Tekton Enzo - The most inexpensive speakers that is in the league with high-end speaker

[SearchofSub]

I think you will be happy with the mLores, did you get a delivery date? Did you order a custom sub from them? keep us posted on how this turns out and what you think, also pics would be great when it all comes... I think the main problem with some on here, is that they find it hard to trust people... You talk to Eric on the phone, you feel his passion about the products, he doesn't try to sell you the most expensive speakers he has, he sells you what he thinks you will like after answering a few of his questions... I called looking for something efficient, not caring what I spent{although I wanted to spend as little as possible}, he could have sold me something 3 times the cost since in the high efficiency market their isn't much that isn't expensive {I am not a klipsch fan and don't like horns much}... But after explaining it to him he said the lores sounded like what I would like, and if I didn't I could send them back... Thats all I needed to hear, he talked to me on the phone at 10pm for an hour for a measly $900 sale!!! I hate to say it but I can not remember the last time I spoke to a customer for an hour for a sale under $12K... I just sold a $68K geothermal system to a customer today and after 35 minutes at their kitchen table I was ready to stop talking about it, and the profit on a job like that is more than most middle class families net annually, this guy has the attention and care to spend an hour on the phone for what? $300 in profit if hes lucky.... To me that is worth taking the chance on a speaker I never heard....

Yeah exactly.. he does seem like he cares a whole lot, its just there are so many demands and sometimes he cannot keep up with it. He also spent a good amount of time talking to me about his product, he could have easilly sold me the eNZO's but talked me into downgrading after I told him I am mostly about movies (room size as well).. Some people at AVSForum are calling him a liar but I dont think thats the case, if his intergrity was in question, I think he would have sold me the enzo's staright up. I just think the orders for his speakers are overwhelming and he simply cannot keep up with the demands since he's a one-man builder for the Tektons..

I am getting a custom made sub to go with the M-Lores... He said he's going to build me a "killer-sub" for about a $1,000. Something thats musical and fast and tight but has good extension as well.

The sorrounds which are going to be Bipole are going to be custom made with M-Lore drivers and he's going to do the frequency sweep for the whole 4.1 system so they match perfectly for HT before shipping.

I am expecting to get them by early December (but only by my request). He offered for a 5 week delivery time but something came up that I had to pay for..


Have you ever used the Lore's when watching movies?

 

[SearchofSub]

Obviously I'm not GranteedEV, but I have an XLS 2500 and Philharmonic 3's (Grant has the 2's). The XLS 2500 is a great amp and I would have no problem using it for speakers, in fact I did for quite a while with my desk speakers. I couldn't hear any differences between it and much more "audiophile" amps, although I've got a couple of those as well. I would highly recommend the XLS series of amplifiers for any type of use.

As to the Philharmonics, which I'm assuming you're talking about, I bought them sight unseen (unheard). Based on reviews, all the measurements, talking to Dennis (the owner and designer), and consulting with a lot of member on this forum who know a thing or two about speakers themselves I decided they were the right move. I've been extremely happy with them and don't regret the purchase whatsoever.

What are the stregnths and negatives of the Phil 3's in movies/music? thanks.

 

[chaluga]

Have you ever used the Lore's when watching movies?[/QUOTE]

I have the oriels which are very similar to the lores and for me they are great for movies. Just watched oblivion and the scene at the 1:14 mark was awesome. Chills down my back . Turned it up to 100db.

 

[Matt34]

If you neg people just because they disagree with you, I will rep them.

 

[fuzz092888]

What are the stregnths and negatives of the Phil 3's in movies/music? thanks.

Output, especially in the bass to lower bass region. In a small to medium sized room, they can get plenty loud and can even fill a large room with absolutely terrific, accurate sound. However because of their sensitivity and the way the bass section is set up, they are output limited to a certain extent. If you're not looking for 100+db in a 3000cuft room, then they're hard to beat.

As to the XLS, I bought it because it's accurate and just plain performs as an amplifier should. It takes the input signal, amplifies it, and pumps it out the other end unchanged.

 

[NewHTbuyer]

I remember reading some of the original threads about tekton and it seems like a perfect storm of three things happened at once that set people off.

1) Apparent design flaws (I cannot comment on the validity of the flaws, since I do not know jack about speaker design, I just remember some very in depth critiques of the design, specifically the Pendragon)

2) Lack of third party measurements.

