The end of the Wife Acceptance Factor! Automated Drop Down Speakers

Craig Gordon

Craig Gordon

Junior Audioholic
What are your main speakers and why aren't they KEF like the surrounds and Atmos speakers? I'm not being critical, just curious.
Oops. Those were my original Thiel speakers. I removed those old photos. I have since replaced those speakers with KEF R700 and KEF R600C.

KEF R700
KEF R600C
KEF R300
KEF Ci200RR-THX
Marantz AV8802A
Marantz MM8807
Sony XBR74X940DX
 
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mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Do you have pictures of the lift mechanism? Or is it too late.
I think you mentioned the space up there but curious how you squeezed the speaker and mechanism in there.
 
Craig Gordon

Craig Gordon

Junior Audioholic
Yes, I missed that link, thanks. WOW. I am more than impressed with all that. Lots of work figuring it all out, lining everything up.
Do you have a motor for two speakers or one for each? I see you utilized the grooved wheels from a garage door system. Impressive.
Well, I used one motor for the right side and right rear, and one motor for the left side and left rear. I originally planned to use 4 motors and I could have. But by using the two everything stays more in sync. IF I had done this pre construction, I could have used one motor for all 4 speakers by just using one long axle and many hubs (grooved wheels). But the whole system was retrofitted and I couldn't get all the way through to both sides.

Here is something that will kill you. I spent months looking for the right motor. I consulted with many actuator companies, Firgelli Automation, computer controlled automation companies, etc. The motors were a fortune and none of them did exactly what I wanted. Most of them required that I use pulleys, gearing, etc regardless to get the extension I wanted. I was willing to pay up to $2000.00 per motor and that was what I was looking at.

And then one of those miracles happened that only happens in fairy tales. I found a motor that:

1. Could have adjustable preset start and stop points. (accurate to 1/16 inch)
2. Could have a safety stop mechanism that would stop if if detected unusual tension. (Would not rip they system apart if something got caught)
3. Could have a safety stop system if something was under the speakers when they started to drop (some kind of electric eye)
4. Was silent (many were way too noisy)
5. Had the proper speed (many of them were way to slow, or way too fast)
4. Was direct drive (no belts to break)
5. Had a safety interlock system if the electricity went out (No speakers falling to floor)
6. Had an optional battery backup
7. Could be under constant tension and would stop if it detected any slack in the system. (Slack would only occur if things were getting tangled up)
8. Was remote controlled and had and Iphone app and could be used with my logitech remote.

Guess how much I paid? Are you sitting down?

I purchased the new Liftmaster 8500 Garage Door openers. I bought 4 at $225.00 each and ended up returning 2. As I explained above, I could have used only one. It does ALL of that stuff in the list in stock configuration except for the battery backup. The price has gone way up since then to about $350.00 each, but Im telling you, the thing is a miracle.

Most of the parts you see are relatively inexpensive direct drive torsion type garage door components!
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Well, I used one motor for the right side and right rear, and one motor for the left side and left rear. I originally planned to use 4 motors and I could have. But by using the two everything stays more in sync. IF I had done this pre construction, I could have used one motor for all 4 speakers by just using one long axle and many hubs (grooved wheels). But the whole system was retrofitted and I couldn't get all the way through to both sides.

Here is something that will kill you. I spent months looking for the right motor. I consulted with many actuator companies, Firgelli Automation, computer controlled automation companies, etc. The motors were a fortune and none of them did exactly what I wanted. Most of them required that I use pulleys, gearing, etc regardless to get the extension I wanted. I was willing to pay up to $2000.00 per motor and that was what I was looking at.

And then one of those miracles happened that only happens in fairy tales. I found a motor that:

1. Could have adjustable preset start and stop points. (accurate to 1/16 inch)
2. Could have a safety stop mechanism that would stop if if detected unusual tension. (Would not rip they system apart if something got caught)
3. Could have a safety stop system if something was under the speakers when they started to drop (some kind of electric eye)
4. Was silent (many were way too noisy)
5. Had the proper speed (many of them were way to slow, or way too fast)
4. Was direct drive (no belts to break)
5. Had a safety interlock system if the electricity went out (No speakers falling to floor)
6. Had an optional battery backup
7. Could be under constant tension and would stop if it detected any slack in the system. (Slack would only occur if things were getting tangled up)
8. Was remote controlled and had and Iphone app and could be used with my logitech remote.

