Source or Amplification???

[walter duque]

[

QUOTE=Jason Lopez;589153]So...what's your baseline? At what level do YOU say...anything beyond this point is not better sound quality?

[/QUOTE]
Yes it is. The difference is between Loud and Articulate. Anything cranks. Sound is fuller and more detailed, thighter bass and faster response etc. Now this is just MO.

 

[Jason Lopez]

The point is it's a mental difference not a measurable difference in most cases.

You're talking about 2 solid state amps for crying out loud. The only difference between them was the slight improvement in volume.

Level matched and direct their is no difference between most amps. In fact many companies use the same amps in their receivers. Double blind tests have shown this to be the case.

If you want an external amp I suggest you use an EQ with it otherwise you are wasting your energy and time. With an EQ you can make a better sound though.

Is is safe to say that two INTEGRATED amps could sound different from eachother because of their pre-amp section? If so..then that puts a different spin on choosing brand (A) over brand (B)....and different price points.

 

[Seth=L]

Is is safe to say that two INTEGRATED amps could sound different from eachother because of their pre-amp section? If so..then that puts a different spin on choosing brand (A) over brand (B)....and different price points.

Not in most cases. Designing and manufacturing Preamps, amplifiers, DACs is childsplay for these companies, unless they outsource to some OEM manufacturer and the OEMs are generally down pat when it comes to that territory. Speakers and room acoustics are harder to predict because every person is different as is every room.

 

[Jason Lopez]

Not in most cases. Designing and manufacturing Preamps, amplifiers, DACs is childsplay for these companies, unless they outsource to some OEM manufacturer and the OEMs are generally down pat when it comes to that territory. Speakers and room acoustics are harder to predict because every person is different as is every room.

HMMM...very interesting! Thanks.

 

[lsiberian]

Is is safe to say that two INTEGRATED amps could sound different from eachother because of their pre-amp section? If so..then that puts a different spin on choosing brand (A) over brand (B)....and different price points.

Not really. The differences are so small they just aren't important. I'm an engineer and as such I believe in putting your effort into the places with the greatest actual differences.

My guide for choosing amplification is largely based on brand reliability, User comfort, and aesthetics. Features come in second because most folks find little use for many features.

This is why I require anyone to at least demo the receiver brand in store somewhere if possible before making a selection.

The arguments for external amplification are interesting. But if we as men are honest with ourselves it's purely psychological in most cases. The idea of greater dynamics is an interesting argument, but holds little validity in practice. I base this off my own understanding of SPL and it's relation to power. A 60 watt increase in power from a 140 watt amp gains very little headroom and is usually not worth the additional cost in amplification. Especially at the sacrifice of room treatments and better speakers.

Now looks and build quality are excellent reasons to purchase an external amp IMO. Having seen the quality of the Emotiva interior/exterior. I would most certainly find a place for one in my home. It's truly a beautiful piece of electronics. Woman have flowers. Ahers have audio equipment. If Emotiva ever releases a pre-pro I might just pick it up.

Now for a pure power gain you will really need to go pro-amp and mimmick Wmax's setup. He's the measurable difference man. I like the Yamaha amps due to their lack of fan noise.

 

[mtrycrafts]

So...what's your baseline? At what level do YOU say...anything beyond this point is not better sound quality?

There is not a $ point for any of this stuff.
I would suggest you read post #5 at this link as an example, the famous Steve Zipser amp DBT:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.opinion/browse_frm/thread/664b8681ab141263?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&rnum=1&prev=/groups?q=sunshine+stereo+yamaha+abx+nousaine&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=501fl6%24ac3%40oxy.rust.net&rnum=1

A $300 Yamaha integrated against a pair of $15k Pass Aleph 1.2 monobloks
3 Golden ears could not differentiate them apart.

The amp has to be designed euphonic, driven beyond its design limits, have a high output impedance that would cause the amp to mimic the speaker's frequency response, and, of course, the most important aspect of the comparison differences, not levels matched or under DBT protocol.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I'm not trying to be smart. This is a valid question. How have so many high end manufacturers been able to stay in business for 10, 20, 30 years...if their mega dollar products don't sound any better than $500 or $600 products?

The same way the psychics are in business, the peddlers of homeopathic medicines or holistic healers are in business and most of the vitamin peddlers as well, for that matter. Just a small sampling.

Oh, don't forget, testimonials from anyone seem to sell Marketing and the famous Barnum Principle

 

[mtrycrafts]

... Sound isnt the reason for the additional cost in more expensive amps.

May want to ask those hi-end makers about that And their customers

 

[mtrycrafts]

[

.... Now this is just MO.[/QUOTE]

Yes, that is certainly allowed

 

[walter duque]

.... Now this is just MO.

Yes, that is certainly allowed

[/QUOTE]
Not to sound smart, now please don't get me wrong, I can tell the difference between 200 watts and 350 watts and I am half deaf. From what I am reading on these forums is that there is no noticible difference in sound between a $500.00 AVR or a top notch Pre-Pro and a highpowerd amp. To me that means we are wasting our money on this equipment, there is no audible difference. Am I correct?

