time to UPGRADE

[ahblaza]

I heard Audioholics will be reviewing/ measuring the Funk 18.0 subs, so we will see how it compares to other subs.

I recently sold my dual Rythmik D15SE, which I thought was awesome, but I think my dual Funk is even more awesome.

That's expected since the Rythmik retailed $1K and the Funk retailed $3K.

Get out of here, dual Funks more awesome

 

[ahblaza]

You have a projector set up right? It would be in my dream to be able to have 3 front towers, but with a 50" plasma sitting on my an entertainment cabinet that is not possible.

No my friend, I don't have a projector yet, but I have a large room and a friend who is a contractor, he mounted my 65" plasma a few inches above the center tower with a nice downward tilt so I don't have to kink my neck to view the TV, it took a few days to get used to, so now know I don't even realize that it is above the equipment rack. Looks appealing also, and man what a front stage presence. I thought ADTG was crazy ( I still do ) for suggesting three identical towers upfront, if you can do it, I suggest to go for it. The XPA-3 is playing nice with them.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

No my friend, I don't have a projector yet, but I have a large room and a friend who is a contractor, he mounted my 65" plasma a few inches above the center tower with a nice downward tilt so I don't have to kink my neck to view the TV, it took a few days to get used to, so now know I don't even realize that it is above the equipment rack. Looks appealing also, and man what a front stage presence. I thought ADTG was crazy ( I still do ) for suggesting three identical towers upfront, if you can do it, I suggest to go for it. The XPA-3 is playing nice with them.

Crazy?

I want 5 x Salon2 towers or 5 x 802D2 towers all around!

BTW, I actually lie down on my lounger when watching movies or listening to music in my HT room. Very comfy lying down (instead of sitting up), you know?

That's why my screen can be above the Salon2.

 

[razzy]

ok so i was able to demo several pairs of speakers today
paradigm monitor 9 $1200
paradigm studio 100 $1500
b&w 683 $3500
b&w 802 $15000
(prices all retail)

the experience was HIGHLY informative and really helped me in my quest for a great pair of speakers

now to my thoughts and experiences: all speakers were demo'd w/o a sub
i didn't really like the monitor 9s or the 683s much more than my polk monitor 70's - comparing new/retail prices they were most definitely NOT worth 3 times the price of my monitor70's. i did think the 683's were definitely better than the paradigm monitor 9's though. i figured i'd listen to the 802's for haha's but to my surprise the 802 diamonds were not to my taste - i just didn't really like the way they sounded. not bad but not for me. they were most certainly NOT 5 times better than the studio 100's which i LOVED. the studio 100's were effortless and accurate - not coloring the sound of the recording but giving it as it is - bringing out all the beautiful detail of the song in a way that the lesser speakers weren't able to do. i'm so glad i listened to these b/c they weren't even on my list b/c of the $3500 retail price tag!

I was VERY impressed!

because of this i've concluded that i want to dump ALL of my available money into just two stereo speakers and will add to the setup as i am able. if i go the original route of allocating my budget across all 5 speakers, I won't be able to get a good enough quality of speakers to my taste - i will just feel the need to upgrade them too soon! thats something that i want to avoid. considering that I can get the studio 100's used for around $1500 there's NO way that they are not a great option for me!

SO i am going to completely re-do my list of possibles for speakers and post back soon with it. my new criteria is a single stereo pair of speakers with a budget MAX of $2000 but preferably in the $1,500-1,700 range. I don't think I will be spending more than 1600 to be VERY happy with what I can get. again those studio 100's were SWEET - I just don't want to pull the trigger on them b/c i want to hear more speakers first.

Please comment with anything and everything - thanks!

justin

 

[ahblaza]

Crazy?

I want 5 x Salon2 towers or 5 x 802D2 towers all around!

BTW, I actually lie down on my lounger when watching movies or listening to music in my HT room. Very comfy lying down (instead of sitting up), you know?

That's why my screen can be above the Salon2.