Guess how much I paid? Are you sitting down?

I purchased the new Liftmaster 8500 Garage Door openers. I bought 4 at $225.00 each and ended up returning 2. As I explained above, I could have used only one. It does ALL of that stuff in the list in stock configuration except for the battery backup. The price has gone way up since then to about $350.00 each, but Im telling you, the thing is a miracle.

Most of the parts you see are relatively inexpensive direct drive torsion type garage door components!
Thanks. Looks like lots of the ancillary parts are for garage doors. Couldn't tell the motor though.
Boy, you surely did lots of preplanning, thinking, and probably pretesting.
Yes, during construction would have been simple. Same with me on some aspects. Perhaps I may have had Atmos by now but the fortune teller had no clue of the future. ;)
While I have 14" joists, same as your, TJI, I have 1 1/2 cement for radiant on the 2nd floor. When I mentioned your setup to spouse, she said no way.

The only concern I see is in case or failure of anything, you have to rip up carpet and undo the hole covers.
Thanks.
 
-Jim-

-Jim-

Audioholic General
What an amazing effort. I mentioned it to my Wife she said don't get any crazy ideas. We recently finished a major renovation where I put in Atmos Speakers when the ceilings were down, and got agreement to go to 11.2 with the surrounds hanging off speaker brackets in our Family room.

She did say I can do anything I want in the basement. She calls it the man cave, as she wants me to go down there when i listen to my Blu-Ray Concert Disks.

You have done an amazing job. I bet when your friends come over they all want demonstrations.
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator



I, Craig Gordon DMD, have conquered the Wife Acceptance Factor.

I do not mean I have compromised speaker placement positions and audiophile standards. And I do not mean I have overridden my wife’s desires and my own to leave a room looking like a normal room. I have done both. I have my cake and I’m eating it too. I have created a new automated surroud speaker system. Nobody on the planet has this. It’s amazing. It basically puts your real surround speakers (NOT IN-WALLS!!) exactly where you want them, and puts them away when you are finished. It is accurate to 1/16 of an inch, automated, silent, and does not compromise any audiophile rules.

Let me start by saying that this project took me 7 months to get to where it is now, and as you can see it is not finished. But it is just so awesome I had to show it now. And all the engineering and planning is complete. I just need to finish the left side of the room. It is a Dolby Atmos 7.2.4 system using Kef R700 Left and Right fronts, Kef R600c Center, 4 Kef CCi200 ceiling speakers, and 4 Kef R300 side and rear surrounds. Electronics are Marantz. The surround speakers are exactly where they should be according to Dolby Atmos guidelines. The front and center speakers are where I had them originally. I also have two SVS SB13 Ultra subwoofers and I have not dealt with the wife acceptance factor on those. My wife is simply going to let me get away with them.

By the way, I am one of those guys that believe the room affects the sound far more than the speakers or electronics. The speakers could be any brand or cost level that you want. You are of course limited by size somewhat, but there is no reason this same thing could not be done with towers!

This is not a custom built media room. It is a living room converted to media room like most people have. However this system could easily be used in an actual custom built media room. Do any real audiophiles really want to have in-wall speakers in their custom built ultimate media room? OR do they want to have high quality free standing speakers placed away from the walls (actually away from everything!) so they can sound like an audiophile wants them to sound? And then be able to hide them automatically when they want?

This started when I decided I wanted a Dolby Atmos 7.2.4 system in my existing Family Room/Media Room. My wife said NO speakers on stands, No wires showing, No speakers on shelves to replace the art and knickknacks, NO in-wall speakers!! (Because there was art on the walls where I wanted to put them). Also, there was no room on the “back wall” to put speakers because there were windows running all the way across the back of the room. (These will eventually be covered by acoustic drapes or shades to replace the existing plantation shutters). I have a coffered ceiling which my wife did not want me to remove.
The project involved a ton of research, planning, engineering, and reading. It involved electrical, robotics, physics, acoustics, engineering, plumbing, air conditioning, and structural concerns. It involved screw-ups, errors, and hanging everything up temporarily to make sure it sounded good!

Each tweeter of the 4 surrounds is (or will be) exactly 18 inches above my ear when seated in my center media seat and all positioning was accomplished using lasers. The system puts these speakers in the same position plus or minus 1/32 of an inch. I could put them higher or lower. Notice the rear speakers are even toed in!

