Simaudio Moon CP-8 AV Processor: A Denon Receiver in Sim Clothing?

A

AV_Nut

Junior Audioholic
Well, thanks for being insulting. Actually, Blue Jeans Cable is the only brand in the world to use bonded pairs for high impedance stability and low skew -- that's technology you can measure, and we see it when we look at bonded pair Cat 6 and 6a data pairs as well as in the long certification lengths for our HDMI cables. Far from being a "$3 cable," our bulk HDMI cable is (I'm reasonably sure) the costliest HDMI cable stock in the world to manufacture as well as being the only stock that is US-made. Belden can't sell it to anyone else, because nobody wants the cost bite; we take the cost bite and still turn the cable around to the consumer much cheaper than boutique brands that don't have the technology, and that just rely on Chinese manufacture, do.

Now, I don't know how well the WW people have been able to control skew and impedance stability using this four-conductor design but I can tell you that such an approach is fraught with difficulties as it introduces new considerations into the already difficult problem of dimensional control. I can't find any published specs on their cable so I don't know what they claim; and I have found that it's chancy to rely upon people's published specs in the absence of test data to confirm. I can tell you, having been involved in some of these R&D projects (why do you assume we haven't? For crying out loud, a lot of R&D both on our part and Belden's went into bonded-pair HDMI.), that the translation of a theoretical spec to a working, manufactured cable that exhibits the specs projected for it is really tough. I would not want to have to do that with a Chinese wire factory. Every aspect of production becomes critical when you get up into the multi-Gigabit range.

Now, "speed." I have no idea what you mean. You don't want a foamed dielectric, which will increase propagation speed, because at these frequencies and in a paired-cable configuration the dimensional and foaming characteristics are really, really hard to control and you tend to get return loss spikes way up in the high frequencies. If what you mean is not propagation speed but data rate, the fact is that still today there is no specification for cable carrying data rates over 10.2 Gbps (three channels at 3.4 Gbps summed). The pass criteria change from Category 1 to Category 2 HDMI cable, and if higher data rates were to be tested there would likely be a Category 3 spec. This is a complicated issue, but the gist of it is that HDMI Licensing has set the 2.0 spec to employ Category 2 cable even at the higher data rates which exceed Category 2 testing, and they've created an S-parameter model they call the "Worst Cable Emulator" against which sources and sinks will be tested. The point is, at any rate, that there simply are no specs for higher data rates other than the Category 2 spec, and a Category 2 cable should pass all signals error-free under any existing HDMI spec version, including 2.0.

The result is of course that anybody can claim that he has a "28 Gbps HDMI cable." The term has no definition; nobody that has used that sort of term (and there have been several) has ever attempted, in my experience, to define what they mean by it; all cables will pass SOMETHING at 28 Gbps, and the only question is how well. To know how well is good enough, you've got to have a spec which integrates sources, sinks and cables. What I am quite sure of is that bonded pairs perform better than conventional pairs as we get up into the crazy-high bitrates. You can see it at 250 MHz (equivalent, in HDMI terms, to 500Mbps/pair, 1.5 Gbps total) on Cat 6 cable, well short of high-def HDMI frequencies.

All of this about "jitter": Well, jitter's a problem in digital signaling, for sure. In fact, when you go sticking extra conductors into the pair, you're liable to have considerably greater difficulty with intrapair skew, which really throws a wrench into the jitter problem because the two sides of the differential signal are arriving out of time; picoseconds matter here. But what must be understood about jitter is that it is a problem which arises BEFORE the receiving circuit, and if the receiving circuit is able to fully recover the data, it does not matter at all how good or how bad the jitter was. The bits come out the same, and it is indeed "all ones and zeros." Now, if you get bit errors due to jitter, of course, that's another story--you've got data loss, and as HDMI has no way of correcting the error that can easily be visible or audible.

Now, audio is not carried separately on HDMI cables, as many people think (except ARC audio, going back from a TV to a receiver). It's embedded in the video data stream. The result is that audio depends exactly, and only, on the same data stream upon which video depends. You can have a cable deliver perfect video, and if it does, it will deliver perfect audio. If a cable delivers bad video, it will deliver bad audio. The two ride together and the principles governing fidelity for the one are the same as for the other.

There's always going to be a lot of hucksterism where cable is concerned, and the dry and dull features of a well-engineered product are always going to sound less exciting than the extravagant claims associated with boutique products. To understand what's true, you've got to have a detailed appreciation of this stuff at the technical level.