3) Professional reviews that went beyond glowing, into the realm of hyperbole.

Now, I see nothing wrong with healthy skepticism when combining those factors, but the degree of harsh comments about Tekton does seem extreme at times. I am sure the high sensitivity plays a role in why so many people are big fans. I was close to ordering Pendragons for my shootout, but the 15% restocking fee scared me away.

 

[chaluga]

I remember reading some of the original threads about tekton and it seems like a perfect storm of three things happened at once that set people off.

1) Apparent design flaws (I cannot comment on the validity of the flaws, since I do not know jack about speaker design, I just remember some very in depth critiques of the design, specifically the Pendragon)

2) Lack of third party measurements.

3) Professional reviews that went beyond glowing, into the realm of hyperbole.

Now, I see nothing wrong with healthy skepticism when combining those factors, but the degree of harsh comments about Tekton does seem extreme at times. I am sure the high sensitivity plays a role in why so many people are big fans. I was close to ordering Pendragons for my shootout, but the 15% restocking fee scared me away.

Well said , you need a bigger tv though ! Loving my 70 inch.

 

[shadyJ]

Their were some third party measurements for the Pendragons here, the measurements didn't have much depth but they didn't look bad on the face of it. I would say if you want high sensitivity speakers, there are a lot of good proven designs, so why spend a lot for an iffy design that has a long wait time? Gedlee and Pi speakers both have a lot of third party vetting and are proven designs, as are some of the Klipsch and JBL speakers. Oh that's right, they aren't traditional tower speakers, and of course any speaker with a wave guide is going to sound as shrill and shrieking as a macaw with a sore throat, because no horn could ever sound different than high school PA speakers or an air raid siren.

 

[GranteedEV]

Grantees , I notice you have crown xls 2000 amp ? What made you buy that one ? That model got a huge influx of sales from Andrew Robinson reviews.

What are you trying to imply? That Andre Robinson's review introduced me to the crown? Because that review came out in March, 2012, and according to google, I was pluggin these things as far back as October 2011:http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/amps-pre-pros-receivers/76406-what-best-me-2-x-upa-1-one-xpa-2-a.html#post834535Of course my recommendations were grounded in sensibility - the quiet variable speed fan, the sheer efficiency of class D, and the load independant output filter design, all at a reasonable price, if you're willing to live with labels like "pro sound junk" from snobs. I'm certainly not going around claiming they are a dream amp - my dream amp would probably be some Mola-Mola Kaluga - not that I'm suggesting anyone on this board, except maybe AcuDefTechGuy, Fuzz, Walter, Gene, and Irv Robinson, go buy them. I did appreciate Andrew's positive remarks about the Crown unit, but I still don't get what you're trying to implicate me with. I don't think his opinion should get wieghted any higher than anyone else's, unless he did extensive objective testing, which he didn't.

You also have speakers that are hard to buy without not hearing them first.

They are very easy to buy without hearing them first. They measure pretty much ruler flat on the design-axis, have extremely smooth off-axis response, excellent drivers, and all of that is (or at least was?) laid bare on the website. Dennis certainly isn't charging anyone 300 dollar "Restocking" fees, and ironically enough one of his own personal biggest fans did NOT like them at all (Nuance) so it's far from some over-glorified speaker. Either way, I still don't get what you're trying to implicate for me. They had my interest before """"anyone of note""""" ever bought them.

What made you buy the crown amp ? My point is that Andrew Robinson gets painted as a shill by a coupe.of people . He is the only pro reviewer I know who recommends the xls series by crown. He also highly rates oppo , monoprice cables , dune media player , tekton , parasound . All of these companies have many great pro reviews .

Umm... okay? What's your point? The fact is that there's many, many products out there with "many great pro reviews ." whatever a pro review is if the person reviewing doesn't put the product through perceptually relevant objective testing.

When I went to my local hifi stores I listened to polk rti a series , b&w cdm series , monitor audio silver series , kef q series , klipsch rt series , and some tannoy and jbl. I looked at reviews and all got good measurements online .

Well that's news to me. I've never seen great measurements of any of those. I was probably one of the first to point out the issues with the KEF Q900 measurements (although I never really noticed them until I looked carefully at them), and as far as JBL goes, I only tell people to look at the JBL Pro LSR monitors, not the best buy stuff.

