Trained Audiophiles Fooled by a Blind Listening Test?

[mtrycrafts]

Bah, I would have known. I get all my speaker cables made by a guy in Lichtenstein that carves each coathanger out of a single girder. He's the best. He tests each one for openness, airiness, presence, depth, warmth, coolth, subsonic flagellation and supersonic boom then rates their je ne sais quoi on a scale of 1 to 10.

I only buy the 10s.

Does he test for microdynamics?

 

[Hobbit]

People can hear the sound without listening- hearing is just the physical reaction to the sound and listening means that the person is trying to find details and differences in the sound. Most people hear music and sounds, fewer can identify what they're hearing.

Let's use musical instruments as an example- some can identify the maker, era of manufacture and other details, whereas others can identify none of these details. A Stradivarius violin was stolen from a musician who was using it on loan and after it was recovered from the thief, the musician played it for the news crew who was reporting on it- the sound was incredible even using a news camera's mic, being recorded and broadcast but others may have just said "That's a violin". Acoustic guitar is another example where the differences aren't necessarily subtle- listen to Gibson, Martin and Taylor Dreadnaught guitars and if no difference is noticed, the person hearing them didn't listen. YouTube has a video of a pianist playing instruments ranging in price from $1 to $3 million, asking if differences can be heard.

The second video compares cheap vs expensive classical guitars-

Playing music and musical instruments is very interesting. As a guitar player, we often say your sound comes from your fingers (and heart). Guthrie Govan mentioned playing with Robin Ford. They gave Robin a Les Paul and plugged him into a Fender Twin. Low and behold, it still sounded like Robin Ford who generally plays a Tele through Dumble. Tonally such a different setup. Petrucci tells a similar story trading guitars and setups with Satriani. They both sounded the way you would expect them to sound on the others setup. Which of course doesn't mean we don't gravitate towards particular instrument and amps sounds.

I have a modeler effects pedal that can go straight to a PA system and a modeler amp. When you're playing with all the setting available your ears can go numb. Every tweak sounds better! Then the next day you call up that patch you made and go, "what was I thinking?!"

Conversely, there's a story where Paul Reed Smith (PRS) talks about bringing violin makers to a lumber yard. According to the story, they all chose wood from the same tree(!) by how it resonates when tapped. There's also the legend of the tonewood tree from rainforest jungle of Chiquibul. A lot of very expensive guitars were made from it.

 

[highfigh]

Well, something had to be setup to show some different "signal or LED" had been triggered. IMO, they didn't have to be blindfolded in the situation reported.

If they can't see the light change because they were blindfolded, they still can't know IF something else changed- that's the point of blind testing. They may hear an interruption in the sound, but that doesn't mean anything changed. A test where nobody knows if changes are occurring is the most valid because the person switching something doesn't know either and they can't impart any bias. If someone believes that something has changed, they'll make comparisons that may/may not be valid but if they don't know, they can judge the products, based on performance and not some pre-conceived notion.

I have found that by not caring if something is better than another in a listening test, I'm free to make a better choice.

 

[highfigh]

Playing music and musical instruments is very interesting. As a guitar player, we often say your sound comes from your fingers (and heart). Guthrie Govan mentioned playing with Robin Ford. They gave Robin a Les Paul and plugged him into a Fender Twin. Low and behold, it still sounded like Robin Ford who generally plays a Tele through Dumble. Tonally such a different setup. Petrucci tells a similar story trading guitars and setups with Satriani. They both sounded the way you would expect them to sound on the others setup. Which of course doesn't mean we don't gravitate towards particular instrument and amps sounds.

I have a modeler effects pedal that can go straight to a PA system and a modeler amp. When you're playing with all the setting available your ears can go numb. Every tweak sounds better! Then the next day you call up that patch you made and go, "what was I thinking?!"

Conversely, there's a story where Paul Reed Smith (PRS) talks about bringing violin makers to a lumber yard. According to the story, they all chose wood from the same tree(!) by how it resonates when tapped. There's also the legend of the tonewood tree from rainforest jungle of Chiquibul. A lot of very expensive guitars were made from it.

