Need Advice, new HT 15k budget

[jostenmeat]

While I agree the JVC would have been a much better choice.

Yes indeed.

The Panny is not a bad projector either. I would also point out that I prefer my money in the sound system because that's what I'm most sensitive too. At the end of the day this is an excellent setup.

Not at all a bad PJ, I could have very easily seen myself choose a Pana PJ during certain years with a very certain budget in mind, but never with 15K to play with I must admit.

It's all about allocation. Most = over 50%. In the US, my guess is that this PJ is roughly only about 15% of the budget. You could spend up to $7499 and still have technically spent most of it on audio, save for the screen of course, but doing that ideally would have only been $200-300 anyway. So say $7000. I'm not trying to be an azz, just for discussion's sake, for fun here, oblige me only if you like, but at what budget would you have egged him on alongside with me? Would you have pushed JVC at $18,000 budget? 21K? 25K?

Anyway don't worry about it, just chattin'. The hugest, biggest, most monstrous audio upgrade he could have done without spending a cent more would have been with an AT screen, also implying the 3 vertically arrayed identical speakers on the same plane. I'm going to guess he is thinking of putting a horiz center speaker within 2' of the floor, as an off the cuff guess with typical ceiling height (wait was his even shorter? Within 1' even? Houston, we have a problem?) with 120" 1.78 AR. I still haven't looked into his speaker choice, but seeing that it's KEF, there should be a solid chance that it's at least using a coincidental driver considering he is compromising on a horizontal speaker. If this HT went with AT, I would have pushed efficient speakers even more, because the XD does attenuate by a couple of db, I actually think maybe even closer to 2.5 db, which implies a near doubling of power required.

Yes, this thread got active pretty fast .

To address some of your points from my POV, while I agree with your comments regarding screen material, LCOS technology etc, I wanted to put more money into the sound system as I feel that has more value long-term then a more expensive projector (within the boundaries of my current budget). I don't like the idea of piecing a system together over many months/years, (I'm already debating not using my system next week until the 18.1 sub arrives in 4-6 weeks). I know that probably sounds weird, but if I spend a lot of money on something, I want it to be as close to perfect as it can be when I first use it. If I wasn't wired that way, I would have held off on the projector and waited till I could afford something better. (I also don't consider the AE8000 to be a poor projector, so I don't feel like I cheaped out on it)

So with that said, I would rather purchase good speakers/sub that will last me 10+years and upgrade my projector a few years from now with what I'm assuming will be even newer technology (4k/8k?). I don't imagine speaker tech will change nearly as much that I would feel the need to upgrade.

I'm not even going to try to understand the psychology part, but hey it's your money! I'll say that the $3000 I spent on my JVC 5 yrs ago lets me have the best theater I have ever been in yet (a lot of it has to do with room and setup though). I have changed out the screen once, 5 of 7 speakers, the subwoofer, but the PJ is still the same.

It will be a very, very long time before we have any substantial native 4K source material on Purple-Ray or whatever it will be.

You will have a better system right now than probably anyone you may ever know. But like I said, I think 15K can get you the best theater, period. I've had cinema-crazy-enthusiasts go to the theater on the very same day right before coming over, as they wanted to compare as quickly as possible, it's not just my own opinion.

Sorry brother, I thought you were drunk and curled up with that rabbit again so I took over...

...want to hear a joke....?

My sub is broken and I must call the builder....

Ring, ring, ring..."this is no longer a working number"...

*****No disrespect to any sub builder or harm was intended to any animal by posting this joke*****

I knew I could count on you.

 

[Senact]

Yes indeed.



Not at all a bad PJ, I could have very easily seen myself choose a Pana PJ during certain years with a very certain budget in mind, but never with 15K to play with I must admit.

It's all about allocation. Most = over 50%. In the US, my guess is that this PJ is roughly only about 15% of the budget. You could spend up to $7499 and still have technically spent most of it on audio, save for the screen of course, but doing that ideally would have only been $200-300 anyway. So say $7000. I'm not trying to be an azz, just for discussion's sake, for fun here, oblige me only if you like, but at what budget would you have egged him on alongside with me? Would you have pushed JVC at $18,000 budget? 21K? 25K?

Anyway don't worry about it, just chattin'. The hugest, biggest, most monstrous audio upgrade he could have done without spending a cent more would have been with an AT screen, also implying the 3 vertically arrayed identical speakers on the same plane. I'm going to guess he is thinking of putting a horiz center speaker within 2' of the floor, as an off the cuff guess with typical ceiling height (wait was his even shorter? Within 1' even? Houston, we have a problem?) with 120" 1.78 AR. I still haven't looked into his speaker choice, but seeing that it's KEF, there should be a solid chance that it's at least using a coincidental driver considering he is compromising on a horizontal speaker. If this HT went with AT, I would have pushed efficient speakers even more, because the XD does attenuate by a couple of db, I actually think maybe even closer to 2.5 db, which implies a near doubling of power required.