You are probably thinking “Well, that’s cute but I don’t have a giant attic above my media room”. Either do I! The entire system runs horizontally through the ceiling between my first and second floors.
The main question you should be asking is “how does that cable work?” It could be a spool out cable like Stage Ninja makes (and I considered), but those all use a sliding contact. A sliding contact is a weak and poor contact that begins wearing out the first day you use it. Eventually, it does wear out! It is not an audiophile solution. I also considered simply hooking up a cable by hand when the speakers were down and removing it before putting them up. But what if I accidentally hit the up button while the cables were attached? Yikes. The cable you see is a 12 gauge oxygen free copper speaker cable that is continuous from amplifier output to speaker input. There is no break in it. How did I get it to pull itself back up into the ceiling without tangling or getting caught? The answer is not “it’s on a pulley or spool”. The physics of the situation is that no pulley or spool placed in a cable path will allow a continuous unbroken cable to spool out or in without putting that cable somewhere else. I might have used a counterweight to pull the excess cable in a specific path. But I did not, because I had no place to put a counterweight which obviously would have to travel down as the speakers go up. My method is more accurate, safer, and better. This entire system was retrofitted to my existing situation in the space between my media room ceiling and upstairs bedroom floors which by pure coincidence was 14 inches. The big Kef R300 bookshelf is 25 pounds and 15.5 inches tall, but I was able to make more space by placing acoustic absorption and fabric on my ceilings. This fabric also covers the 4 ceiling speakers, and even though it decreased my ceiling height (10.5 ft) to 10.25 ft it is completely unnoticeable.

True, I have not included the actual parts or design. I’m involved with some companies right now and I’m not quite prepared to do that. But I will.

Advantages:
1. Allows any speaker position in the room relative to seated listener position.
2. Allows any speaker height relative to seated listener position No speaker stands to knock over! Safer than stands. I could add another 200 pounds to each speaker and the cables would hold easily.
3. Allows you to place speakers where they SHOULD be placed in the room relative to seated listener position
4. No wires to trip over
5. No sound transmission through floor or shelves that would normally be caused by the speakers sitting there
6. It’s so COOL!
7. Does not look ugly! It looks awesome!
8. Disappears when you want.
9. Parts are relatively cheap.
10. Relatively silent operation
11. Operated by remote control, switch, or phone app.
12. When the system is hidden, nobody can poke at your speaker drivers.
13. Speakers final up and down position is accurate
14. System is silent
15. Speaker movement start by accelerating to speed then ends with deceleration to stop. No abrupt movements.

Disadvantages
1. Complicated engineering involved
2. Labor intensive
3. Expensive to have built.
4. Could be dangerous if activated when someone is standing directly below them. But the movement is pretty slow as you can see. Also, I could easily setup an electric eye system that would stop movement should anyone cross the movement path. Getting something out of the cabinets below and standing up quickly without looking could result in a whack to the head.
5. Oddly shaped or coffered ceilings could present some difficulties.
6. The way the system is currently set up, physically lifting the speakers or intentionally impeding their downward travel might possibly throw things out of adjustment.
I love the ingenuity. Great work! Would love to hear more on how it actually works.
 
D

dstang24

Audiophyte
Sorry to ping an old thread. The Microsoft drive link of the video is dead. Any chance it's available elsewhere? Looking for the video where you show the lifter, tracks, wire management, etc. TIA!
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I checked very carefully into this because I didnt want to go through the trouble if it might affect the "solidity" of the sound. No, the woofer cone (and most certainly not the tweeter) will not move the speaker no matter how low in frequency and loud it is played. The mass differences are way too different. And of course these are crossed over at 80hz.

Yes, sound waves could get transmitted to the shelf or floor that a speaker is sitting on, but the speaker cabinet only vibrates because of the reflected sound inside the speaker, not because the cones move the speaker.
If you play the resonant frequency of the metal used to lower the speakers, you will see them move. It's the whole 'For every action, there's an equal and opposite reaction' thing. The woofer cone is pushing out, but that, by necessity, pushes its frame backward, to the extent that it can. Obviously, it won't push with the same amplitude as it would at 40Hz or below, but it will move.

If you can make it swing, it will swing because of low frequencies. Will it matter? Maybe not.
 
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