 

[lsiberian]

Not to sound smart, now please don't get me wrong, I can tell the difference between 200 watts and 350 watts and I am half deaf. From what I am reading on these forums is that there is no noticible difference in sound between a $500.00 AVR or a top notch Pre-Pro and a highpowerd amp. To me that means we are wasting our money on this equipment, there is no audible difference. Am I correct?[/QUOTE]


Essentially most speakers move air by using a cone. that rapidly accelerates the air in front of it. causing a wave to be produced around the cone area. To get a speaker to move further our becomes more difficult as you get it moving further away. Eventually the returns diminish dramatically.

a doubling of wattage leads to a 3db increase in spl. This is considered the first point when the difference is clearly detectable. 1db it is detectable, but a significant difference occurs at the 3db point.

IOTW 200w to 350w doesn't produce a significant increase in volume.
While 200 to 400w does.

Of course there aren't a lot of drivers capable of taking 350watts anyway. Most are subs.

In many ways one could compare it to driving speeds. It takes a few miles an hour increase to notice a difference in a car, but as you approach the 100s the differences are far less noticeable and less significant in real world non racing applications.

 

[walter duque]

IOTW 200w to 350w doesn't produce a significant increase in volume.
While 200 to 400w does.

It's not the volume I am talking about it's the articulation.

Of course there aren't a lot of drivers capable of taking 350watts anyway. Most are subs.

I blew one tweeter on the last 12 years because of overdriving the amp on New Years Eve after to many Heinekens. I play my system at times above 120db, so the speakers have to be able to take somekind of high wattage. My center is bi-amped at with 350X2. Most of my drivers in my system are rated to around 400 Watts except the center is rated at 220 Watts. This is clean power with around 3db of headroom.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So anyway, how is your sound quality just the way it is without any changes?

Are you having that upgraditis itch?

According to The Audio Critic , amplifiers, preamps, CD players, DACs all sound the same unless you have something defective or inadequate.

Processors will sound differently, but only due to the DSPs, Room EQs, Tones, Dynamic EQs, etc.

So just like what everyone else has said, the biggest difference will be the speakers.

First, turn off all EQs, Tones, DSPs -- make sure you are listening in Direct Mode.

Buy 4 acoustic sound panels for your room. If they don't improve your sound even a tiny bit, then don't worry about it.

Then go audtion difference speakers to see if they sound better than your speakers. If they don't, then don't worry about it.

 

[mtrycrafts]

It's not the volume I am talking about it's the articulation.

Certainly doesn't happen when the comparison is controlled to the extent that you don't know which component is which. It is demonstrated over an over. So, yes, you are just imagining these events with this level of components, period.

I play my system at times above 120db, so the speakers have to be able to take somekind of high wattage. My center is bi-amped at with 350X2. Most of my drivers in my system are rated to around 400 Watts except the center is rated at 220 Watts. This is clean power with around 3db of headroom.

If you have speakers that can operate at 120dB spl, more power to you and your hearing is permanently damaged over time, yet you claim articulation? Sorry, why can't I believe that?

 

[mtrycrafts]

Not to sound smart, now please don't get me wrong, I can tell the difference between 200 watts and 350 watts and I am half deaf. From what I am reading on these forums is that there is no noticible difference in sound between a $500.00 AVR or a top notch Pre-Pro and a highpowerd amp. To me that means we are wasting our money on this equipment, there is no audible difference. Am I correct?

Well, it is like this. Unless you compared components, levels matched to .1dB spl with a volt meter, DBT, don't clip the amps, drive them beyond their design limits, then you are correct. So far, it seems you had no such controls on your comparisons, just like most any such comparison.

 

[walter duque]

Certainly doesn't happen when the comparison is controlled to the extent that you don't know which component is which. It is demonstrated over an over. So, yes, you are just imagining these events with this level of components, period.
If you have speakers that can operate at 120dB spl, more power to you and your hearing is permanently damaged over time, yet you claim articulation? Sorry, why can't I believe that?

So what is the point of upgrading, upgrading for what, if everything sounds the same, so it is only our imagination. I went from a Rotel Pre-Pro to a B&K Ref S2 I sure can tell the difference. I could also tell the difference when I was using my Onkyo AVR 5.1 as a Pre-Pro. I bought the Rotel without listening to it first, I guess I just liked the looks. The Pre-Out section on the Onkyo AVR was far better then the Rotel. Actualy by thinking that I was upgrading I was realy downgrading. (that's how much worse the Rotel sounded). But all in all there is quiet a significante improvement by using highend components. Like I said bevore IMO, and only mine because there aren't to many people (Idon't think any) that are going to agree with me. By saying that I am half deaf that was just a matter of speech.