I'm not even going to try to understand the psychology part, but hey it's your money! I'll say that the $3000 I spent on my JVC 5 yrs ago lets me have the best theater I have ever been in yet (a lot of it has to do with room and setup though). I have changed out the screen once, 5 of 7 speakers, the subwoofer, but the PJ is still the same.

It will be a very, very long time before we have any substantial native 4K source material on Purple-Ray or whatever it will be.

You will have a better system right now than probably anyone you may ever know. But like I said, I think 15K can get you the best theater, period. I've had cinema-crazy-enthusiasts go to the theater on the very same day right before coming over, as they wanted to compare as quickly as possible, it's not just my own opinion.



I knew I could count on you.

Well, 3k is what I paid for the panasonic so if I could get the JVC for 3k from somewhere, sign me up. I know I allocated a majority of the funds to the sound system, and I wish I could squeeze some more out of the budget for a better projector, but I'm tapped out. I am considering making due with my 60" samsung LCD TV and holding off on the screen/projector until I can afford the JVC model (I assume you're referring to the JVC Canada model)? And yes, my center speaker will sit about a foot off the floor because of the bulkhead keeping the screen lower, I will point it up but there isn't much else I can do at this point. This will also force me to move the subwoofer to the side of the room as the height will impede vision.

I also paid 500 for the screen, where could I buy AT material of the same size for 2-300?

 

[jostenmeat]

Well, 3k is what I paid for the panasonic so if I could get the JVC for 3k from somewhere, sign me up.

You know the first place I'd call by looking at my last post; it's where I got mine, it's where a number of us got ours, in fact there are a couple members here from far as Japan that got theirs from this store, and in fact one of them bought multiple (he had a bad case of upgraditis, and kept egging me on to buy his old ones). If it was me, I'd ask if/when/how the next bstock/openboxes are coming up, and if they don't know, have them contact you when they do, and if they don't even do that, call them all the damn time and bother them. They will have it going on at least once a year, sometimes more than once a year, I haven't checked it out in a long time. Enough people have PJs now where it's not like a Black Friday mad rush at BB the morning of; when I bought mine it sold out in one day. ($1500 off the very best price I knew of, which of course, was from the same store anyway). So that's one way to get better Video for your Audio Video experience.

https://shop.avscience.com/crm.asp?action=contactus

I know I allocated a majority of the funds to the sound system, and I wish I could squeeze some more out of the budget for a better projector, but I'm tapped out. I am considering making due with my 60" samsung LCD TV and holding off on the screen/projector until I can afford the JVC model (I assume you're referring to the JVC Canada model)?

I'm not referring to any model in particular, because I don't know the ins and outs; those X model #s will have an RS equivalent which is what we see in the US. You'll have to look into the things that matter to you; to me for the money, I don't care at all about 3D, or 4K wobulation, but I would very much care about CMS (doubtful at your budget, but who knows).

And yes, my center speaker will sit about a foot off the floor because of the bulkhead keeping the screen lower, I will point it up but there isn't much else I can do at this point. This will also force me to move the subwoofer to the side of the room as the height will impede vision.

Here is a recent post I made at the other forum, which I much more recently quoted at this one. Here it goes again, answering a query about the pros/cons of AT:
It's entirely about the audio. Well, one way it could incidentally help out with video is by increasing the available space for a larger screen, depending on room dims/setup. Otherwise, entirely about the audio. Off the top of my head, in no specific order: 1. Audio/dialogue truly locked on to the screen. 2. Using identical speakers allows the best possible match. 3. All identical drivers being on the same plane allows for best possible panning effects. 4. (Typically) larger choice of (all important) center speaker usually allows for greater power handling. 5. (Typically) moving the speaker away from being to close to a boundary (ceiling or floor) reduces SBIR, and helps clarify audio. 5 (Typical) avoidance of horiz MTM center speaker configuration gives clearer dialogue intelligibility at the extremes of seating. I haven't talked about this stuff in close to a couple of years, so I'm probably forgetting something.

So with the issue of 1' to floor, you will be exciting all sorts of energy, probably of the midbass kind, which will make your dialogue muddy, because it's simply "masking" your dialogue frequencies. Then there is another issue that I have found with this, this excited muddiness is very localizable at the floor. You can sense the excited energy right from the floor. Which is weird. You can do your best to acoustically treat the floor, acoustic cotton underneath rugs, with the speaker itself sitting on top of the thickest and most absorbent acoustic panel/thing you can figure out, but it won't solve your issue. Mitigate yes, but why even go this route when you can go AT?

I also paid 500 for the screen, where could I buy AT material of the same size for 2-300?

