Source or Amplification???

Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
Swth+L
I kind of like the way you put things. Thanks. I just can't agree with some of the stuff. It's like driving a car. I had a Phantera Detamaso in 1974 and once I went from 120-160 mph I had this feeling that I went over the limit and the car was still holding together good, actually I still felt save, on the other hand my Corvette startet floading at 120 mph. To me it's the same felling in audio. I like to push my system till my hair stands up on my neck with no strain.
Having immense amounts of headroom will do that for you.:D I would suggest that in the future that you give a pro amp a try. If you have a preamp that has balanced XLR outputs you'll be all set for connections all you will need is the amplifier. Try the EP2500 out for example, it's inexpensive and it's got a wallop of power. If you decide you like it you can swap out the fan for a quieter one and keep it as a back up or for active duty.:D

I would definitely look forward to hearing your opinion on that amplifier or something similar to it.:)
 
walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
Having immense amounts of headroom will do that for you.:D I would suggest that in the future that you give a pro amp a try. If you have a preamp that has balanced XLR outputs you'll be all set for connections all you will need is the amplifier. Try the EP2500 out for example, it's inexpensive and it's got a wallop of power. If you decide you like it you can swap out the fan for a quieter one and keep it as a back up or for active duty.:D

I would definitely look forward to hearing your opinion on that amplifier or something similar to it.:)
This is a pro amp that I have and I do use XLR connections. Cinepro Amps are Pro-amps. I've had it eleven years.
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_5_1/cinepro3k6.html
 
J

Jason Lopez

Junior Audioholic
Certainly doesn't happen when the comparison is controlled to the extent that you don't know which component is which. It is demonstrated over an over. So, yes, you are just imagining these events with this level of components, period.




If you have speakers that can operate at 120dB spl, more power to you and your hearing is permanently damaged over time, yet you claim articulation? Sorry, why can't I believe that?
PERCEPTION IS REALITY!!! If my senses PERCEIVE that an upgrade has made my system sound better...then who cares about blind tests and levels matched comparisons? If my ears can hear a difference...then that's ALL that matters. Whether it's my imagination or not...i'm enjoying my system more and it's money well spent.
 
walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
PERCEPTION IS REALITY!!! If my senses PERCEIVE that an upgrade has made my system sound better...then who cares about blind tests and levels matched comparisons? If my ears can hear a difference...then that's ALL that matters. Whether it's my imagination or not...i'm enjoying my system more and it's money well spent.
Thanks Jason
I just love my system, it's such a sleeper till you get into the driver seat. It's just pure sonic heaven and beyond. I just love all that power. 350 wattsX6+200 wattsX2, 1000 Sub+400 Watt Sub + 400 Watt Powertowers. I fell like I am going into out of space, it's just great to have all the power at your fingertips. I don't care what anybody thinks or says, nothing like brute force.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
So what is the point of upgrading, upgrading for what, if everything sounds the same, so it is only our imagination. I went from a Rotel Pre-Pro to a B&K Ref S2 I sure can tell the difference. I could also tell the difference when I was using my Onkyo AVR 5.1 as a Pre-Pro. I bought the Rotel without listening to it first, I guess I just liked the looks. The Pre-Out section on the Onkyo AVR was far better then the Rotel. Actualy by thinking that I was upgrading I was realy downgrading. (that's how much worse the Rotel sounded). But all in all there is quiet a significante improvement by using highend components. Like I said bevore IMO, and only mine because there aren't to many people (Idon't think any) that are going to agree with me. By saying that I am half deaf that was just a matter of speech.
I had a Pioneer Elite pre-pro ($1500). It did NOT have a DIRECT mode.

I compared it to a $500 HK 5.1 receiver (DIRECT mode) & my Acurus 200X3/RL11.

The Pioneer sounded worse than both the HK & Acurus.

The HK sounded extremely similar (if not identical) to the Acurus.

I think either the Pioneer was defective or that DSPs/Tones/EQ were used because it did not have a DIRECT mode. I thought I had turned off all the DSPs/Tone/EQ, but I just could not know for sure.

So my question is, did you put the Rotel in Direct mode or did you perhaps used some kind of tone/EQs by accident?
 
walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
I had a Pioneer Elite pre-pro ($1500). It did NOT have a DIRECT mode.