I think that's a very reasonable and doable option 5 X 802Ds lying is my prone position
I really didn't mean you were crazy, I meant I was for considering your suggestions

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think that's a very reasonable and doable option 5 X 802Ds lying is my prone position
I really didn't mean you were crazy, I meant I was for considering your suggestions

Well, I don't think I'm "NORMAL".

I admit it.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

ok so i was able to demo several pairs of speakers today
paradigm monitor 9 $1200
paradigm studio 100 $1500
b&w 683 $3500
b&w 802 $15000
(prices all retail)

the experience was HIGHLY informative and really helped me in my quest for a great pair of speakers

now to my thoughts and experiences: all speakers were demo'd w/o a sub
i didn't really like the monitor 9s or the 683s much more than my polk monitor 70's - comparing new/retail prices they were most definitely NOT worth 3 times the price of my monitor70's. i did think the 683's were definitely better than the paradigm monitor 9's though. i figured i'd listen to the 802's for haha's but to my surprise the 802 diamonds were not to my taste - i just didn't really like the way they sounded. not bad but not for me. they were most certainly NOT 5 times better than the studio 100's which i LOVED. the studio 100's were effortless and accurate - not coloring the sound of the recording but giving it as it is - bringing out all the beautiful detail of the song in a way that the lesser speakers weren't able to do. i'm so glad i listened to these b/c they weren't even on my list b/c of the $3500 retail price tag!

I was VERY impressed!

because of this i've concluded that i want to dump ALL of my available money into just two stereo speakers and will add to the setup as i am able. if i go the original route of allocating my budget across all 5 speakers, I won't be able to get a good enough quality of speakers to my taste - i will just feel the need to upgrade them too soon! thats something that i want to avoid. considering that I can get the studio 100's used for around $1500 there's NO way that they are not a great option for me!

SO i am going to completely re-do my list of possibles for speakers and post back soon with it. my new criteria is a single stereo pair of speakers with a budget MAX of $2000 but preferably in the $1,500-1,700 range. I don't think I will be spending more than 1600 to be VERY happy with what I can get. again those studio 100's were SWEET - I just don't want to pull the trigger on them b/c i want to hear more speakers first.

Please comment with anything and everything - thanks!

justin

Were all the speakers in Direct or Pure Direct mode and bypassed any EQ or DSP or Audyssey?

Perhaps the 802D2 may not sound like $15K, but I doubt they sound worse than any of those speakers. I don't think the 800D2 sound like $25K either, nor the Salon2 sound like $22K, nor the KEF 207/2 sound like $20K.

When I had my Def Tech BP7000SC ($5,500) speakers, I also said I was not very impressed with the 800D ($25K). Looking back, the bass on the BP7000 was more pronounced to me, and the 800D didn't knock my socks off either.

I think most normal folks would say no speaker is worth more than $2,000-$4,000.

So a pair of Salk, Ascend, Philharmonic, or Funk 8.2P will probably be all that anyone ever needs.

I think there's more to speakers than actual SQ, just like there's more to watches than time keeping and more to cars than just how fast they drive.

I'm listening to 2.2 music with my KEF 202/2 + Funk 18.0 now.

 

[ahblaza]

Were all the speakers in Direct or Pure Direct mode and bypassed any EQ or DSP or Audyssey?

Perhaps the 802D2 may not sound like $15K, but I doubt they sound worse than any of those speakers. I don't think the 800D2 sound like $25K either, nor the Salon2 sound like $22K, nor the KEF 207/2 sound like $20K.

When I had my Def Tech BP7000SC ($5,500) speakers, I also said I was not very impressed with the 800D ($25K). Looking back, the bass on the BP7000 was more pronounced to me, and the 800D didn't knock my socks off either.

I think most normal folks would say no speaker is worth more than $2,000-$4,000.

So a pair of Salk, Ascend, Philharmonic, or Funk 8.2P will probably be all that anyone ever needs.

I think there's more to speakers than actual SQ, just like there's more to watches than time keeping and more to cars than just how fast they drive.