The info is in my very first post in this thread, but I'll grab you a linky. $22 per linear ft. That's all it needs to cost for what G Lucas is using. Scroll half way down. Out of stock currently, they will be back in soon; if you order now, they will have it queued right up so that it's processing as soon as the material comes in.
Seymour AV | Store

All the above aside- assuming I was in your shoes and carried with that my own personal preferences, and own choices of compromise: that I wanted the better PJ, and could build up to it later. Any of these would work for me.

Find a better PJ price, and/or be patient with that
Just start with 5.1
Just start with 3.1
Hire someone to build me speakers, sub, and screen
If I didn't know a single person that knew how to work with wood, then hire someone to glue and screw for me some speakers after learning more about possibilities such these or these or whatever other kits are available.
Find out how close to me GO-NAD was, then bake him lots and lots of cookies so that he would accept my monies for building me stuff.
Buy speakers that simply cost less.
Compromise by not getting the most expensive subwoofer (no idea how much the Funk is); HT imo is not about the highest level of audio fidelity, it's more about dialogue intelligibility, surround steering, pure impact/dynamics; unless you're setting this up for operatic bluray concerts which some people do, but I don't think that's you, you said you're emulating the movie theater. Of course IMO more than all of those, it's about the impact of the picture you're seeing.

Anyway just some off the cuff thoughts. Maybe I'd change my mind on something, I dunno, but I bet I could make it happen rather easily with your budget, but than my priorities are surely different.

 

[jostenmeat]

I still like the false wall idea. I wonder if in your case, if it could be up forward enough so that the bulkhead is a non-issue. Behind it you could hide 3 speakers and 2 subs, all ugly as sin, they could be the most horrible looking things you've ever seen, no one else will ever get to see them. Also, you can move speakers further from front wall, and or treat this wall (I have 9(?) "ugly" acoustic treatments behind my false wall, all totally invisible). Don't pay for pretty finishes, because I will tell you right now that the reflected light off the screen and PJ will be quite visible off them. What you want in a theater is pure immersion, think you're in the movie. If having reflective speakers was better, that's what they would be aiming for in a movie theater, and the movie theater is what you intended to replicate and or supercede. You could probably build a false wall for well under $100. Just a handful of 2x4s, some screws/bolts, some cheap speaker cloth, etc.

With a solid screen and limited space, you're probably going to shove your speakers as close to front wall as possible, and even worse the corners. The more space you could give them, well then they might even block your pic, and be all the more reflective with light. Anyway if you were warming up at all to the idea of DIY/hiring out/speaker kits, if with a false wall, you wouldn't need to care at all about finishing the speakers. Like I said, ugly as sin, won't matter, pay for pure performance, and not expensive finishes/glosses/veneers, or marketing/packaging (with implied shipping costs), etc.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Senact, you didn't waste any time between your first post and placing your order! I can appreciate you wanting your stuff now, but a little bit of patience now could save you money and nagging doubts in the future. First thing I need to ask is - can you still cancel/change any part of your order? Here are a few of my observations, which you can ignore of course, because they didn't cost you anything.

1) Looking at the prices that I found on-line for the KEF R-series, there is a difference of $1000 as you move up the line of towers, i.e. $1000 to go from the R500 to the R700 and another $1000 from the R700 to the R900. Those are substantial price steps in my book. What I'm driving at is, if you are using a subwoofer(s), do you really need the absolute deepest bass extension from your mains? Others might disagree, but I would argue no you don't. If you set your crossover at the typical 80 Hz, and your mains can easily reach that frequency before they start to drop off, deeper bass capabilities from your mains go to waste. Looking at the manufacturer's specs, the R500 is rated at 46Hz - 28KHz, +/- 3db. Even allowing for manufacturers' number fudging, they shoud easily extend deep enough to cross over seamlessly with the subwoofer(s). You could save yourself $2000 right there. Or, you could play it safe and go with the R700 and still save $1000. So, unless you plan to sometimes use those mains in "pure-direct" mode, with the subwoofers cut out, or unless you got a super deal on those R900s that isn't available on the others, I would seriously consider stepping down on your mains choice.

2) I built my AT screen and false wall for about $500. Seymour's XD material is an excellent choice for a DIY AT screen. If you are the slightest bit handy (or, know somebody who is), you can build a screen. Seymour's website has clear, illustrated instructions for doing so. It's dead easy. Right now, with that centre speaker sitting a foot off the floor, its' sound quality will be compromised. Plus, by their very nature, bookshelf/tower speakers tend to be sonically superior to horizontal centres. With an AT screen, you can go with a bookshelf/tower speaker for your centre and have the drivers at a proper height.* I understand that most of us have to make some compromises with our setups (Lord knows I have to), but if we can avoid them without spending more money, why not? A false wall is also simple. You can see mine here:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/pros-joes-systems-gallery/72153-bluenose-theatre.html

* I have a horizontal centre only because I had my audio equipment with a TV, long before I went with the PJ setup. If you have any questions at all don't hesitate to ask. By the way, a false wall would allow you to place substantial acoustic treatment, i.e. bass traps, out of sight.

