DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

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TooManyToys

Audiophyte
Yes.... she is Mark's daughter-inlaw. Now, I'm not certain exactly who's daughter she is. I don't think she is the daughter of his current wife (Lynn), oops, that would make her a step-daughter so that's not it.... and I have never heard if Lynn had a son. I know Mark has no children (that anyone knows about anyway), so that means Suzanne is married to a son of a former wife of Mark's to actually be his daughter-inlaw correct?

:scratches head:

Why can't anything ever be simple with him? ;)
John,

When we had the NJGTG at Shadow's house Mark talked about a son in some extent that was a bike (pedal) enthusiast who had to have a hip replacement. And that they went with a more expensive type of joint then commonly used.
 
H

Hugh-Melody

Audioholic
I can wow to this.

As far as I'm concerned and related to one particular raffle for my best friend Thanh, Craig is a man of his word when he said he'd send a check to Thanh.

Craig's check was the only money Thanh received while he was still alive.

As I stated previously, for this, I'll always be grateful to Craig.
According to Craig, he gave his money directly to the recipients and no evidence has ever surfaced to discredit that claim. So, I'd take him at his word. That means he never funneled his money through MLS when he participated. So that would deflate your theory a bit. :p
 
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Hugh-Melody

Audioholic
Suzanne is Lynn's daughter.
Yes.... she is Mark's daughter-inlaw. Now, I'm not certain exactly who's daughter she is. I don't think she is the daughter of his current wife (Lynn), oops, that would make her a step-daughter so that's not it.... and I have never heard if Lynn had a son. I know Mark has no children (that anyone knows about anyway), so that means Suzanne is married to a son of a former wife of Mark's to actually be his daughter-inlaw correct?

:scratches head:

Why can't anything ever be simple with him? ;)
 
m-fine

m-fine

Audioholic
You think that skeeter, for example, should have some real accountability in all of this? I find it deplorable that he agreed and continued to be a mod, but I can't see him being responsible, directly or indirectly, for any fleecing. I've said it before and now I'm repeating myself, but I get what mls did. You hear that story all too often. I have a much harder time getting my head around the followers or supporters or whatever you want to call them who were still on board the Schifter Express right up until the indictment. And I won't even mention the guys who still might be blaming Chu Gai for cooking up a conspiracy.
I can't give you any names in particular since I left the AV123 forum over a year ago and I do not know who the mods were. My understanding is that Scott was let go in early 2009 around the time of the forum shutdown. Information on the raffles was still not widely known at the point.

That said, anyone who was deleting the posts and banning people had to have been reading them first. They certainly had to have known what they were actively covering up. Whether that was forum friends promoted to mods, employees, or familly members like Lynn and Suzanne, anyone who knew what was going on and helped cover it up directly contributed to more people losing their money.
 
C

cschang

Audioholic Chief
The incarcerated MLS has a knack for creative verbal spin as well as a knack for cutting and pasting essentially creating Photoshopped versions of his perception of reality. CC apparently still has a raging woody for you Curtis despite your private and public attempts at apologies. Now, what did Gomez Adams say? Oh yes. C'est la vie!
I'm not worried about Craig...he's drawing his own attention on this matter on AVS. For him to step in the spotlight with MLS is funny...but predictable.
 
C

cschang

Audioholic Chief
I certainly wouldn't expect things to get any better. You and I continuously challenged Craig over AV123/MLS starting 5-6 years ago. He not going to forgive us for being right about MLS and his business antics. We're reading how these supporters of MLS feel about having been duped. Well, for years there was no bigger or more public supporter of MLS/AV123 than Craig. Craig was also frequently the among the 1st and often the largest contributor to MLS's "charity raffles." All that time and effort Craig put into that and now it is laid out that MLS had been stealing that whole time. It has got to really hurt someone as proud as Craig.
Yup, he doesn't deal with disagreement very well. He and MLS claimed that they were targets. I guess if people don't believe you, you call yourself a target.

I think it is interesting that Craig is on AVS stating what he thought to be AV123 raffle policy in terms of raffle prizes and how part of raffle proceeds would pay them.
 