I compared it to a $500 HK 5.1 receiver (DIRECT mode) & my Acurus 200X3/RL11.

The Pioneer sounded worse than both the HK & Acurus.

The HK sounded extremely similar (if not identical) to the Acurus.

I think either the Pioneer was defective or that DSPs/Tones/EQ were used because it did not have a DIRECT mode. I thought I had turned off all the DSPs/Tone/EQ, but I just could not know for sure.

So my question is, did you put the Rotel in Direct mode or did you perhaps used some kind of tone/EQs by accident?
The Rotel 1066 is very simple to operate thers is really not much to it, very limited a features. When I started getting into HD I got a Onkyo AVR 100 wattsx5 high current, maybe 9 years ago then I started adding poweramps, sounded great. Well I wanted to get a pre-pro, so I got a great deal on an Atlantic Technolgy P2000 (rebadged outlaw 950 ) AT makes speakers no Pre-pros or poweramps, little did I know at that time. Kind of liked that little processor a step above the Onkyo pre-outs, maybe because of the flexibility and bass management. I always did like the looks of Rotel and it would blend in with the rest of my system. The Rotel did not even come close in sound (what I call fire) to the P2000 or the Onkyo. Then I went with a B&K Ref 50 S2 and I have accomplished the sound I am looking for. Actually I always liked the sound of Sonus Farber Stradivarius, (which I auditioned with 2 Krell Mono Blocks. I don't have $50k for a pair of them, but I experience the same rush listening to my system as I did when I auditioned the Sonus Farbers. Same High, you know what I mean. I know I have the speakers and the power, it was the processor that was holding me back from my sound achivement goal. Although I can drive my speakers beyond what the Sonus Farbers would hold. At very high power the Farbers kind of start to float or overlap, where mine don't.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
PERCEPTION IS REALITY!!! If my senses PERCEIVE that an upgrade has made my system sound better...then who cares about blind tests and levels matched comparisons? If my ears can hear a difference...then that's ALL that matters. Whether it's my imagination or not...i'm enjoying my system more and it's money well spent.
Perception is reality? Really? The, my perception of a steel pipe placed in a 5 gal bucket of water is that the water bends that pipe and the air straightens it out? Homeopathic meds work then? Psychics are for real? Holistic healing works? All must be real, right?

Your ears don't hear differences. It is a probe, picks up signals in the air. Your brain interprets them. Your brain is very clever in looking for differences even when there is ZERO difference when the same component is repeated and the listener just thinks they are different. If that is reality, then the same receiver is better and no real need to upgrade, would you disagree?

And, if one's imagination is reality, just buy a boombox and off you go imagining greatness, right? Is that how it works?
Perhaps this false reality is a singular reality as it would have no meaning to anyone. Then, how can it be reality?
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
.... On this note I have to gracefully bow out. I have a $3500.00 Cinepro poweramp and a B&K Ref 50 S2 Pre-Pro which I am gona throw out the window, anybody want it? I am gona replace it with a $500.-- AVR. Or maybe an even trade?
Now that would be silly:D Perhaps if you can get good money for them, perhaps. But why bother. just enjoy.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
...Clever marketing from these companies keeps them in business. ....
And many business out there:D
The homeopathic market, the psychic market, holistic healing, all those water claims;) you name it; half the marketplace may be in this category. :D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
... It's like driving a car. ....
No, it is not like driving a car. Many fall into this false parallel comparison. It is easy to test your claims to hear audible difference. Unfortunately I don't think you are ready for that step in evolution.;)
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Sorry Seth=L but I don't think you ever had the Cinepro experience. These amps are hard to beat if at all. These amps will take you beyond sonic heaven.
What is there to beat? Sound quality? Flexibility? Looks?
Sound differences can be tested. My money is the no difference.
 
J

Jason Lopez

Junior Audioholic
Perception is reality? Really? The, my perception of a steel pipe placed in a 5 gal bucket of water is that the water bends that pipe and the air straightens it out? Homeopathic meds work then? Psychics are for real? Holistic healing works? All must be real, right?

