The Audio Path In Consumer-Grade Products

[Pogre]

That can happen when people don't read what is written and erect straw man positions out of thin air. Par for the course in these discussions.

Wow, I meant eargiant, not you. I edited my post above. Sorry 'bout that.

 

[Goliath]

Wow, I meant eargiant, not you. I edited my post above. Sorry 'bout that.

No worries.

 

[<eargiant]

S

For me, sure. as long as it's a true dbt performed by a third party. Even if he passes it all that says is that's he's one of maybe 10 people on the planet who could do so.

Ever heard of Richard Clark and his $10,000 amp challenge? He claims 1000's have tried and no one collected the prize. Here's another interesting article on the subject.

Nothing new here. Ever hear of Julian Hirsch?

Anyway, I glanced at the Clark challenge and unless I'm missing something it seems he's talking about car amplifiers that are set to the same specs driven by the same pre-amp (again, same specs). Why would this surprise anyone?

Now, listening to an AVR (which is a pre-set internal combo) or a Pre/Pro like the Marantz in the article and comparing them to a DAC3 Pre & AHB2 Amp with completely different parameters is an entirely different thing. I bet Clarke wouldn't put up $10k for that challenge.

Also, it wouldn't matter if John was the only "one of maybe 10 people on the planet" who could pass the test. The point is that it would be proven that the difference is audible.

 

[Goliath]

Anyway, I glanced at the Clark challenge and unless I'm missing something it seems he's talking about car amplifiers that are set to the same specs driven by the same pre-amp (again, same specs). Why would this surprise anyone?

Audiophiles have been claiming for ages that each amplifier has its own specific sound that is not related to "simple" measurements. Frequency response is the most simple of them all.

If you cannot distinguish an expensive audiophile amp because you made the other amp's frequency response equally messed up, then you've shown that you probably paid a lot of money for non-defeatable, non-configurable, i.e. fixed tone-"controls".

No sane, rational person would claim that an "amplifier" that modifies frequency response would be indistinguishable from one that did not. And they don't.

Conversely, "audiophiles" will adamantly deny that the EQ imposed by their special effects box is in any way related to audibility signature, just too simple an explanation and that the reasons are more esoteric and "unknown".

Richard Clarke is merely making a provision for the most outlandish hypothetical product...because he knows there's a high end sucker born every minute.

 

[<eargiant]

Audiophiles have been claiming for ages that each amplifier has its own specific sound that is not related to "simple" measurements. Frequency response is the most simple of them all.

If you cannot distinguish an expensive audiophile amp because you made the other amp's frequency response equally messed up, then you've shown that you probably paid a lot of money for non-defeatable, non-configurable, i.e. fixed tone-"controls".

No sane, rational person would claim that an "amplifier" that modifies frequency response would be indistinguishable from one that did not. And they don't.

Conversely, "audiophiles" will adamantly deny that the EQ imposed by their special effects box is in any way related to audibility signature, just too simple an explanation and that the reasons are more esoteric and "unknown".

Richard Clarke is merely making a provision for the most outlandish hypothetical product...because he knows there's a high end sucker born every minute.

Yup I get all that and in many cases I agree with the coloration aspect of this hobby you mention, but let's not get off track. This is not about coloration or amps & pre-amps set to equivalent parameters, it's quite the opposite. This thread started on the design, construction & setting differences (and limitations imposed by them) of the Marantz vs specifically the Benchmark DAC3 /AHB2 combo. This led to the statements that we wouldn't be able to hear it anyway when listening to real music.

So simple question, if I got John to conduct the ABX test with music and again identify the Benchmark combo successfully - would you be satisfied?

 

[Pogre]

Also, it wouldn't matter if John was the only "one of maybe 10 people on the planet" who could pass the test. The point is that it would be proven that the difference is audible.

Who cares if one guy can hear something nobody else can?

 

[<eargiant]

Who cares if one guy can hear something nobody else can?

Oh I see, first it's prove it - then if proven it's who cares.

Curious though, how would you know that nobody else can?

 

[Pogre]

How do you know nobody else can?