 

[lsiberian]

I've never framed a false wall because I live in apartment, but is it really that simple?

Maybe you could link some steps on the process.

 

[GO-NAD!]

I've never framed a false wall because I live in apartment, but is it really that simple?

Maybe you could link some steps on the process.

I have to say, I can't provide any links. I found it so simple, that I didn't really need any guidance. You can see my wall frame in the photos I have posted.

Just think about what this wall needs to do - support itself, speaker cloth and the AT screen. The screen is the heaviest part, which is to say, there would be very little loading on the wall. So, studding requirements are pretty minimal. I used 2" x 3" spruce lumber for mine. I made a "window" in the wall that is the same dimensions as the screen. In my case, 51" x 91". With a very large screen, one might have to place more vertical support within that opening, but that can fitted later, if required.

If you want to make it a permanent installation, you can just frame it out like a normal wall partition. I decided to make mine moveable, should I later decide to adjust the distance from the front wall. I measured the room dimensions in the location of the false wall and subtracted about 1/2" from the width. For the height, I had to account for the fact that I was assembling the wall on the floor. Thus, I had to ensure the diagonal height of the frame, front to back, was such that it could be tipped up in place without getting jammed between the floor and the ceiling (I hope you can picture what I mean). Since extremely few ceilings/walls/floors are perfectly perpendicular to each other, you need to measure in several places in order to work out the best dimensions for your false wall.

I cut all the pieces to size and then painted them flat black prior to assembly. After assembly - I just nailed mine together with 3" nails - I tipped it up vertically where I wanted it. I slipped strips of carpet underlay foam under the bottom of the wall rail.* Then, standing on the rail compressed the foam enough that I could slip strips of foam between the ceiling and the top rail. The wall stayed upright by itself at this point. Then I slipped foam strips between the sides and the room walls. After putting foam on one side, used a pry bar on the other side to gently pry the false wall to compress the foam on the opposite side, allowing me to slip in foam on the pry bar side. I find this is perfectly sufficient to hold the false wall in place. If you give the wall a deliberate shove, of course it will move. But, if left alone, it supports itself and the screen wihout a problem. I then checked the wall plum with a plum bob (you could use a level as well) and tapped with a hammer to adjust.

After the wall was up, I stapled the speaker grill cloth to the frame. I stapled all around the perimeter and around the "window" opening. The screen frame covers the staples around the window and I installed trim to the perimeter of the wall to cover the gap between the false wall and room wall, as well as to cover the staples.

Finally, I installed a french cleat to hang the screen. I attached one half to the upper rail of the window opening, by pre-drilling and screwing. I certainly couldn't nail the cleat on - I would've knocked the wall down. I then did the same to install the other half to the upper rail of the screen.

Done! If anyone needs more detailed instructions and illustrations, I'll try to help.

*After re-reading that, I have to point out that I had just renovated my room and there was no baseboard trim installed at that point. If you have such trim installed, you have to account for and work around that if you want to assemble your wall on the floor. Assembling it in its vertical orientation would be more difficult, but not impossible.

 

[Senact]

Senact, you didn't waste any time between your first post and placing your order! I can appreciate you wanting your stuff now, but a little bit of patience now could save you money and nagging doubts in the future. First thing I need to ask is - can you still cancel/change any part of your order? Here are a few of my observations, which you can ignore of course, because they didn't cost you anything.

1) Looking at the prices that I found on-line for the KEF R-series, there is a difference of $1000 as you move up the line of towers, i.e. $1000 to go from the R500 to the R700 and another $1000 from the R700 to the R900. Those are substantial price steps in my book. What I'm driving at is, if you are using a subwoofer(s), do you really need the absolute deepest bass extension from your mains? Others might disagree, but I would argue no you don't. If you set your crossover at the typical 80 Hz, and your mains can easily reach that frequency before they start to drop off, deeper bass capabilities from your mains go to waste. Looking at the manufacturer's specs, the R500 is rated at 46Hz - 28KHz, +/- 3db. Even allowing for manufacturers' number fudging, they shoud easily extend deep enough to cross over seamlessly with the subwoofer(s). You could save yourself $2000 right there. Or, you could play it safe and go with the R700 and still save $1000. So, unless you plan to sometimes use those mains in "pure-direct" mode, with the subwoofers cut out, or unless you got a super deal on those R900s that isn't available on the others, I would seriously consider stepping down on your mains choice.