Your ears don't hear differences. It is a probe, picks up signals in the air. Your brain interprets them. Your brain is very clever in looking for differences even when there is ZERO difference when the same component is repeated and the listener just thinks they are different. If that is reality, then the same receiver is better and no real need to upgrade, would you disagree?

And, if one's imagination is reality, just buy a boombox and off you go imagining greatness, right? Is that how it works?
Perhaps this false reality is a singular reality as it would have no meaning to anyone. Then, how can it be reality?
Everyone's perception is THEIR OWN reality. Okay...let's say it's my brain and not my ears that's causing me to THINK i'm hearing better sound...the effect to me is...i'm hearing better sound. If the brain is that clever...and can make me believe that my ears are experiencing better sound...then that is MY reality. Fact or fiction. Hence...the upgrade is worth it.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
PERCEPTION IS REALITY!!! If my senses PERCEIVE that an upgrade has made my system sound better...then who cares about blind tests and levels matched comparisons? If my ears can hear a difference...then that's ALL that matters. Whether it's my imagination or not...i'm enjoying my system more and it's money well spent.
So you accept the possibility that getting the Bryston or more power may not make a noticeable difference, but so long as you want it to then you will hear a difference? It would take a person of a not sane mind to decide to "gamble" when the odds are it won't make a real difference other than in your mind over making an upgrade that has REAL advantages that can be physically proven and will make a tremendous impact on the sound quality of your system rather than a possibly small difference caused by changing amplification.

I'm crazy, but I'm not that crazy.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
Thanks Jason
I just love my system, it's such a sleeper till you get into the driver seat. It's just pure sonic heaven and beyond. I just love all that power. 350 wattsX6+200 wattsX2, 1000 Sub+400 Watt Sub + 400 Watt Powertowers. I fell like I am going into out of space, it's just great to have all the power at your fingertips. I don't care what anybody thinks or says, nothing like brute force.
You want to know what's changed in amplifier technology to make it potentially better than amplifiers of the classic design such as your Cinepro?...efficiency. Taking less input wattage to achieve more total output through new amplifier topologies.

I'm not a very car savvy person, but I would like to use this auto comparison (a vague but clear one) to illustrate what I mean. Think of the biggest baddest muscle car that you've drooled over for it's brute power, bold looks, and top notch construction eons beyond it's time. Have an image of that muscly machine inside your head?..good. Now fast forward to now. I seem to recall a recent discussion surrounding Ferrai where they have plans to unleash a new line of efficient super cars. Using lighter materials and new technology in aerodynamics they can make a car that goes faster and uses less fuel than that sexy american muscle. The muscle car will always hold a special place in your heart, and in all our hearts. The unfortunate business concerning automobiles is that Toyota doesn't get to use Ferrai's old designs when the patents run out (if there are even patents for such things, I don't know cars) to come up with a cost effective way to mass produce such a thing. Electronics are cool that in the regard that when someone comes up with a truly innovating method of amplification that pretty much anybody can get on board and start rolling with it.

There are a lot of classic audio components I have in my own collection I will never give up, even if their performance is not comparable to what's out there in the current market. I'm not saying ditch your Cinepro by any means, it's still an outstanding piece of equipment. I've got nothing that compares to it and currently I don't need anything that compares to it. I enjoy stuff like that as much as the next guy.

When someone has a budget like the OPs I suggest the most effective way to use those funds, and spending it on something that is either a minuscule or completely irrelevant transfer seems like a crazy thing to do.

Would anyone disagree that room acoustics and/or the speakers are the most significant parts of an audio system? Would anyone disagree that the best chance to advance this system on a notable to highly significant level should be addressed by looking into acoustics and/ or speaker upgrades? I find it hard to believe that anyone would place so much importance on "what brand" of power we are using, because that's pretty much all that would be changed and possibly the perception of the user. No signicant audible advantage could be had from upgrading to another sub-100wpc integrated amplifier, and upgrading to more power would only be significant for higher output.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
Everyone's perception is THEIR OWN reality. Okay...let's say it's my brain and not my ears that's causing me to THINK i'm hearing better sound...the effect to me is...i'm hearing better sound. If the brain is that clever...and can make me believe that my ears are experiencing better sound...then that is MY reality. Fact or fiction. Hence...the upgrade is worth it.
Just pretend heavily that you made that upgrade, you can still perceive better sound.;) If this is truly your argument then I guess I really can't help you. You asked a question about improving the SQ of your sound system, you didn't ask "if a tree falls in the forest and no people are around to hear it, does it make a sound?". I answered your underlying question with the best possible solution, I'm sorry it wasn't the one you where looking for. Since you already had the answer then I suppose asking it was purely for your satisfaction and I can understand that as well.