Aside from from what I've read about it, I dont. I just know from my own personal experiences and the accounts of many, many others. One of the common threads that runs through these types of discussion are that one camp has data correlating with their claims, and the other does not. Can you show me evidence or data to back any of your claims?

Again, why would I care if a hundred people can hear what no one else can? Show me where a majority was able tell the difference since it's so obvious.

 

[M Code]

Amplifiers with a Class A/B design can/will have different sonics...
However the primary reason is not due to the topology of the output stage but rather the SOA (safe operating area) of the output devices for voltage/current and type of protection circuitry implemented. The protection circuitry may be activated by temperature, high dynamic range, excessive current/voltage, loudspeaker load impedance... A higher SOA requires more rugged ouput devices with an increased VA (voltage/current) ratings, also when an output device become hot such as 60 degrees C its efficiency drops by up to 50%.

The temperature for an output stage of a lower rated amplifier climbs steeply as the listener is pushing the amplifier to output a higher power beyond its ratings so he continues to raise the volume level to compensate for this.. So often the mentioned audible differences heard are simply the action of the protection circuitry being activated..
For example if the current draw is too high and the protection ciruitry works to decrease this..
Keep in mind, a loudspeaker is not a resistor (except Magnaplanars) and the load to amplifier is reactive including various phase angles..

Just my $0.02...

 

[<eargiant]

Aside from from what I've read about it, I dont. I just know from my own personal experiences and the accounts of many, many others. One of the common threads that runs through these types of discussion are that one camp has data correlating with their claims, and the other does not. Can you show me evidence or data to back any of your claims?

Again, why would I care if a hundred people can hear what no one else can? Show me where a majority was able tell the difference since it's so obvious.

Do you realize what you are saying? The point wasn't to determine if a majority could hear the difference. It was to refute the point that there was no difference.

If I get you the "evidence", "data" or proof you seek which is that the difference CAN be heard you will then say it doesn't matter because the sample is not large enough. Now you want a majority?!?! How the heck is anyone going to meet that standard??? You want to line up the worlds population at Benchmarks door in Syracuse?

 

[Pogre]

Do you realize what you are saying? The point wasn't to determine if a majority could hear the difference. It was to refute the point that there was no difference.

If I get you the "evidence", "data" or proof you seek which is that the difference CAN be heard you will then say it doesn't matter because the sample is not large enough. Now you want a majority?!?! How the heck is anyone going to meet that standard??? You want to line up the worlds population at Benchmarks door in Syracuse?

You do realize that this is hypothetical and didn't happen (with music), right? lol

How about a room of 12 people? Or is that too unreasonable?

 

[<eargiant]

You do realize that this is hypothetical and didn't happen (with music), right? lol

How about a room of 12 people? Or is that too unreasonable?

Make up your mind. First you say it wouldn't matter if 100 people could hear it and now 12 is acceptable?

Now you're talking...

But you know what's even better than 12 strangers hearing the difference? Hearing it yourself

 

[Goliath]

So simple question, if I got John to conduct the ABX test with music and again identify the Benchmark combo successfully - would you be satisfied?

If it's a proctored DBT then sure, it would suffice.

 

[PENG]

As I would like to see yours , if I like John Siau got all 25 out of 25 trials correct.

At 0.01W level, some class ab amps don't do well. I doubt he could score 25/25 at a little higher level, say 0.1 to 0.2W, just my 0.2 cent..

 

[Goliath]

Amplifiers with a Class A/B design can/will have different sonics...

I agree with the 'can' part.

However the primary reason is not due to the topology of the output stage but rather the SOA (safe operating area) of the output devices for voltage/current and type of protection circuitry implemented. The protection circuitry may be activated by temperature, high dynamic range, excessive current/voltage, loudspeaker load impedance...

Yes, which we covered already - ie unless the amplifier is driven into nonlinear behaviour...

Of course if an amp is clipping then it can sound different. The comparison would then be invalid as the conditions under test are unequal.

IME, strong influences on sound quality can be tied to the casual nature in which the amplifiers are often compared. Very rarely are volume levels carefully matched and I know from experience that if this is not done it can lead to the (false) impression that the amp has some inherent, unique sonic signature.