Kurt
Blue Jeans Cable
Kurt. I meant you no disrespect. R&D costs a lot of $$'s. I "assumed" (you know what they say about assuming) that you are not going to get your costs out of a $20 wire. That said, I have never heard your HDMI cable. But I will say Audio Quest, Monster, and three other spendy HDMI cables added zero value to our ears. They had a great story.

You obviously know a great deal more on the topic than I. That doesn't change what I hear. Re: video quality tied together with audio. I assumed if I don't see pixels flickering, the video is equal. True or not? Hence, I said I see no difference because that was the only thing I was looking for.

Are you saying "all HDMI cables sound the same?" I just want to be clear. Because there is positively no doubt in mind it was the clearly (pun intended) the best sound cable that we tested. All the others sounded the same to me.
 
A

AV_Nut

Junior Audioholic
Maybe not Tom N but how about the designer of the QSC comparator? What does he say?
The QSC manual says "in order to prove amps sound better, you 1st need to verify you hear a difference".
 
K

KurtBJC

Audioholic
Are you saying "all HDMI cables sound the same?" I just want to be clear. Because there is positively no doubt in mind it was the clearly (pun intended) the best sound cable that we tested. All the others sounded the same to me.
There is always the possibility of video deterioration being sub-threshold while audio deterioration is not, and that depends upon how the video gets handled by the display (and can depend on things like scaling). But when the data recovery is 100%, yes, all HDMI cables will sound the same.
 
A

AV_Nut

Junior Audioholic
There is always the possibility of video deterioration being sub-threshold while audio deterioration is not, and that depends upon how the video gets handled by the display (and can depend on things like scaling). But when the data recovery is 100%, yes, all HDMI cables will sound the same.
That makes complete sense. So the question is, are there "data recovery problems" in any known 2010-2012 designed products? If so, will one HDMI cable methodology that does a better job of controling low skew and better impedance stability be superior to the eye or ear in any way? I'm taking about a 1 meter cable from a DVD player to a preamp processor (not to a display). Putting it another way, why would it be advantageous to spend $20 on your cable versus a $6 Monoprice if all HDMI cables sound the same (I wrote this last statement because I know I will get a detailed response). :)
 
R

randyb

Full Audioholic
The QSC manual says "in order to prove amps sound better, you 1st need to verify you hear a difference".
I believe bob lee of QSC was pretty much on tom n and David Clark's side of things.
 
RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
That makes complete sense. So the question is, are there "data recovery problems" in any known 2010-2012 designed products? If so, will one HDMI cable methodology that does a better job of controling low skew and better impedance stability be superior to the eye or ear in any way? I'm taking about a 1 meter cable from a DVD player to a preamp processor (not to a display). Putting it another way, why would it be advantageous to spend $20 on your cable versus a $6 Monoprice if all HDMI cables sound the same (I wrote this last statement because I know I will get a detailed response). :)
I have detected no ill effects from using the Monoprice Redmere HDMI cables and I no longer have to worry about the cables ripping the connectors off the preamps input board. That is a different type of stress relief ;)

- Rich
 
A

AV_Nut

Junior Audioholic
I believe bob lee of QSC was pretty much on tom n and David Clark's side of things.
He is an engineer at QSC. Possibly a product engineer. I am fairly confident he didn't design the ABX box. I can point you to other designers who think the same as Bob Lee. Most are convinced they sound different while others think they sound the same. But that doesn't matter. Either they sounds different or they sound the same. One camp is right and one is wrong. It cannot be both ways.

I think you were talking about Richard Clark (car audio guy). During my research, I spoke with him on the phone for an hour. He too wasn't as convinced as he thought. I shook him a little when we talked about some details that I have learned. I heard it in his voice.

As I said, until a reviewer "comes out of the closet" and proves them wrong via an DBT, both camps viewpoint will be convinced they are right. Like religion, they will argue at for years. What I have learned after talking with Tom N, is he is NOT so convinced. Kind of like an atheist on a forum trying to convince someone they are wrong. They actually (IMHO) are reaching out for someone to prove they are wrong. That's just my theory..
 
Last edited:
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
He is an engineer at QSC. Possibly a product engineer. I am fairly confident he didn't design the ABX box. I can point you to other designers who think the same as Bob Lee. Most are convinced they sound different while others think they sound the same. But that doesn't matter. Either they sounds different or they sound the same. One camp is right and one is wrong. It cannot be both ways.