Wanting to be reasurred by fellow audio junkies is part of this hobby, unless your name is Ashley (DolbyCP-2000) and you have JBL Control 1s mounted in your doorway to add to the sensation of surround sound. People like Ashley clearly don't care what anyone else thinks about their system, but they are still proud of it for some reason.:confused:
 
J

Jason Lopez

Junior Audioholic
You want to know what's changed in amplifier technology to make it potentially better than amplifiers of the classic design such as your Cinepro?...efficiency. Taking less input wattage to achieve more total output through new amplifier topologies.

I'm not a very car savvy person, but I would like to use this auto comparison (a vague but clear one) to illustrate what I mean. Think of the biggest baddest muscle car that you've drooled over for it's brute power, bold looks, and top notch construction eons beyond it's time. Have an image of that muscly machine inside your head?..good. Now fast forward to now. I seem to recall a recent discussion surrounding Ferrai where they have plans to unleash a new line of efficient super cars. Using lighter materials and new technology in aerodynamics they can make a car that goes faster and uses less fuel than that sexy american muscle. The muscle car will always hold a special place in your heart, and in all our hearts. The unfortunate business concerning automobiles is that Toyota doesn't get to use Ferrai's old designs when the patents run out (if there are even patents for such things, I don't know cars) to come up with a cost effective way to mass produce such a thing. Electronics are cool that in the regard that when someone comes up with a truly innovating method of amplification that pretty much anybody can get on board and start rolling with it.

There are a lot of classic audio components I have in my own collection I will never give up, even if their performance is not comparable to what's out there in the current market. I'm not saying ditch your Cinepro by any means, it's still an outstanding piece of equipment. I've got nothing that compares to it and currently I don't need anything that compares to it. I enjoy stuff like that as much as the next guy.

When someone has a budget like the OPs I suggest the most effective way to use those funds, and spending it on something that is either a minuscule or completely irrelevant transfer seems like a crazy thing to do.

Would anyone disagree that room acoustics and/or the speakers are the most significant parts of an audio system? Would anyone disagree that the best chance to advance this system on a notable to highly significant level should be addressed by looking into acoustics and/ or speaker upgrades? I find it hard to believe that anyone would place so much importance on "what brand of power we are using, because that's pretty much all that would be changed and possibly the perception of the user. No signicant audible advantage could be had from upgrading to another sub-100wpc integrated amplifier, and upgrading to more power would only be significant for higher output.
"

So...higher quality internal parts, designs that elliminate cross talk...like dual mono construction, independant power supplies, heavily shielded pre-amp/power amp sections, short signal paths, class A pre-amps, damping factors, and high current torrodial transformers have nothing to do with what gets passed along to the speakers? Hard to believe!
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
"

So...higher quality internal parts, designs that elliminate cross talk...like dual mono construction, independant power supplies, heavily shielded pre-amp/power amp sections, short signal paths, class A pre-amps, damping factors, and high current torrodial transformers have nothing to do with what gets passed along to the speakers? Hard to believe!
I never said there's no difference between amplifiers on a technical scale, just that in most cases the audible differences are negligible. What you are suggesting is that you spend money on something that may make a small difference. I was suggesting something that will definitely, not maybe, definitely make a improvement. Adding acoustic room treatments will definitely make your system sound better if the treatments are implemented properly and if your speakers are positioned correctly.
 
Last edited:
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
I think we've had some good discussion here. Not everyone will be convinced, but that's fine. Let's leave this thread and topic be for a while.

It is best summed up with the 2 positions.

Amps make little difference in sound usually based on double blind scientific testing.

Amps make a difference in sound based on open eyed subjective testing.

Some prefer subjectivity over objectivity as objectivity isn't the end all or be all I will allow them that freedom. :)
 

Latest posts

newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top