As for off axis stuff I am the only person who listens to my system critically.

People say this a lot, but their implication is that off-axis response does not end up being the sound power response, which in turn becomes the reflected response. I'm glad you like your speakers but to discount their fundamental design flaws "because you like them" seems a bit arrogant to me.

 

[chaluga]

Their were some third party measurements for the Pendragons here, the measurements didn't have much depth but they didn't look bad on the face of it. I would say if you want high sensitivity speakers, there are a lot of good proven designs, so why spend a lot for an iffy design that has a long wait time? Gedlee and Pi speakers both have a lot of third party vetting and are proven designs, as are some of the Klipsch and JBL speakers. Oh that's right, they aren't traditional tower speakers, and of course any speaker with a wave guide is going to sound as shrill and shrieking as a macaw with a sore throat, because no horn could ever sound different than high school PA speakers or an air raid siren.

I looked at Pi speakers in the past and could not find any decent reviews out their. Your third party vetting is measurements and white papers and mine is seeing someone compare a speaker I have not heard to a speaker I have heard. I need at least three different reviewers to look at a product if I can't go into store and hear it for myself.

The Gedlee speakers are just hideous to look at and my speakers are in my living room.

You mentioned the flawed design. Bill Fitz on Avs said this
"I'm saying that a single woofer speaker capable of 30Hz extension can do so with 88dB sensitivity. It cannot do so with 98dB sensitivity, nor anywhere near that. And this relates back to my oft repeated mantra that there are only two reasons why a manufacturer doesn't post SPL charts: They don't have them, or they don't want you to see them."

So I have a 88db B&W speaker and a 98 db tekton speaker with 10 inch woofer. I play a 32hz tone through each one and 120 hz through each one. THe tekton plays the tone well and the b & w with a 6 inch woofer obviously doesn't. I hook up the pair of b&w speakers and play serveral songs at 90 db spl at my listening area which is ten feet from speakers. I measure with a spl meter. On my denon receiver it says -14db (for 88db B& W). The only thing I change is the speakers. I play the same song and use the spl meter to turn the volume up on my denon so its hitting 90 db's. THe volume reads -22db on the volume level of my denon for the tektons.

Here is the chart for power and efficiency



So it takes eight times the power to increase eight dbs. THen I use crowns amp power calculator



and then with the tektons



Now I am not a math teacher, or an engineer , just a wood teacher. But the tekton plays eight- nine db's louder on several songs, and the numbers that I plug into the crown calculator are close. I could be completely messed up and not be taking something into account ( if so please point out my error) but my tekton 10 inch woofer can play to 32hz ( i know not 30 but close enough for me) and is way louder using the spl meter.

If I was going to use a different company for high sensativity I would use JTR speakers.

 

[chaluga]

What are you trying to imply? ]
The fact is that there's many, many products out there with "many great pro reviews ." whatever a pro review is if the person reviewing doesn't put the product through perceptually relevant objective testing.

To me the difference between a "pro review" and you, me and virtually everyone else on this forum is that the "pro" has had dozens and dozens of speakers in his listening environment playing music and movies that he/she is very familiar with. Actually listening to songs and watching movies , not test tones.

People say this a lot, but their implication is that off-axis response does not end up being the sound power response, which in turn becomes the reflected response. I'm glad you like your speakers but to discount their fundamental design flaws "because you like them" seems a bit arrogant to me.

here's the part that is funny. You love your Phil's ... by Dennis Murphy, and by all accounts their great speakers. Dennis Murphy on the AVS thread said this

"The Tekton designger has a lot of experience in the industry and I'm sure he's well aware of the beaming issues on a 10" driver. But he has 3 tweeters going, and he may have been able to lower the crossover point to where off-axis response is still
acceptable. Also, you would be surprised at how nice a speaker can sound even if the woofers are dying off to the sides. The original large Advent had quite a following (10" 2-way), and I had a simiar home brew speaker going in my kitchen for awhile. Sometimes
the lack of energy to the sides can translate into a seemingly clearer midrange. I'm not sure it's really accurate, but it can be enjoyable nonetheless. Somebody in Washington D.C. should hurry up and buy one of these things so I can take a listen."