2) I built my AT screen and false wall for about $500. Seymour's XD material is an excellent choice for a DIY AT screen. If you are the slightest bit handy (or, know somebody who is), you can build a screen. Seymour's website has clear, illustrated instructions for doing so. It's dead easy. Right now, with that centre speaker sitting a foot off the floor, its' sound quality will be compromised. Plus, by their very nature, bookshelf/tower speakers tend to be sonically superior to horizontal centres. With an AT screen, you can go with a bookshelf/tower speaker for your centre and have the drivers at a proper height.* I understand that most of us have to make some compromises with our setups (Lord knows I have to), but if we can avoid them without spending more money, why not? A false wall is also simple. You can see mine here:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/pros-joes-systems-gallery/72153-bluenose-theatre.html

* I have a horizontal centre only because I had my audio equipment with a TV, long before I went with the PJ setup. If you have any questions at all don't hesitate to ask. By the way, a false wall would allow you to place substantial acoustic treatment, i.e. bass traps, out of sight.

Heh, I thought I waited quite a while before ordering, but I guess I'm impatient that way . There was a big sale that I wanted to take advantage of so that pushed me a bit harder then I would have normally.
The only reason I have the R900 is a combination of miscommunication and typo. I was quoted for the R700 as that was my original choice but he put down the R900. I'm not sure what is actually going to arrive, as I haven't picked up my stuff yet. Anyway, as for price, I'm paying a discounted price on the R700 speakers which makes it a really good deal for the 900.

As for the false wall, something I didn't touch on with a lot of detail is the bulkhead in the room. See picture below (I hope it displays larger then the thumbnail), its just a rough model done in Pro-E, but it shows some mockups of different screen sizes and speaker placement. The smallest of the 3 blue squares is a 98" screen I could buy new for basically nothing from my brother, the two larger screens are 120" at 16:9 and 2.35 AR. The outside speakers are the 900's offset 1 foot from the wall in each direction and the big black squares are the 18.1 funk sub and 18.0c. As you can see, I don't have a lot of room because of this bulkhead wrapping around two sides of the room. My plans in the future (Years) would be to rework the venting in that bulkhead to reduce or eliminate it, but this is not a project I can/am willing to undertake at this point, I don't have the time.

With that said, I would like to build a false wall if/when I can remove the bulkhead and maximize my already limited ceiling height, but for now, I'm seriously considering returning my 120" and using the 98" screen (which is basically free) and hang it from the front face of the bulkhead (which puts the screen about 20" from the wall and also keeps it centered in the room. As for the sub, I'm also concerned about the height, which is why I'm considering changing to the 18.0c as its more suited to the size of the room.

With regards to patience, I will fully admit that I'm dealing with a lot more hassle simply because I rushed in for a sale, I should have done more research and planned some more. I'm already returning 2 polk subs, a monster conditioner, and now probably the screen. Also, Josten's comment about the piano black finish reflecting light, I never considered that, and I ordered my R series in that finish as I prefer black over cherry or wood colours.
Hopefully I can minimize that glare in the future.

 

[Senact]

I typed up a huge response and added a pic of my room showing some of my concerns, and it got flagged for moderator approval. Last time that happened, my message(s) never got posted to this thread.
Hopefully it shows up, but to sum up, I ended up getting nearly 50% on the R900's from the websites listed price, so there is no real advantage to step down, as the savings wouldn't be there for the other models.

I would like to build a false wall, but I have a bulkhead running around two sides of the room. I wanted to illustrate that in the pic but I suspect that's why my post was flagged. I believe I can reduce/remove the bulkhead by reworking everything in it, but it's not a project I have time to tackle and won't for a while. With that said, I can get a 98" screen brand new for basically nothing that will fit within the constrains of the bulkhead and still be centered in the room. My center speaker could then sit about 2.5' off the floor (still not perfect but better). When I have time to tackle the bulkhead, I could build a false wall at that point and maximum screen size and ceiling height. Also, as the screen would hang off the face of the bulkhead, it gives me about 20" behind the screen for the speakers/sub and AVR.

Edit: Also, I know my opinions have changed over the course of this thread, but that has been influenced by your posts, I should have been more patient at the start, there are a few things I've overlooked. Thanks for everyone's expert advice.

 

[lsiberian]

Sorry for hijacking the thread, but I just wanted to get an idea about the false wall construction technique. Your setup is great I'd not worry too much about it now.

Really you don't need all that for a great experience. Once you get your favorite beverage and fire up your favorite movie you'll be very satisfied. Don't let us take that away from you. A system without an upgrade path is not one most of us really want. We love the hobby to much to stop upgrading stuff.

 

[GO-NAD!]

I typed up a huge response and added a pic of my room showing some of my concerns, and it got flagged for moderator approval. Last time that happened, my message(s) never got posted to this thread.
Hopefully it shows up, but to sum up, I ended up getting nearly 50% on the R900's from the websites listed price, so there is no real advantage to step down, as the savings wouldn't be there for the other models.