I know from experience and being in the audio industry myself, that virtually every audiophile comparison has one of these glaring flaws that can explain the strong influences that people often report in their testing.

It's no surprise that 1) if you compare amplifiers differently to one another that they'll sound different because you compared them differently 2) if you don't listen blind then impartial sonic judgements are next to impossible.

The vast majority of casual comparisons made which I see all over the internet have these two glaring flaws present.

Just my $0.02...

You offered some very good points and I agree with most of what you wrote.

 

[Pogre]

Make up your mind. First you say it wouldn't matter if 100 people could hear it and now 12 is acceptable?

Now you're talking...

But you know what's even better than 12 strangers hearing the difference? Hearing it yourself

You just circled back "the one guy who can hear it".

I already told that I do not hear a difference between my dedicated ATI amplifier and my receiver. I can switch pretty quickly between the 2 and there's no audible difference at all. That's what my ears hear.

*Edit: You have yet to show us any data to backup your claims.

 

[Irvrobinson]

The ATI spec is also confusing, see page 11 in the manual linked below (surely you have read it right?)

http://www.ati-amp.com/manuals/at1202manual.pdf

-The following applies to all channels being driven simultaneously with 8 ohm loads and an input sensitivity of 28dB gain unless otherwise specified.

-Input Sensitivity for Full Rated Power 0.9 Volts

-Gain Voltage gain of 24dB

The fact is, if the V gain is in fact 24dB, you need 1.4V rms to get just over 60W, or about 0.9V if the gain is 28dB. Page 11 got it all covered!!

I am sure you have a good rms meter that can also measure peak, so please take some measurements of Vin and Vout and share the results.

I can do those measurements, but unfortunately, I'm not going to be in same city as that system for a few weeks. Even if I was, it's a PITA to get those pieces out and back into the cabinet they're in, so I'd probably be too lazy to do it. I know the Outlaw pre-pro is the problem child here, since I've tested the ATI amp with other equipment and had flawless results. I've pretty much written off the Outlaw as a lesson in getting what you pay for.

 

[Pogre]

Make up your mind. First you say it wouldn't matter if 100 people could hear it and now 12 is acceptable?

Now you're talking...

But you know what's even better than 12 strangers hearing the difference? Hearing it yourself

And also, you're twisting my words. I said I didn't care if only 100 people on the planet could hear the difference, but a majority result among 12 random people (even a few goldenears) would be acceptable as a representation of your average consumer.

Look, I told you I'm new to this and to be honest I like watching you squirm while clutching at straws trying to debate your claims as true to some of the more educated folks in the community. I think you'll get better answers from those guys anyway.

 

[<eargiant]

You just circled back "the one guy who can hear it".

I already told that I do not hear a difference between my dedicated ATI amplifier and my receiver. I can switch pretty quickly between the 2 and there's no audible difference at all. That's what my ears hear.

*Edit: You have yet to show us any data to backup your claims.

Of course I circled back because in the end you are the "one guy" that is important.

I assume the ATI is just the amp portion, was it driven by the pre in the receiver? If so, what does that have to do with the point of this thread?

The same amp with different pre-amps simply using different gain settings is going to sound different (assuming the amp is compatible). That if a FACT.

You may not like the sound (many beginners find a low gain setting dry, bland or un-involving) but it will be different.

 

[<eargiant]

And also, you're twisting my words. I said I didn't care if only 100 people on the planet could hear the difference, but a majority result among 12 random people (even a few goldenears) would be acceptable as a representation of your average consumer.

Now we're going to argue semantics?

Where did you pull that "only" from? You said and I quote "why would I care if a hundred people can hear what no one else can?"

and I said- "First you say it wouldn't matter if 100 people could hear it..."

How exactly am I twisting your words?

... I like watching you squirm while clutching at straws trying to debate your claims as true to some of the more educated folks in the community. I think you'll get better answers from those guys anyway.

That says a lot more about you than it does about me.

BTW, nobody on this end is squirming. Not one bit.