I'm listening to 2.2 music with my KEF 202/2 + Funk 18.0 now.

Well said amigo

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I paid $1691 for my TAD speakers delivered, but they are listed as $1900.

TAD TSM-2201-LR STUDIO MONITOR (PR) at Music Direct


I would also look at the Focal 1027S, which retailed $5500, listed as $3300, but probably sell for $3000 delivered.
http://www.musicdirect.com/p-38930-focal-electra-1027-s-tower-speakers-pr.aspx


Also the Focal 1007S, retailed $3500, listed $2K, probably sell for $1800 delivered.
http://www.musicdirect.com/p-38925-focal-electra-1007-s-bookshelf-speakers-pr.aspx

With great subs, these monitors or towers will sound awesome IMO.

In addition to Salk, Philharmonic, Ascend, Funk, TAD, Focal, there's also KEF, Revel.

 

[ahblaza]

Well, I don't think I'm "NORMAL".

I admit it.

Count me in that group

 

[razzy]

Were all the speakers in Direct or Pure Direct mode and bypassed any EQ or DSP or Audyssey?

Perhaps the 802D2 may not sound like $15K, but I doubt they sound worse than any of those speakers. I don't think the 800D2 sound like $25K either, nor the Salon2 sound like $22K, nor the KEF 207/2 sound like $20K.

When I had my Def Tech BP7000SC ($5,500) speakers, I also said I was not very impressed with the 800D ($25K). Looking back, the bass on the BP7000 was more pronounced to me, and the 800D didn't knock my socks off either.

I think most normal folks would say no speaker is worth more than $2,000-$4,000.

So a pair of Salk, Ascend, Philharmonic, or Funk 8.2P will probably be all that anyone ever needs.

I think there's more to speakers than actual SQ, just like there's more to watches than time keeping and more to cars than just how fast they drive.

I'm listening to 2.2 music with my KEF 202/2 + Funk 18.0 now.

hahaha i totally hear you - i'm at a price point where i want great sq first and foremost and the "other stuff" second! basically all the speakers i'm looking at are aesthetically beautiful 'enough' for me - save the ascends which are ATROCIOUS looking hahaha and i'm not considering them anyway b/c they're not towers

but no all the speakers were direct source to amp to speaker. you're correct the 802's didn't sound worse - but to my ears i preferred the paradigms to the b&w's still.

on a side note the guy helping us at the dealer said not to bother listening to the cm8's which he had there (i want to listen to the cm9's but they didn't have them) b/c he said there was no contest b/t either the cm8's or the cm9's and the paradigm studio 100's - i want to believe him - and considering i wasn't awed by the 802's i would assume the cm9 wouldn't take my breath away either but i still want to listen to it somewhere to ease my mind before i cross it off haha its a mental thing you know? any thoughts on that?

i'll have to look into philharmonic and funk - so funk makes speakers as well as subs i guess?

i'll post back soon w/ my list.

 

[razzy]

I paid $1691 for my TAD speakers delivered, but they are listed as $1900.

TAD TSM-2201-LR STUDIO MONITOR (PR) at Music Direct


I would also look at the Focal 1027S, which retailed $5500, listed as $3300, but probably sell for $3000 delivered.
FOCAL ELECTRA 1027 S TOWER SPEAKERS (PR) at Music Direct


Also the Focal 1007S, retailed $3500, listed $2K, probably sell for $1800 delivered.
FOCAL ELECTRA 1007 S BOOKSHELF SPEAKERS (Pr) at Music Direct

With great subs, these monitors or towers will sound awesome IMO.

In addition to Salk, Philharmonic, Ascend, Funk, TAD, Focal, there's also KEF, Revel.

great thanks for this i'll check them all out!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Count me in that group

I think we're all crazy, just different degrees or stages of craziness.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

i'll have to look into philharmonic and funk - so funk makes speakers as well as subs i guess?

Yes, Funk makes sealed and ported unpowered and powered subs, high efficient monitors and towers, and high power amps. They are extremely customizable high-end stuff, top of the food chain.