Most touring players use a variety of amplifiers, depending on where they're playing because it's not always practical to take heavy amplifiers to other countries. I know someone who has played with Guthrie Govan and Robben Ford in several places and he didn't necessarily use the same amps, but he's another one who sounds like himself and IMO, it's because he/they know how to get 'their' sound from a variety of equipment. Ford doesn't always use a Dumble- I have seen videos of him using Twins and other models.

As far as tonewood, I'm in the camp of believing that it makes a difference. Listen to an electric guitar played without amplification and the same models will sound similar, but different. Played with amplification, they still sound different, even if the same pickups are used because the strings don't vibrate the same when different woods are used and there are too many variables to definitively say that they're different or the same. However, by eliminating the variable of how the string is picked or plucked, the waveforms can be compared.

Even in acoustic guitars, the various lumber species sound different but then, trees aren't consistent. Lumber species have similarities, so they're used for specific purposes but I'm seeing a lot more variety than I did when I worked at a music store- at that time, it was acoustic guitars with Brazilian/Indian Rosewood, Mahogany, Maple bodies with Sitka or Adirondac Spruce, Mahogany, Cedar and a few other species for tops. Electrics were more varied. Each has its own sound.

 

[Nondemo01]

Most touring players use a variety of amplifiers, depending on where they're playing because it's not always practical to take heavy amplifiers to other countries. I know someone who has played with Guthrie Govan and Robben Ford in several places and he didn't necessarily use the same amps, but he's another one who sounds like himself and IMO, it's because he/they know how to get 'their' sound from a variety of equipment. Ford doesn't always use a Dumble- I have seen videos of him using Twins and other models.

As far as tonewood, I'm in the camp of believing that it makes a difference. Listen to an electric guitar played without amplification and the same models will sound similar, but different. Played with amplification, they still sound different, even if the same pickups are used because the strings don't vibrate the same when different woods are used and there are too many variables to definitively say that they're different or the same. However, by eliminating the variable of how the string is picked or plucked, the waveforms can be compared.

Even in acoustic guitars, the various lumber species sound different but then, trees aren't consistent. Lumber species have similarities, so they're used for specific purposes but I'm seeing a lot more variety than I did when I worked at a music store- at that time, it was acoustic guitars with Brazilian/Indian Rosewood, Mahogany, Maple bodies with Sitka or Adirondac Spruce, Mahogany, Cedar and a few other species for tops. Electrics were more varied. Each has its own sound.

Drums and drummers are the same. I remember a clinic where I watched Vinnie Colaiuta play the same Yamaha kit that Dave Weckl played. (Back when both were Yamaha endorsers.) I swear, you would have thought they were on completely different stages. I said it on another post but I've been in studio with pro guitar players who would install toggle switches in guitars that do NOTHING. Then, when an artist says they don't "like" a sound or wants something "different" and another 5-10 takes, the player would flip the switch in dramatic fashion. The artist would scream: "YES! PERFECT!". Lol. They don't realize that we saved them $$$ and time but it had to get done for our sanity...

 

[highfigh]

Drums and drummers are the same. I remember a clinic where I watched Vinnie Colaiuta play the same Yamaha kit that Dave Weckl played. (Back when both were Yamaha endorsers.) I swear, you would have thought they were on completely different stages. I said it on another post but I've been in studio with pro guitar players who would install toggle switches in guitars that do NOTHING. Then, when an artist says they don't "like" a sound or wants something "different" and another 5-10 takes, the player would flip the switch in dramatic fashion. The artist would scream: "YES! PERFECT!". Lol. They don't realize that we saved them $$$ and time but it had to get done for our sanity...

The guy I mentioned who has played with Robben Ford & Guthrie Govan is local and at one gig in '95, Buddy Miles showed up and after the set was over, it was agreed that he would sit in. There was no similarity to Greg's drummer to Miles, other than the drums. Nobody would think only one drummer had played that night.

Tommy Tedesco was one of The Wrecking Crew members and Leland Sklar has talked about a session where Tedesco was playing a part that really didn't work for the producer, who asked if he could play it on a Classical guitar, rather than steel stringed acoustic. Then, he asked if it could be played on something like a Tiple or Balalaika. Each time, Tedesco would bend over so the producer couldn't see him and each time, he came up with the same instrument. The part he was to play wasn't set, just to be improvised, so he asked about the highest and lowest notes. After being told that it was about one octave, he again came up with his Mandolin and 'nailed' the part by playing in a different register.