I think you were talking about Richard Clark (car audio guy). During my research, I spoke with him on the phone for an hour. He too wasn't as convinced as he thought. I shook him a little when we talked about some details that I have learned. I heard it in his voice.

As I said, until a reviewer "comes out of the closet" and proves them wrong via an DBT, both camps viewpoint will be convinced they are right. Like religion, they will argue at for years. What I have learned after talking with Tom N, is he is NOT so convinced. Kind of like an atheist on a forum trying to convince someone they are wrong. They actually (IMHO) are reaching out for someone to prove they are wrong. That's just my theory..
Bob Lee famously quoted: If your amp sounds different then either it's broken or an audiophile amp.
 
R

randyb

Full Audioholic
He is an engineer at QSC. Possibly a product engineer. I am fairly confident he didn't design the ABX box. I can point you to other designers who think the same as Bob Lee. Most are convinced they sound different while others think they sound the same. But that doesn't matter. Either they sounds different or they sound the same. One camp is right and one is wrong. It cannot be both ways.

I think you were talking about Richard Clark (car audio guy). During my research, I spoke with him on the phone for an hour. He too wasn't as convinced as he thought. I shook him a little when we talked about some details that I have learned. I heard it in his voice.

As I said, until a reviewer "comes out of the closet" and proves them wrong via an DBT, both camps viewpoint will be convinced they are right. Like religion, they will argue at for years. What I have learned after talking with Tom N, is he is NOT so convinced. Kind of like an atheist on a forum trying to convince someone they are wrong. They actually (IMHO) are reaching out for someone to prove they are wrong. That's just my theory..
i wrote him to see who developed it. Fwiw, tom n is a friend. He certainly is not the only one in that audio group having David Clark's views. They don't say all amps sound the same..not that simple. There are some pretty smart guys in that Detroit audio group. It is worth watching some of their meetings on the web..


I am not talking about Richard Clark Dave Clark is the one that did some of the early abx trials on amps written up in the old Audio magazine. I am surprised you didn't know of him.

http://webpages.charter.net/fryguy/Amp_Sound.pdf
 
Last edited:
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
That makes complete sense. So the question is, are there "data recovery problems" in any known 2010-2012 designed products? If so, will one HDMI cable methodology that does a better job of controling low skew and better impedance stability be superior to the eye or ear in any way? I'm taking about a 1 meter cable from a DVD player to a preamp processor (not to a display). Putting it another way, why would it be advantageous to spend $20 on your cable versus a $6 Monoprice if all HDMI cables sound the same (I wrote this last statement because I know I will get a detailed response). :)
At one meter pretty much any HDMI cable will suffice for up to the max resolution Blu-ray has to offer. It's when you start going more than a few meters at high resolution that things like Kurt is talking about separates the good from bad in HDMI cables. Again if there is no video artifacting or audio dropouts, ALL of the cables will sound the same. Fact NOT opinion.
 
K

KurtBJC

Audioholic
That makes complete sense. So the question is, are there "data recovery problems" in any known 2010-2012 designed products? If so, will one HDMI cable methodology that does a better job of controling low skew and better impedance stability be superior to the eye or ear in any way? I'm taking about a 1 meter cable from a DVD player to a preamp processor (not to a display). Putting it another way, why would it be advantageous to spend $20 on your cable versus a $6 Monoprice if all HDMI cables sound the same (I wrote this last statement because I know I will get a detailed response). :)
Well, you can only judge a data recovery problem by the result in a specific application, and one of the tricky bits with HDMI is that nobody goes around reporting bit errors in a way that the user can verify and count. At short lengths, barring incompetent manufacture (and I have seen some of that in this market sometimes), everything's going to be the same. What a better cable like ours gives you is (1) a degree of future-proofing--the bandwidth capabilities are better and so may well accommodate future standards, (2) more headroom -- because while every device that bears an HDMI logo is supposed to meet spec, one can never be completely certain, and (3) better behavior when the cable isn't the whole data channel. That last point comes up a lot in theater installations -- if your short patch cord is running to a wallplate, into another cable and through the wall, to another wallplate and another patch cable, then the fact that a cable works, when it comprises the whole data channel, does not mean it is good enough to be a link in this chain.

And yeah, we're aware of the low-price market, too, and we have a separate brand name for that: Tartan Cable. Our Tartan HDMI cables are, like everyone else's, Chinese-made and (like Monoprice's, but not like most Chinese cables) inexpensive.