The guy who designed your speakers isn't saying their flawed and would like to hear a pair ! But I am the arrogant one. No I am just tired of people who have never heard them ,discounting them and referring to them as inferior. Yes the production times are garbage and he has definitely lied to people. I don't recommend them to my friends due to the wait times. But I put a lot more value in Dennis Murphy and "pro reviewers" .

 

[fuzz092888]

Actually he kinda did. The quote you chose, while even-handed, still recognized the possibility of the design flaws. Just look at the bolded parts. Not that I think Dennis would ever bash someone else, you have to realize you are quoting a well respected person in the DIY and ID communities speaking about, not only another small ID company, but a direct competitor. If you can't see where I'm going with this well then....

here's the part that is funny. You love your Phil's ... by Dennis Murphy, and by all accounts their great speakers. Dennis Murphy on the AVS thread said this

"The Tekton designger has a lot of experience in the industry and I'm sure he's well aware of the beaming issues on a 10" driver. But he has 3 tweeters going, and he may have been able to lower the crossover point to where off-axis response is still
acceptable. Also, you would be surprised at how nice a speaker can sound even if the woofers are dying off to the sides. The original large Advent had quite a following (10" 2-way), and I had a simiar home brew speaker going in my kitchen for awhile. Sometimes
the lack of energy to the sides can translate into a seemingly clearer midrange. I'm not sure it's really accurate, but it can be enjoyable nonetheless. Somebody in Washington D.C. should hurry up and buy one of these things so I can take a listen."

 

[VicTorious1]

Actually he kinda did. The quote you chose, while even-handed, still recognized the possibility of the design flaws. Just look at the bolded parts. Not that I think Dennis would ever bash someone else, you have to realize you are quoting a well respected person in the DIY and ID communities speaking about, not only another small ID company, but a direct competitor. If you can't see where I'm going with this well then....

Isn't Dennis really saying that with those design trade offs it's still possible for the Tektons to sound good and that he would withhold judgment until he could measure them/hear them? If a speaker designer is not trying to create super accurate speakers and anticipates or intends for the woofer to die off to the sides, could you really call it a design flaw if that's the intended design and sound result the manufacturer is going for?

I can attest to my M Lores not being as accurate or detailed as my Phils, nor is the bass as tight as the Phils. In addition, the soundstage is smaller and the more instruments that are playing on any given track the more likely the M Lores sound as if the distinct sounds are blended together or on top of each other. Whereas with my Phils, the sound stage never collapses. For example, if there are 6 instruments playing they all hold their location with the Phils.

With all that being said, I still enjoy listening to my M Lores.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

What made you buy the crown amp ?

I guarantee you that most of us bought the Crown XLS amps way BEFORE we even knew anything about this guy Andrew Robinson. And most people have never even heard of the guy. Is he like a big shot? Has he measured any speakers or amps or ANYTHING ? No.

Why did I buy them?

1) It has great specification like power output, SNR, crosstalk, etc. The Tekton doesn't even have a frequency response!
2) Features like limiters, XO, LCD, digital controls, etc.
3) Efficient and operates very cool and quiet.
4) Weighs only 10 lbs.
5) Looks decent.
6) Made by Harman International - the same company that owns Revel Salon2, JBL Synthesis Everest, Lexicon, Mark Levinson. The $2500 MSRP Lexicon DD-8 amp is the same amp as the Crown CT8150 amp.

BTW, have you seen that YouTube video where the Crown amp engineers where the Mark Levinson T-shirts?

 

[fuzz092888]

Design flaw and tradeoff, it's really just semantics. People tend to label certain tradeoffs as flaws when accuracy is compromised. I can't comment on what the designer was going for because I haven't read it nor have I heard any of the speakers in question. From what you describe I'd call it more of a flaw. That being said, just because I call it a flaw and you call it a design consideration doesn't mean that you shouldn't enjoy the sound or that I wouldn't for certain applications. I've grown to appreciate accuracy and at this point wouldn't spend money on something that wasn't pretty accurate, but that doesn't I haven't and don't enjoy certain speakers or systems that are "non-audiophile".