 

[mtrycrafts]

So what is the point of upgrading, upgrading for what, if everything sounds the same, so it is only our imagination. I went from a Rotel Pre-Pro to a B&K Ref S2 I sure can tell the difference. I could also tell the difference when I was using my Onkyo AVR 5.1 as a Pre-Pro. I bought the Rotel without listening to it first, I guess I just liked the looks. The Pre-Out section on the Onkyo AVR was far better then the Rotel. Actualy by thinking that I was upgrading I was realy downgrading. (that's how much worse the Rotel sounded). But all in all there is quiet a significante improvement by using highend components. Like I said bevore IMO, and only mine because there aren't to many people (Idon't think any) that are going to agree with me. By saying that I am half deaf that was just a matter of speech.

Well, over the years we went from a 2 channel audio system to multi channel to 7.1 with audio codecs evolving over time. So, at many of those jump off points it was a reason to upgrade.
Then, some speakers get better, may need a different power supply or not.
Some have developed different needs over the years. Some upgrade CD or DVD players so it will play multiple disc without reloading.
So, there can be may reasons for upgrades. As to sound, the only thing pretty much to conquer is the room and the speaker.
Then you mention looks; another great reason to upgrade.
As to sonic differentiation, what I mentioned stands, unfortunately. The only way to differentiate is under those conditions; anything short of that is totally biased and unreliable. This is not me speaking but what the research shows us.

 

[walter duque]

Well, over the years we went from a 2 channel audio system to multi channel to 7.1 with audio codecs evolving over time. So, at many of those jump off points it was a reason to upgrade.
Then, some speakers get better, may need a different power supply or not.
Some have developed different needs over the years. Some upgrade CD or DVD players so it will play multiple disc without reloading.
So, there can be may reasons for upgrades. As to sound, the only thing pretty much to conquer is the room and the speaker.
Then you mention looks; another great reason to upgrade.
As to sonic differentiation, what I mentioned stands, unfortunately. The only way to differentiate is under those conditions; anything short of that is totally biased and unreliable. This is not me speaking but what the research shows us.

Looks like I have to bow out of this one grace fully, because on the thread for speaker spikes I got myself into a little trouble. Not to get of the subject: I sold a friend of mine a pair of Vandersteen 3A which I unhooked from my Onkyo AVR and hooked it up to his identical Onkyo AVR. We bought them both at the same time. After hooking up the speakers we looked at each other and "said something ain't right here". Well to make a long story short when we moved the speakers I removed the spikes. Put the spikes back on and they sounded great. I didn't get anywhere on that tread either. No difference with speaker spikes, no difference with more power or better souce. On this note I have to gracefully bow out. I have a $3500.00 Cinepro poweramp and a B&K Ref 50 S2 Pre-Pro which I am gona throw out the window, anybody want it? I am gona replace it with a $500.-- AVR. Or maybe an even trade?

 

[Seth=L]

Walter, it's possible the Rotel was somehow defective. If I remember correctly some of Rotel's stuff was outsourced anyway.

I remember I went to an audio video store with my dad once and we where listening to some Theil speakers if I remember correctly. They played these relatively easy to drive speakers with a high end Denon receiver for a song and I asked the dealer to switch over to a Sony ES receiver (STR-DA1000ES) to listen to the same song. After only a few moments my dad whispered into my ear that the Sony sounded much worse than the Denon, he said the bass was too emphasized and that the highs lacked control. I nodded my head and we left the room.

My dad has worked in a factory for more than 20 years with high amounts of noise and he's hearing is not what it used to be and hasn't been for a long time. He's still somewhat passionate about audio and loves to listen to music and watch movies. To this day I never told him that I wasn't able to hear a difference between those two receivers, but at the time I just figured he was hearing something I couldn't. A few years later I learned a few things by being here at Audioholics, and going through a lot of audio gear and doing a bit of my own tests. If you go back to the first days of my posting here I defended audible differences between CD players, amplifiers, receivers, preamps, and other things which I can honestly say is mostly hokey.

Clever marketing from these companies keeps them in business. They thrive on capatilism to extreme levels that keep people guessing and buying each other's products. Could you imagine how diminishing audio sales would be if everyone thought that all receivers sounded the same and they wouldn't only have to spend more to get the better features and power? These companies would have to compete in an entirely different way but essentially they'd be putting themselves out in the cold and countless companies would just go out of business. I personally like the variety and good competition gives people, millions of people, jobs.

Since I know better I will not spend the money I earn on frivilous and exorbantly expensive voodoo from audio companies, I just can't bring myself to do it as pretty as their stuff is or as stout of a warranty they may have.

 

[walter duque]

Swth+L
I kind of like the way you put things. Thanks. I just can't agree with some of the stuff. It's like driving a car. I had a Phantera Detamaso in 1974 and once I went from 120-160 mph I had this feeling that I went over the limit and the car was still holding together good, actually I still felt save, on the other hand my Corvette startet floading at 120 mph. To me it's the same felling in audio. I like to push my system till my hair stands up on my neck with no strain.