If I didn't have so many speakers or if my room were bigger (maybe in future), I may get the Funk 8.1P high efficient monitor.

 

[razzy]

GOOD GRIEF why must there be SOO many speaker brands and models available - its literally the worst thing to shop for b/c there's so much money involved and there's no way to test out everything you want to hear. ugh lol

Anyways i was able to go to the best buy magnolia nearest my house and listened to the martin logan motion 40, electromotion esl, and b&w cm9.
i didn't really like any of them - they were just not good enough. not one of them impressed me at all.

suffice it to say i am not a b&w fan at all and i'm pretty sure i would like the higher offerings of martin logan based on listening to the lowest electrostatic they offer - the em esl.

So here's my revised list - I know its long but I have all the non ID offerings to demo save the studio 100's yet. So I'm far from making a choice lol

Possibles:
Paradigm Studio 100 $3500/ /$1475
Energy Veritas V-6.3 $3000/ /1050
Revel F206 $3000/ /
PSB Imagine T2
Monitor Audio Gold GX200 $ / /$1800
KEF R700 $ / /$1850
Focal Chorus 836v ($/$2550)/836w $4400/
comparable canton offering - so annoying can't find prices
Axiom Audio M80 V3 (ID)
Pinnacle BD 2000 II $5000/ (used only) (ID)
Aperion Verus Grand (ID)
Ascend Sierra $1900/ (ID)
Salk Song Tower (ID)
Philharmonic 1 Tower (ID)
Atlantic Technology 8200e LR $3700/ (ID)

****Could any of you tell me (now that you have an idea of my taste) which speakers I can definitively cross off my list considering the only pair of speakers i've heard that i would buy were the paradigm studio 100's ? ?

My options are going to be also limited by availability - since I am buying on a budget, I am limited to what comes up on the used market. The quality of speaker I want I can not afford new (and I wouldn't ever buy new anyways other than possibly internet direct)

ALSO

I want HIGH SPL and I want to FEEL the music and not just HEAR it! SO does that mean that I want a speaker w/ more cones to move more air? I'm pretty sure thats it but please correct me if I am wrong.

For example - people RAVE about the salk song towers - they are only a 3 way design 2 woofers and 1 tweeter. My guess is that they sound good but won't be able to deliver a powerful performance SPL wise am i correct?

This answer will hopefully help me narrow down my choices as well

razzy

 

[mtrot]

GOOD GRIEF why must there be SOO many speaker brands and models available - its literally the worst thing to shop for b/c there's so much money involved and there's no way to test out everything you want to hear. ugh lol

Anyways i was able to go to the best buy magnolia nearest my house and listened to the martin logan motion 40, electromotion esl, and b&w cm9.
i didn't really like any of them - they were just not good enough. not one of them impressed me at all.

suffice it to say i am not a b&w fan at all and i'm pretty sure i would like the higher offerings of martin logan based on listening to the lowest electrostatic they offer - the em esl.

So here's my revised list - I know its long but I have all the non ID offerings to demo save the studio 100's yet. So I'm far from making a choice lol

Possibles:
Paradigm Studio 100 $3500/ /$1475
Energy Veritas V-6.3 $3000/ /1050
Revel F206 $3000/ /
PSB Imagine T2
Monitor Audio Gold GX200 $ / /$1800
KEF R700 $ / /$1850
Focal Chorus 836v ($/$2550)/836w $4400/
comparable canton offering - so annoying can't find prices
Axiom Audio M80 V3 (ID)
Pinnacle BD 2000 II $5000/ (used only) (ID)
Aperion Verus Grand (ID)
Ascend Sierra $1900/ (ID)
Salk Song Tower (ID)
Philharmonic 1 Tower (ID)
Atlantic Technology 8200e LR $3700/ (ID)

****Could any of you tell me (now that you have an idea of my taste) which speakers I can definitively cross off my list considering the only pair of speakers i've heard that i would buy were the paradigm studio 100's ? ?