We aren't big-margin people; the boutique places are very much so, and people often assume we are like that, but our prices actually reflect, more than any other consideration, what it costs us to make the product. You can see that on our domestically-manufactured cables made using stock parts -- anybody can make a digital audio cable with a run of Belden 1694A and Canare RCAs, and the price you'd pay for those materials if you ran out and bought them for yourself isn't much higher than what we pay. That's our model -- if we priced this stuff higher, we'd miss out on all of the professional business, like SDI cable assemblies, where there are other assembly houses that do them. We have a reputation for telling the truth, too, which is another thing we could discard only at the cost of losing all of our professional-side business (and all the consumer-side referrals we get from professionals).

Bonded pair HDMI is hideously expensive to make. Not only do we pay more for the cable than anyone else does, but we can't terminate it in the US so we have to aggregate it here in Seattle, ship it out to a high-quality assembly house in China, and then ship it back. Our supply chain is therefore months longer than for Chinese cable, our costs are higher at virtually every stage and are mostly paid well before we have salable inventory, and so we have a huge amount of money tied up in the chain and an obligation to maintain very deep stocks if we don't want to be constantly running out of it. These considerations are why nobody else will do it--but there really is no other technology that offers the impedance stability benefits that bonded pairs do.

Kurt
Blue Jeans Cable

Edit: what Gene said above is true, too. You're much more likely to start to see troubles as lengths increase. Our certifications are longer than those I've seen from anyone else for same-gauge cable. Our 28 AWG HDMI is very, very close to passing the Category 2 test at 20 feet, which is unheard of for passive cable of that gauge. The longer you go, the more critical everything becomes--interpair skew is big there (as is, still, intrapair skew) because the video channels can only get so far out of time with one another without causing trouble.
 
A

AV_Nut

Junior Audioholic
i wrote him to see who developed it. Fwiw, tom n is a friend. He certainly is not the only one in that audio group having David Clark's views. They don't say all amps sound the same..not that simple. There are some pretty smart guys in that Detroit audio group. It is worth watching some of their meetings on the web..


I am not talking about Richard Clark Dave Clark is the one that did some of the early abx trials on amps written up in the old Audio magazine. I am surprised you didn't know of him.

http://webpages.charter.net/fryguy/Amp_Sound.pdf
Hi Randy,

Tom is a very nice guy. He is a lot less vocal in person than his typed words. I see why you are friends. :)

I am not so sure it matters who did the design. It works extremely well!

I was focused on the last name Clark (thinking Richard and his $10,000 challenge). Yes, I have read about David Clark (but never talked or met with him).
 
A

AV_Nut

Junior Audioholic
Well, you can only judge a data recovery problem by the result in a specific application, and one of the tricky bits with HDMI is that nobody goes around reporting bit errors in a way that the user can verify and count. At short lengths, barring incompetent manufacture (and I have seen some of that in this market sometimes), everything's going to be the same. What a better cable like ours gives you is (1) a degree of future-proofing--the bandwidth capabilities are better and so may well accommodate future standards, (2) more headroom -- because while every device that bears an HDMI logo is supposed to meet spec, one can never be completely certain, and (3) better behavior when the cable isn't the whole data channel. That last point comes up a lot in theater installations -- if your short patch cord is running to a wallplate, into another cable and through the wall, to another wallplate and another patch cable, then the fact that a cable works, when it comprises the whole data channel, does not mean it is good enough to be a link in this chain.

And yeah, we're aware of the low-price market, too, and we have a separate brand name for that: Tartan Cable. Our Tartan HDMI cables are, like everyone else's, Chinese-made and (like Monoprice's, but not like most Chinese cables) inexpensive.

We aren't big-margin people; the boutique places are very much so, and people often assume we are like that, but our prices actually reflect, more than any other consideration, what it costs us to make the product. You can see that on our domestically-manufactured cables made using stock parts -- anybody can make a digital audio cable with a run of Belden 1694A and Canare RCAs, and the price you'd pay for those materials if you ran out and bought them for yourself isn't much higher than what we pay. That's our model -- if we priced this stuff higher, we'd miss out on all of the professional business, like SDI cable assemblies, where there are other assembly houses that do them. We have a reputation for telling the truth, too, which is another thing we could discard only at the cost of losing all of our professional-side business (and all the consumer-side referrals we get from professionals).