I would like to build a false wall, but I have a bulkhead running around two sides of the room. I wanted to illustrate that in the pic but I suspect that's why my post was flagged. I believe I can reduce/remove the bulkhead by reworking everything in it, but it's not a project I have time to tackle and won't for a while. With that said, I can get a 98" screen brand new for basically nothing that will fit within the constrains of the bulkhead and still be centered in the room. My center speaker could then sit about 2.5' off the floor (still not perfect but better). When I have time to tackle the bulkhead, I could build a false wall at that point and maximum screen size and ceiling height. Also, as the screen would hang off the face of the bulkhead, it gives me about 20" behind the screen for the speakers/sub and AVR.

Edit: Also, I know my opinions have changed over the course of this thread, but that has been influenced by your posts, I should have been more patient at the start, there are a few things I've overlooked. Thanks for everyone's expert advice.

50% off!? Wow, that tells you how much they mark them up, eh? That's why I added "unless you got a super deal on those R900s that isn't available on the others". Hey, if you can get that 98" screen for a pittance, then I say go for it for now. Then, if you plan later to do the AT screen/false wall, it won't have been a large investment wasted. Getting your centre up to 30" will be a solid improvement. You should able to live comfortably with that setup while you plan any improvements. Taking a year or more to come up with a plan isn't that unusual, so there's no rush. In the meantime, if you definitely plan to do the AT screen/false wall at some point, it might be a good idea to keep your eyes and ears open for a single R900/700/500 (any of them would do the job) that would serve as a centre behind the AT screen. If you find one for a good price, jump on it and put it away until you need it. Good luck!

 

[Senact]

50% off!? Wow, that tells you how much they mark them up, eh? That's why I added "unless you got a super deal on those R900s that isn't available on the others". Hey, if you can get that 98" screen for a pittance, then I say go for it for now. Then, if you plan later to do the AT screen/false wall, it won't have been a large investment wasted. Getting your centre up to 30" will be a solid improvement. You should able to live comfortably with that setup while you plan any improvements. Taking a year or more to come up with a plan isn't that unusual, so there's no rush. In the meantime, if you definitely plan to do the AT screen/false wall at some point, it might be a good idea to keep your eyes and ears open for a single R900/700/500 (any of them would do the job) that would serve as a centre behind the AT screen. If you find one for a good price, jump on it and put it away until you need it. Good luck!

well, there was more to that story that I had added to my first attempted post, but basically I had asked for the R700 and was quoted for the R700 but my invoice says R900, so I'll have to sort that out when I go pick up the items, but I'm secretly hoping I'll get the R900's and they will eat the cost for their mistake.

Yea, I think that's the route I'll take. Originally I was planning to gut the whole room, wire everything behind the walls, fix the bulkhead, add speaker outlets etc, but with recent developments, I just won't have time to undertake that, so I will make do with what I have and as you said, plan the room out over the next while and tackle it later. I really like the false wall idea and think it will work well when I have time to do it properly, at which point I can acoustically treat the room, bigger AT screen etc. I didn't realize there would be a huge improvement to using another tower vs a center channel. So horizontal centers only exist for ease of placement?
Probably a dumb question but can you take a horizontal speaker and rotate it upright?

@Isiberian - Thanks that was a great comment to read. It's pretty easy to get caught up in all the finer details of a HT and forget that what I have coming, even if only 90% perfect, will still be worlds ahead of what I was using before.

 

[GO-NAD!]

well, there was more to that story that I had added to my first attempted post, but basically I had asked for the R700 and was quoted for the R700 but my invoice says R900, so I'll have to sort that out when I go pick up the items, but I'm secretly hoping I'll get the R900's and they will eat the cost for their mistake.

Well, if the price they put on the invoice is for the R700, but they have the R900 model on it, that's their mistake and should honour it.

So horizontal centers only exist for ease of placement?

Yes. There is no acoustic advantage to making them.

Probably a dumb question but can you take a horizontal speaker and rotate it upright?

That's not a dumb question. There are some speakers designed so that they can be placed horizontally or vertically - the Energy R-LCR comes to mind - but unless it was designed that way, it probably won't work well.

 

[jostenmeat]

As for the false wall, something I didn't touch on with a lot of detail is the bulkhead in the room. See picture below (I hope it displays larger then the thumbnail), its just a rough model done in Pro-E, but it shows some mockups of different screen sizes and speaker placement. The smallest of the 3 blue squares is a 98" screen I could buy new for basically nothing from my brother, the two larger screens are 120" at 16:9 and 2.35 AR. The outside speakers are the 900's offset 1 foot from the wall in each direction and the big black squares are the 18.1 funk sub and 18.0c. As you can see, I don't have a lot of room because of this bulkhead wrapping around two sides of the room. My plans in the future (Years) would be to rework the venting in that bulkhead to reduce or eliminate it, but this is not a project I can/am willing to undertake at this point, I don't have the time.