Sometimes, it's the effects that get the results. Same local guitarist I mentioned above used to do a lot of sessions in Chicago and one time, the producer asked for a sound 'like syrup dripping over the edge of pancakes'. Greg said "I think I have something for that" and nailed it.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Drums and drummers are the same. I remember a clinic where I watched Vinnie Colaiuta play the same Yamaha kit that Dave Weckl played. (Back when both were Yamaha endorsers.) I swear, you would have thought they were on completely different stages. I said it on another post but I've been in studio with pro guitar players who would install toggle switches in guitars that do NOTHING. Then, when an artist says they don't "like" a sound or wants something "different" and another 5-10 takes, the player would flip the switch in dramatic fashion. The artist would scream: "YES! PERFECT!". Lol. They don't realize that we saved them $$$ and time but it had to get done for our sanity...

This is the same with conductors:
"The Grass is Always Greener in the Outtakes", Gould, Glenn, High Fidelity, Aug 75, pg 54-59.

Oldies but goodies.
Can't tell apart.

 

[Nondemo01]

The guy I mentioned who has played with Robben Ford & Guthrie Govan is local and at one gig in '95, Buddy Miles showed up and after the set was over, it was agreed that he would sit in. There was no similarity to Greg's drummer to Miles, other than the drums. Nobody would think only one drummer had played that night.

Tommy Tedesco was one of The Wrecking Crew members and Leland Sklar has talked about a session where Tedesco was playing a part that really didn't work for the producer, who asked if he could play it on a Classical guitar, rather than steel stringed acoustic. Then, he asked if it could be played on something like a Tiple or Balalaika. Each time, Tedesco would bend over so the producer couldn't see him and each time, he came up with the same instrument. The part he was to play wasn't set, just to be improvised, so he asked about the highest and lowest notes. After being told that it was about one octave, he again came up with his Mandolin and 'nailed' the part by playing in a different register.

Sometimes, it's the effects that get the results. Same local guitarist I mentioned above used to do a lot of sessions in Chicago and one time, the producer asked for a sound 'like syrup dripping over the edge of pancakes'. Greg said "I think I have something for that" and nailed it.

The Wrecking Crew days! Man, those cats could PLAY! I love Rick Beato's YouTube channel interviews with these legends of music. (And his Top 10 reviews are hilarious!) Nowadays, producers fix it in ProTools.
Going back to speakers, I'm surprised at the adjectives thrown around about a speaker. One persons "air" or "sparkles" is another persons "bright" or "harsh". I wish people could see what we mix on in studio or when we take a file to our car to "check the kick". Lol.

 

[MrBoat]

There's reasons why "trained audiophiles" would need to belong to an exclusive club.

I still get fooled by my own mishaps. Last night, I was listening to a song and went to find a link to it online and accidentally hit the play button so I had a mismatched blend of both songs. In the middle of the drum solo on both that I thought, damn, he's really letting that double kick drum rip. I also remember thinking it was a bit much. Then I had to laugh at myself for being so retarded even with 50 years at this when the next song started on the one I was meaning to listen to.

 

[highfigh]

The Wrecking Crew days! Man, those cats could PLAY! I love Rick Beato's YouTube channel interviews with these legends of music. (And his Top 10 reviews are hilarious!) Nowadays, producers fix it in ProTools.
Going back to speakers, I'm surprised at the adjectives thrown around about a speaker. One persons "air" or "sparkles" is another persons "bright" or "harsh". I wish people could see what we mix on in studio or when we take a file to our car to "check the kick". Lol.

ProTools can't make people play the way they did and create great songs out of simple ideas. It's great for compiling and tweaking, but if the playing isn't there, it's just heaping notes on top of each other.

If you think those adjectives are bad, go to guitar/amp forums and check out the crap they use to describe the sound- 'organic', 'woody', 'bell-like', 'swirling'.....it's ridiculous.