Bonded pair HDMI is hideously expensive to make. Not only do we pay more for the cable than anyone else does, but we can't terminate it in the US so we have to aggregate it here in Seattle, ship it out to a high-quality assembly house in China, and then ship it back. Our supply chain is therefore months longer than for Chinese cable, our costs are higher at virtually every stage and are mostly paid well before we have salable inventory, and so we have a huge amount of money tied up in the chain and an obligation to maintain very deep stocks if we don't want to be constantly running out of it. These considerations are why nobody else will do it--but there really is no other technology that offers the impedance stability benefits that bonded pairs do.

Kurt
Blue Jeans Cable

Edit: what Gene said above is true, too. You're much more likely to start to see troubles as lengths increase. Our certifications are longer than those I've seen from anyone else for same-gauge cable. Our 28 AWG HDMI is very, very close to passing the Category 2 test at 20 feet, which is unheard of for passive cable of that gauge. The longer you go, the more critical everything becomes--interpair skew is big there (as is, still, intrapair skew) because the video channels can only get so far out of time with one another without causing trouble.
Well. You motivated me to call the engineers at WW to see what the they think is going on. I'll read them your detailed (and excellent) posts. As important, I want to get the group together to go over this one more time. The majority of us "knew" we would not hear anything. I will re-design the test and report back. I went back and forth in disbelief. So I just don't know what to think. While I trust you know your stuff Kurt, forgive me for wanting to do my own work on the topic. As I alluded to on the analogy "all amps/preamps sound the same", both sides have brutally convincing arguments.

That said, is it your scientific understanding that the data recovery problems are non-existent on USB DAC's as well (just making sure)? Meaning, short length competent USB designs sound the same?

As a side note, I spoke with a Bench Mark DAC engineer seconds ago. He explained that there is products that are designed without jitter attenuation. Hence, USB cords as well as HDMI cords will make a sonic difference. According to him, there are several products that fall short in this category. As you might guess, their products will not show any difference with a USB cord.
 
Last edited:
K

KurtBJC

Audioholic
That said, is it your scientific understanding that the data recovery problems are non-existent on USB DAC's. Meaning, short length competent designs sound the same?
I have no experience with USB DACs, nor any particular insight into whether some of them are prone to data recovery problems.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Well. You motivated me to call the engineers at WW to see what the they think is going on. I'll read them your detailed (and excellent) posts. As important, I want to get the group together to go over this one more time. The majority of us "knew" we would not hear anything. I will re-design the test and report back. I went back and forth in disbelief. So I just don't know what to think. While I trust you know your stuff Kurt, forgive me for wanting to do my own work on the topic. As I alluded to on the analogy "all amps/preamps sound the same", both sides have brutally convincing arguments.

That said, is it your scientific understanding that the data recovery problems are non-existent on USB DAC's as well (just making sure)? Meaning, short length competent USB designs sound the same?

As a side note, I spoke with a Bench Mark DAC engineer seconds ago. He explained that there is products that are designed without jitter attenuation. Hence, USB cords as well as HDMI cords will make a sonic difference. According to him, there are several products that fall short in this category. As you might guess, their products will not show any difference with a USB cord.
An engineer at a esoteric cable company is about as common as Sarah Palin attending a MENSA meeting :)
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
That said, is it your scientific understanding that the data recovery problems are non-existent on USB DAC's as well (just making sure)? Meaning, short length competent USB designs sound the same?
I realize you are speaking to Kurt but I have to ask what does error free data x-mission or even clocked recovery have to do with the output side of the device?

As a side note, I spoke with a Bench Mark DAC engineer seconds ago. He explained that there is products that are designed without jitter attenuation. Hence, USB cords as well as HDMI cords will make a sonic difference. According to him, there are several products that fall short in this category. As you might guess, their products will not show any difference with a USB cord.
Doubtful if the cable itself passes certification. You are referring to attenuation induced error. I don't know of any competent DAC out there that doesn't have word clock of some form.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Kurt,

Isn't audio over HDMI actually slotted into the Vertical Blanking Interval?
 
K

KurtBJC

Audioholic
As I read the spec, it's actually slotted into both the Vertical and the Horizontal Blanking Intervals, which both can contain what the spec calls "Data Island Periods," during which audio and auxiliary data are transmitted. Figure 5-2 in the 1.4b spec seems to indicate as much, anyhow. The data rate is the same, in any event.
 
newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top