With that said, I would like to build a false wall if/when I can remove the bulkhead and maximize my already limited ceiling height, but for now, I'm seriously considering returning my 120" and using the 98" screen (which is basically free) and hang it from the front face of the bulkhead (which puts the screen about 20" from the wall and also keeps it centered in the room. As for the sub, I'm also concerned about the height, which is why I'm considering changing to the 18.0c as its more suited to the size of the room.

I don't think I quite get the picture with the bulkhead, and how far it protrudes and where. You could have a false wall that has some interesting modifications ("cutout") to fit, or have it simply in front or something? Regarding subs, they don't HAVE to be forward firing, as far as any fears of pulsating the screen, and you know, if the screen does pulsate, it might only add to the effect. There is a guy here that had such violent pulsating, the screen was audibly slapping against framing behind it, which he had to address.

Ok, wait, 20" out would be the wall? I can't remember your room length, but something tells me you could do more. I bet most speakers you look at will be around a foot deep maybe more, which really means that your speaker is within close to half a ft from the front wall. I'm not saying you absolutely need more space (especially if significantly treating the wall), but more space is more flexibility.

As you might be able able to foresee, the screen's frame and the false wall's frame could be blocking certain speaker drivers. I put my 3 speakers on cinder blocks so that they would clear. The center's tweeter is smack dab perfectly in the center of the screen AFAIK.

My own wall is screwed into floor and ceiling. But it's not sidewall to sidewall, it looks it sorta due to side curtains, but I can squeeze around. Also the cutouts for where the main speakers go, the speaker fabric covering all that is fasted by velcro at the extremes so that I could have a larger aperture to work with if needed. Also, I could just remove the screen as well.

 

[GO-NAD!]

As for the false wall, something I didn't touch on with a lot of detail is the bulkhead in the room. See picture below (I hope it displays larger then the thumbnail), its just a rough model done in Pro-E, but it shows some mockups of different screen sizes and speaker placement. The smallest of the 3 blue squares is a 98" screen I could buy new for basically nothing from my brother, the two larger screens are 120" at 16:9 and 2.35 AR. The outside speakers are the 900's offset 1 foot from the wall in each direction and the big black squares are the 18.1 funk sub and 18.0c. As you can see, I don't have a lot of room because of this bulkhead wrapping around two sides of the room. My plans in the future (Years) would be to rework the venting in that bulkhead to reduce or eliminate it, but this is not a project I can/am willing to undertake at this point, I don't have the time.

With that said, I would like to build a false wall if/when I can remove the bulkhead and maximize my already limited ceiling height, but for now, I'm seriously considering returning my 120" and using the 98" screen (which is basically free) and hang it from the front face of the bulkhead (which puts the screen about 20" from the wall and also keeps it centered in the room. As for the sub, I'm also concerned about the height, which is why I'm considering changing to the 18.0c as its more suited to the size of the room.

Now, there are people around this forum who have forgotten more than I will ever know about acoustics. But, if there is one thing I have learned, it's that your speakers should never be equidistant from side and front walls. You might want to consider how to work around that.

Does this bulkhead cover up duct work? If so, perhaps you could find an inconspicuous spot to cut into the bulkhead to see if it is taking up more space than it needs to, and reduce its intrusion into the room.

 

[lsiberian]

Now, there are people around this forum who have forgotten more than I will ever know about acoustics. But, if there is one thing I have learned, it's that your speakers should never be equidistant from side and front walls. You might want to consider how to work around that.

Does this bulkhead cover up duct work? If so, perhaps you could find an inconspicuous spot to cut into the bulkhead to see if it is taking up more space than it needs to, and reduce its intrusion into the room.

If you treat the front wall that would eliminate the issues with it. Honestly I'm not sure it's that big of a deal. Being close to the front wall is a bigger deal because your are getting a lot of reflection that way. If you toe in it helps with that issue.

 

[Senact]

I had all of this illustrated in a crude 3d model but the forum never lets me post it. Always says I need approval and my message never shows up.

Anyway, the bulkhead runs around 2.5 of the walls, length ways the bulkhead protrudes about 2.5' out and on the wall where my screen will go, it runs that whole length and protrudes 16" or so (going off memory).
Venting and water lines for the sprinklers run in the bulkhead, as I mentioned earlier, it should be possible for me to remove the bulkhead, or enough of it so I can center my screen in the room and maximize my height, thus getting a larger screen. However, I don't have the time to deal with a project like that now, so I will hold off until I can do it properly, at which point I would build a false wall at AT screen. I would be able to build the false wall around the bulkhead, but that is not what I want long term as I would have to sacrifice 11" of height, where if I wait and remove the bulkhead, I can get that height back.