My main point about the Tektons isn't that no one should buy them, or that they sound horrific (at least I'm told they don't), it's that if you wanted a high sensitivity speaker there are much more accurate ones that will deliver all that the Tektons do for less money and question marks. Tack on the other baggage and it seems like an unnecessary risk from my POV. What it looks like from someone else's POV is for them to decide and it's their money to spend. If they choose to take the leap and are satisfied with the purchase I give them a big virtual pat on back (no sarcasm intended) and say good for you. I'm happy with what I've got, you're happy with what you've got, the end. I'm not here to bash Tekton, only to make sure it's an informed buying decision. These are the known and suspected issues. These are the problems people have had. The pro-reviews are a little suspect in some cases and purely subjective in others. These are your other options.

Isn't Dennis really saying that with those design trade offs it's still possible for the Tektons to sound good and that he would withhold judgment until he could measure them/hear them? If a speaker designer is not trying to create super accurate speakers and anticipates or intends for the woofer to die off to the sides, could you really call it a design flaw if that's the intended design and sound result the manufacturer is going for?

I can attest to my M Lores not being as accurate or detailed as my Phils, nor is the bass as tight as the Phils. In addition, the soundstage is smaller and the more instruments that are playing on any given track the more likely the M Lores sound as if the distinct sounds are blended together or on top of each other. Whereas with my Phils, the sound stage never collapses. For example, if there are 6 instruments playing they all hold their location with the Phils.

With all that being said, I still enjoy listening to my M Lores.

 

[fuzz092888]

My biggest issue is that Eric was measurement happy when he first got started. If you go to the Tekton blog and all the way back you see on axis measurements for nearly everything (although more would have been better), but as time went on and the company started to get bigger the measurements almost completely died out, save for a single bass response measurement of the Pendragons (I think). What changed that he would speak so highly of how his speakers measured and even compare them to the competition (some Wilson's I believe), but then suddenly stop?

Oh yea, and there's that bit claiming they are extremely accurate with no proof. Hey, say whatever you want about your stuff subjectively, but if you want to make objective statements back it up.

I don't have any problem with Tekton or any speakers.


But I think many hardcore audiophiles have "issues" with speakers that claim to be the "second coming" or "better than Salon2" and yet have absolutely no proofs like accurate +/- 1dB or +/- 2dB frequency responses, 60 degrees off-axis responses, polar responses, impedance curves, distortion data, etc.


There is NO REASON to HIDE these measurements. Utterly no reason. Unless the measurements look like crap - like Zu Audio and Bose speakers.

Philharmonics, Salk, Ascend don't hide their measurements, especially if you literally ASK for them!

A friend of mind sent a message to KEF asking for the FR of the R-series when it was first released because he was interested in buying. KEF actually sent him a FR curve and more. They have no reason to hide the measurements.


Even if the speakers measure like crap like Zu or Bose or Wilson, they can still sound GOOD. They can still sound subjectively good. But perhaps people should not be overzealous and proclaim the "second coming" if the speakers measure that poorly.


The same goes for JTR, Seaton, etc. They can still sound subjectively very good. But unless they have proof like actual measurements, I would never consider them any better than speakers that actually have superb measurements.


What are these builders HIDING ? Why don't they want ANYONE to see the actual measurements? That is the "issue".

 

[lsiberian]

Nothing is like a good thread with passionate argumentation.

I certainly would love to hear some of these speakers. It looks to me like a designer willing to try new things. I suspect the speakers would certainly sound good, but efficiency does typically come at a price. I see nothing wrong with a restocking fee for a good designer.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Pendragon:

Note: FR 1/3 octave smoothing, instead of 1/12th or non-smoothed.

 

[Chu Gai]

I just hung up with Eric on the phone, told him my listening prefernces (90% movies/10% music) and my room layout and size and he recommended the Mini-Lore as fronts, custom made M-Lore bipoles for sorrounds and a custom made sub that go down to 18 hz that will be crossed over at 50 with the M-Lores.

Total cost is around $2,500 which is great for my budget.


Anyway, he could've pushed me to buy the Lore's or even the eNZO's and I wouldve been sucker for it, but he suggested the M-Lores which was a very good surprise for me.

So now, instead of buying a pair of Enzo's for 2K shipped, you're getting a 4.1 for around 2.5K. Let's not forget he wasn't the one doing the pushing on the Enzo. That was you who started this thread, remember? What he's effectively done is to feel you out and get you to drop another 500 or so. That's being a good salesman!

 

[GranteedEV]

1/3rd octave smoothing.