My options are going to be also limited by availability - since I am buying on a budget, I am limited to what comes up on the used market. The quality of speaker I want I can not afford new (and I wouldn't ever buy new anyways other than possibly internet direct)

ALSO

I want HIGH SPL and I want to FEEL the music and not just HEAR it! SO does that mean that I want a speaker w/ more cones to move more air? I'm pretty sure thats it but please correct me if I am wrong.

For example - people RAVE about the salk song towers - they are only a 3 way design 2 woofers and 1 tweeter. My guess is that they sound good but won't be able to deliver a powerful performance SPL wise am i correct?

This answer will hopefully help me narrow down my choices as well

razzy

Generally, I think yes, but not every tower speaker with 8" woofers moves the same amount of air, or produces and equal level of "slam". Some brands are better than others. Now, if you mainly want massive SPL, I'm sure there are speakers for that. But I am going to assume you want to achieve as much SPL and impact that you can get out of a quality speaker that is also accurate and controlled in response across the frequency range.

One brand you may want to add, that many feel achieves those goals is Dynaudio. They can achieve a nice combination of dynamics, bass response, and non-fatiguing highs, from their soft dome tweeter, that you can listen to for an extended period at high volume. They do run pretty high new, but you can often find nice used models at thousands less than as new prices.

Maybe something like this:

Dynaudio Focus 260 High Gloss Black Lacquer Loudspeakers | Full range | Irvine, California 92602 | AudiogoN - The High-end Audio Community

or, at a lower price, this:

Dynaudio Excite X36 Floorstanders Rosewood | Full range | Santa Rosa, California 95403 | AudiogoN - The High-end Audio Community

Or, if you can stretch your budget, something like this(with the Esotar2 tweeter):

Dynaudio Focus 360 Fantastic sound! | Full range | Chicago, Illinois 60601 | AudiogoN - The High-end Audio Community

 

[razzy]

Generally, I think yes, but not every tower speaker with 8" woofers moves the same amount of air, or produces and equal level of "slam". Some brands are better than others. Now, if you mainly want massive SPL, I'm sure there are speakers for that. But I am going to assume you want to achieve as much SPL and impact that you can get out of a quality speaker that is also accurate and controlled in response across the frequency range.

One brand you may want to add, that many feel achieves those goals is Dynaudio. They can achieve a nice combination of dynamics, bass response, and non-fatiguing highs, from their soft dome tweeter, that you can listen to for an extended period at high volume. They do run pretty high new, but you can often find nice used models at thousands less than as new prices.

Maybe something like this:

Dynaudio Focus 260 High Gloss Black Lacquer Loudspeakers | Full range | Irvine, California 92602 | AudiogoN - The High-end Audio Community

or, at a lower price, this:

Dynaudio Excite X36 Floorstanders Rosewood | Full range | Santa Rosa, California 95403 | AudiogoN - The High-end Audio Community

Or, if you can stretch your budget, something like this(with the Esotar2 tweeter):

Dynaudio Focus 360 Fantastic sound! | Full range | Chicago, Illinois 60601 | AudiogoN - The High-end Audio Community

yeah i meant to put dynaudio on my list - i listened to some of their studio monitors but didn't like them very much - does that mean i probably wouldn't like their regular speaker offerings? or no correlation?

i'll have to find a place to demo them.

 

[jostenmeat]

My options are going to be also limited by availability - since I am buying on a budget, I am limited to what comes up on the used market. The quality of speaker I want I can not afford new (and I wouldn't ever buy new anyways other than possibly internet direct)

ALSO

I want HIGH SPL and I want to FEEL the music and not just HEAR it! SO does that mean that I want a speaker w/ more cones to move more air? I'm pretty sure thats it but please correct me if I am wrong.

For example - people RAVE about the salk song towers - they are only a 3 way design 2 woofers and 1 tweeter. My guess is that they sound good but won't be able to deliver a powerful performance SPL wise am i correct?