 

[jinjuku]

They should have been blindfolded, too. Knowing that something has changed, even if it's only the LED color, results in bias.

The LED was the control, the audience was the variable. They tweaked the control to see if they could illicit a response from the variable. They did.

The LED was the entire point behind the test.

 

[ryanosaur]

The LED was the control, the audience was the variable. They tweaked the control to see if they could illicit a response from the variable. They did.

The LED was the entire point behind the test.

This!

 

[lejack]

Cool, but none of the stuff in the article is anything newsworthy. It's been known for ages.

p.s: Also see: Betteridge's law of headlines

But it needs to be repeated!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Drums and drummers are the same. I remember a clinic where I watched Vinnie Colaiuta play the same Yamaha kit that Dave Weckl played. (Back when both were Yamaha endorsers.) I swear, you would have thought they were on completely different stages.

That must’ve been an amazing clinic.

 

[jeffca]

AudioScienceReview.com does a fantastic job at reviewing equipment. Some of the more interesting reviews have been scientific reviews of cables and power conditioners.

No listening was done. The reviewer would just run equipment through his analyzer with and without the power cords or conditioners being used. I read about a half dozen of these reviews and the bottom line was they didn’t do anything to the sound of the equipment. In some cases, they made the performance of the equipment being tested worse. Of course, it wasn’t by much… maybe a couple of decibels.

The bottom line is this: if your equipment needs a power conditioner or cable to sound its best, there is something seriously wrong with your equipment. The only use that I can find for a power conditioner is to protect the equipment from lightning strikes. As to power cables, the only thing you should be looking for is a cable that will not induce noise into audio cables. That’s it.

 

[PENG]

This is similar to Peter Walker's double blind trial to test whether the Audiophools could detect the difference between a solid state and tube amp. They claimed solid state amps were markedly inferior. Not only could they not distinguish between the tube and solid state amps, but Peter had nautily included an amp to which he had added 2% THD. They could not achieve statistical significance between any of the sources. The "conbecenti" never forgave him!

I didn't know that, no wonder he said he would design his amps without doing any listening tests, but would only
do so in the end just to know if there was anything seriously wrong.

 

[highfigh]

The LED was the control, the audience was the variable. They tweaked the control to see if they could illicit a response from the variable. They did.

The LED was the entire point behind the test.

People want to think they're good at being tested, but there they were- fooled by lights. They ought to try this with someone using a big wall-mounted knife switch, like the one in Frankenstein movies when they animate the monster.

 

[highfigh]

AudioScienceReview.com does a fantastic job at reviewing equipment. Some of the more interesting reviews have been scientific reviews of cables and power conditioners.

No listening was done. The reviewer would just run equipment through his analyzer with and without the power cords or conditioners being used. I read about a half dozen of these reviews and the bottom line was they didn’t do anything to the sound of the equipment. In some cases, they made the performance of the equipment being tested worse. Of course, it wasn’t by much… maybe a couple of decibels.

The bottom line is this: if your equipment needs a power conditioner or cable to sound its best, there is something seriously wrong with your equipment. The only use that I can find for a power conditioner is to protect the equipment from lightning strikes. As to power cables, the only thing you should be looking for is a cable that will not induce noise into audio cables. That’s it.

The terms for these devices are misunderstood and misused by too many people, very often in public online places like FaceBook. I have been 'shouted down' when I explain what most of them do and at times, someone says they don't like a brand because of the lack of space for wall warts (actually saw that last week).

 

[Verdinut]

That reminds me of A/V shows where loudspeakers of various brands are demonstrated in separated rooms. Of course, the difference in performance of the various speakers are obvious as compared with electronics operated within their limits. But most of us end off having a preference for only a few of the speaker brands among the totality of them.

 

[highfigh]

That reminds me of A/V shows where loudspeakers of various brands are demonstrated in separated rooms. Of course, the difference in performance of the various speakers are obvious as compared with electronics operated within their limits. But most of us end off having a preference for only a few of the speaker brands among the totality of them.

Are those the shows where everyone is cranking their equipment, to make sure EVERYONE on the planet can hear them? Yeah, I remember going to CES and hating it by the end of the day.