

Back in the day when I bought $400K of Lexicon prepro's a year, I visited their facility. They had a small fleet of engineers. They were pioneers in the industry. 1st touch pad remote (inspired by Steve Raitt; Bonnie's brother and MN former installer of the Stars).RTI programmers were born from that idea. Dr. David Griesinger (father of Logic 7) was at their designing helm. See http://www.davidgriesinger.com/ . They were the 1st to get DD, DTS (if memory serves me), variable crossovers, etc. They were way ahead of the curve for room correction and user friendly GUI.

 

[fuzz092888]

The Onkyo used to have an internal temp of 50-60C depending on how hard it was being run and I believe the exterior temp used to be ~145F. I'll have to look to see if the 8801 has a button combo to see what internal temperatures it is reading to compare to the Onkyo's self readings.

The AV8801 measured 129 degrees in the center back (using an infrared thermometer) after hours of use.
It sits on an open shelf above the A51 which raises the ambient temperature to about 95 degrees.
I attached a 5 volt Gelid fan to the rear USB port that blows from back to front and this reduced the temperature to below 115 degrees.

- Rich

 

[Irvrobinson]

I haven't looked at the differences very closely between Levinson and ATI stock amps. Another forum member here has and maybe he will chime in. I would suspect Lexicon took a base ATI design and asked them to make a few upgrades to fit their needs. I don't think the top end Levinson is an ATI design however but I can be mistaken.

The 53 and the 532 look like full-custom Levinson designs, as they were in the Madrigal days, and they look nothing like any ATI amp, but I have no idea who actually builds them. The 531H-535H look like derivations of the ATI AT2000 architecture, though the boards look different. It's not a simple rebadging, to answer AV_Nut.

 

[PENG]

When I had my 3009, I only had good CS experiences. The 3009 ran very hot, but not a lot hotter than the 8801, at least as far as I can tell to the touch. I'll have to get the thermometer out to see what the 8801 gets to after a few movies.

When I have the 8801 on the top shelf with 4.75" space on top it ran warm, not hot, about low to mid 40's deg C. Then I have to relocate it to the lower shelf with only 1.75" space and then I have no choice but to add 2 little 12V PC fans. With the fans on the lowest speed the 8801 never run warmer than 33 to 37 deg C.

Today's higher end AVRs such as the 3009 are feature packed with large power supplies but much less heat sinks than separate power amps, like AV_nut said the law of physics tells us they bound to run hot as they just don't have enough heat sinks to dissipate the heat. No matter what the dealers may tell us, they all can use one large or two small PC fans, unless the unit comes with them already.

 

[fuzz092888]

I agree. I used to have a 200mm fan on top of the Onkyo which brought the internal operating temp down to 40-50C, which was pretty good. I have yet to get the fan set up on top of the 8801, but I'll probably do it now that I have a few days off for Thanksgiving.

When I have the 8801 on the top shelf with 4.75" space on top it ran warm, not hot, about low to mid 40's deg C. Then I have to relocate it to the lower shelf with only 1.75" space and then I have no choice but to add 2 little 12V PC fans. With the fans on the lowest speed the 8801 never run warmer than 33 to 37 deg C.

Today's higher end AVRs such as the 3009 are feature packed with large power supplies but much less heat sinks than separate power amps, like AV_nut said the law of physics tells us they bound to run hot as they just don't have enough heat sinks to dissipate the heat. No matter what the dealers may tell us, they all can use one large or two small PC fans, unless the unit comes with them already.

 

[PENG]

I agree. I used to have a 200mm fan on top of the Onkyo which brought the internal operating temp down to 40-50C, which was pretty good. I have yet to get the fan set up on top of the 8801, but I'll probably do it now that I have a few days off for Thanksgiving.

That would be a good investment. Those 12V fans would run quietly at high enough speed with half the voltage. The thing should last for a long time even at 50C operating temperature but Cooler temperature invariably means extended trouble free life.

 

[fuzz092888]

That would be a good investment. Those 12V fans would run quietly at high enough speed with half the voltage. The thing should last for a long time even at 50C operating temperature but Cooler temperature invariably means extended trouble free life.

That's one thing I love about the 200mm fans is that they move a lot more air with fewer revolutions. Plus I hook it into a separate fan controller to have total control over the speed.

 

[RichB]

When I have the 8801 on the top shelf with 4.75" space on top it ran warm, not hot, about low to mid 40's deg C. Then I have to relocate it to the lower shelf with only 1.75" space and then I have no choice but to add 2 little 12V PC fans. With the fans on the lowest speed the 8801 never run warmer than 33 to 37 deg C.

Today's higher end AVRs such as the 3009 are feature packed with large power supplies but much less heat sinks than separate power amps, like AV_nut said the law of physics tells us they bound to run hot as they just don't have enough heat sinks to dissipate the heat. No matter what the dealers may tell us, they all can use one large or two small PC fans, unless the unit comes with them already.

The new Yamaha AVENTAGE CX-A5000 reportedly runs cool.
I expect that there are newer video processing chips that run much cooler.

- Rich