This answer will hopefully help me narrow down my choices as well

razzy

"Beggars can't be choosers", but even if not a beggar, and decently well-heeled, compromises still come into play. You see, some of the more powerful speakers out there are able crank because they compromise by not trying to play as low as other hi-fi speakers. See, compromises. You do get your high SPL, but even this compromise is probably over your budget, which I didn't look at and/or remember.

Maybe certain brands like Dynaudio/Revel/Psb/Whoever can actually pull off what you want, but then they might require extremely beef amplification for you to get close. Some Dyn speakers have extremely low sens from what I recall, and I think perhaps the same for certain Revel. And just because you splurge on that beefy amp, then you have to make sure your speakers can handle that power, dissipate the heat. You might want to look at pro audio stuff, ugly, but they won't go quite as low, at least that's my impression.

"More cones" is not necessarily the answer, quality of drivers do matter a whole lot.

The Salks are not 3 ways. It is a 2 way speaker in MTM configuration. There are benefits of being only 2 way, and that is lower cost, and less complexity. Crossovers are a "necessary evil". And truthfully, you sound like someone who needs subwoofers if you want to "feel it".

Ok, $1k budget for 5 speakers? Or have things evolved? In any case, I think you have to realign your expectations. I say this so that you might not go and blow up your speakers and/or receiver when you get your new toys.

 

[razzy]

"Beggars can't be choosers", but even if not a beggar, and decently well-heeled, compromises still come into play. You see, some of the more powerful speakers out there are able crank because they compromise by not trying to play as low as other hi-fi speakers. See, compromises. You do get your high SPL, but even this compromise is probably over your budget, which I didn't look at and/or remember.

Maybe certain brands like Dynaudio/Revel/Psb/Whoever can actually pull off what you want, but then they might require extremely beef amplification for you to get close. Some Dyn speakers have extremely low sens from what I recall, and I think perhaps the same for certain Revel. And just because you splurge on that beefy amp, then you have to make sure your speakers can handle that power, dissipate the heat. You might want to look at pro audio stuff, ugly, but they won't go quite as low, at least that's my impression.

"More cones" is not necessarily the answer, quality of drivers do matter a whole lot.

The Salks are not 3 ways. It is a 2 way speaker in MTM configuration. There are benefits of being only 2 way, and that is lower cost, and less complexity. Crossovers are a "necessary evil". And truthfully, you sound like someone who needs subwoofers if you want to "feel it".

Ok, $1k budget for 5 speakers? Or have things evolved? In any case, I think you have to realign your expectations. I say this so that you might not go and blow up your speakers and/or receiver when you get your new toys.

I'm not worried about the low end - I have two HSU VTF3-MK3 subs for now to do the job.

My budget has a cap of $2000 and I'm allocating all that money towards a stereo pair of speakers and plan to add the center and surrounds later.

The caliber speaker I want can only be had by doing it this way.

Oh yeah shows you how much I know - hahaha 2 way it is

I don't understand what you are saying when you said "I say this so that you might not go and blow up your speakers and/or receiver when you get your new toys."

 

[jostenmeat]

Ah, 2K for two speaks changes things a lot for sure alright.

The quote you ask about, it's like I said, I was just trying to tame your expectations with your old budget. I didn't want you to think, oh I can have cake and eat the whole thing, I mean shoving it in my face double handed, cranking the snot out of it, and all of a sudden you're placing orders for new tweeters, receiver, etc.

Remember how I said some speakers don't go all that low, so that they can do some other things tremendously? Your budget is not quite there, but getting pretty close I'd say, to some Triple 8s for example. Not the highest sens I've ever seen in the world, but the spec given is still VERY high at 98/w/m. If another speaker you're looking at has say a respectable 89/w/m, it still would require EIGHT times the power to match the Triple 8s. Then, you add silly power handling capability to boot, and basically, watch out for your ears.

JTR Speakers*|* Triple 8HT

Make sure to watch it to the end, only 1 min long.
JTR Growler Duo subwoofer & Triple 8 top. - YouTube