I modelled the speakers in the pic I can't show to be 1 ft away from both sides, just to see how things would fit. There is some play there. My room is roughly just shy of 22x14x7.5'

@jostenmeat - I called another store in town that I deal with through work and it turns out he can get me a JVC-DLAX30 for the same price I paid for my panasonic AE8000 (work relations played a part I believe). Would you recommend going this route?

 

[lsiberian]

I had all of this illustrated in a crude 3d model but the forum never lets me post it. Always says I need approval and my message never shows up.

@jostenmeat - I called another store in town that I deal with through work and it turns out he can get me a JVC-DLAX30 for the same price I paid for my panasonic AE8000 (work relations played a part I believe). Would you recommend going this route?

Since you are covering up the front area I suggest lining the back wall with rockwool.

You may need to compress the image. Irfanview does that really well and is a free download.

If you would like to link the image I do have a host domain. Just let me know.

 

[Senact]

Test post

Edit: I changed the format from PNG to JPG and now it works, not sure if that was the issue.
The green is the bulkhead, top, front and Iso view.
The 3 blue outlines are different screen options. The smallest is the 98" screen my brother has that I could mount to the face of the bulkhead, and acquire most of the height I need for the center speaker and sub, the two larger outlines are 120" 1.78 and 2.35 AR options, both would need to be mounted under the bulkhead to remain centered in the room.
The outside black boxes are the loudspeakers,
The inner boxes were two possible Funk subs (18.1 on the left which I bought and the 18.0c on the right)

So as I mentioned, I could easily build a false wall around the bulkhead, but because the side bulkhead comes out so far, in order to center my screen in the room, it would have to be below the bulkhead, which forces me to give up nearly a foot of ceiling height. If I wait and remove the bulkhead when I have time, or reduce its width, I could built the false wall and maximize by ceiling height with a bigger screen.

 

[jostenmeat]

@jostenmeat - I called another store in town that I deal with through work and it turns out he can get me a JVC-DLAX30 for the same price I paid for my panasonic AE8000 (work relations played a part I believe). Would you recommend going this route?

Me, I wouldn't even blink. However the X30 (should be the RS45 here I believe) doesn't seem to do well with 3D. Does the Panny do better, no idea. These reviews here are not the end-all by any means, but I find them enjoyable to peruse, he has seen more PJs than you can shake a stick at, and even though there will always be some unit to unit variation (some worse than others, Epson used to be one of the most inconsistent in this regard in years past, even though a super-value-leader), I find the lumens measurements to be particularly informative, and that's where I'll drop you off at. Just for knowledge, to get foot lamberts, you take lumens and simply divide by square ft of screen. Wait, did I tell you that already, probably did, and already gave you some calculators, ok now I'm probably just repeating myself. Look back on some of the things I listed with how LCOS/DILA > LCD. Now if you only care about 2 yrs use, fine. If you want 5+, it's going to be impossible to beat JVC at the budget, I'm led to believe. Also, you have zero worry of moiré on an AT weave with LCOS (precisely due to highest fill ratio). LCD has the lowest fill ratio, and using the "tilted" screen is imperative. If you buy prebuilt Seymour gives you the max anyway for you just in case, and if building your own, I'd recommend it anyway, just in case. That's what I did even with LCOS. If you comb the pages, you'll see the JVC outperforms the Panny by nearly 300 lumens best mode vs best mode. That is a lot. A damn lot. I will say that the JVC most definitely surpasses my expectations with brighteness (they have had a more expensive model that didn't even do half of that; sometimes superior black performance means less bright projector, ever since the first gen of RS), however, the black levels and shadow detail are good (hey, it's JVC and this is where they kick azz), but the reviewer is only lukewarm about these qualities here. FWIW, my PJ is pretty color inaccurate, but the most desirable thing for me is even better black performance, but then again I have a room that can benefit from that kind of thing. (Basically I'd want that, then brightness, then the improvement of my poor color accuracy, in that order at this moment w/o thinking about it too hard.)

JVC DLA-RS45 Projector Performance

Panasonic PT-AE8000 Projector Performance

Since you are covering up the front area I suggest lining the back wall with rockwool.

I also make this mistake time to time, but you meant front wall I believe. I also recommend treating the wall, and furthermore, I'd consider floor to ceiling superchunk bass traps using cut fiberglass wedges in the corners.

So as I mentioned, I could easily build a false wall around the bulkhead, but because the side bulkhead comes out so far, in order to center my screen in the room, it would have to be below the bulkhead, which forces me to give up nearly a foot of ceiling height. If I wait and remove the bulkhead when I have time, or reduce its width, I could built the false wall and maximize by ceiling height with a bigger screen.

Ah yes the third image in 3D really does tell the story, I now understand what you are saying.