C

cschang

Audioholic Chief
According to Craig, he gave his money directly to the recipients and no evidence has ever surfaced to discredit that claim. So, I'd take him at his word. That means he never funneled his money through MLS when he participated. So that would deflate your theory a bit. :p
I am betting that Craig had at least notion that things were not kosher with the raffles.

I am sure that MLS told Craig a lot of things. MLS told me some interesting things....like having a mistress. I can only imagine what he told others he was closer to.

As for raffles that Craig ran/held...he donated the proceeds properly.
 
Jed M

Jed M

Full Audioholic
I can't give you any names in particular since I left the AV123 forum over a year ago and I do not know who the mods were. My understanding is that Scott was let go in early 2009 around the time of the forum shutdown. Information on the raffles was still not widely known at the point.

That said, anyone who was deleting the posts and banning people had to have been reading them first. They certainly had to have known what they were actively covering up. Whether that was forum friends promoted to mods, employees, or familly members like Lynn and Suzanne, anyone who knew what was going on and helped cover it up directly contributed to more people losing their money.
Mark told me it was Kyle who was responsible for deleting posts and banning people. He told me once in an email he didn't understand the entire process and not to blame him...:rolleyes:
 
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Tex-amp

Senior Audioholic
According to Craig, he gave his money directly to the recipients and no evidence has ever surfaced to discredit that claim. So, I'd take him at his word. That means he never funneled his money through MLS when he participated. So that would deflate your theory a bit. :p
Still, Craig posted about his contributions on the raffle threads which helped build momentum. Straight to the charities is how to get your tax deduction for the contribution.
 
gonk

gonk

Full Audioholic
i thought i would get a ban.. but considering my actions around there a full never ending ban without reason seems a bit harsh and over bearing.. but whatever.. those are the signs of a dictatorship failing as the last few bits of old decrepit worn concrete of the party head quarters falls to the ground..
I think that Jed M had a "permanent ban" at one point last fall, but after about a week they reversed themselves (not that he much wanted to go back there). Who knows? If the forum lasts another week, you might get un-banned, too... :)
I can't give you any names in particular since I left the AV123 forum over a year ago and I do not know who the mods were. My understanding is that Scott was let go in early 2009 around the time of the forum shutdown. Information on the raffles was still not widely known at the point.
Scott's paid position went away around January 2009. His account retained moderator status after that (he still had mod privileges when I was there last September), but wasn't acting as a moderator anymore.
That said, anyone who was deleting the posts and banning people had to have been reading them first. They certainly had to have known what they were actively covering up. Whether that was forum friends promoted to mods, employees, or familly members like Lynn and Suzanne, anyone who knew what was going on and helped cover it up directly contributed to more people losing their money.
The company as a whole decided to re-open the forum in spite of unpaid refunds, undelivered product, and no resolution to the raffle questions. That decision was tied to a new forum moderation policy that relied on deleting posts, deleting threads, and handing out bans as a solution to difficult subjects. The policy was clearly deceptive, and my assertion has always been that the policy was intended to allow them to resume using the forum as a marketing tool.

Did employees like Kyle know about the business problems (undelivered products, bad amps, etc.)? Sure - dealing with them was part of Kyle's primary job. Did Kyle know about owed refunds (many of which are technically "personal" debts of Mark's or Graham Company's)? Probably the ones we know about, at least, and possibly more. Did Kyle know about how much money Mark had really stolen from the raffles? Impossible to know, but since he didn't even work there when most of the theft took place it seems unlikely - unless Mark had decided to be honest with Kyle about the raffles, which would seem to be out of character for Mark.
 
Jed M

Jed M

Full Audioholic
Still, Craig posted about his contributions on the raffle threads which helped build momentum. Straight to the charities is how to get your tax deduction for the contribution.
Personally I find it really unfair to even remotely connect Craig generously helping charities to what MLS did. I can understand disagreeing with Craig on things but he should only be praised regarding his charitable contributions and not mentioned in the same sentence as a man who stole from charities.
 
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Hugh-Melody

Audioholic
+1 on this matter.
Personally I find it really unfair to even remotely connect Craig generously helping charities to what MLS did. I can understand disagreeing with Craig on things but he should be only praised when it came to his charitable contributions and not mentioned in the same sentence as a man who stole from charities.
 
T

Tex-amp

Senior Audioholic
Personally I find it really unfair to even remotely connect Craig generously helping charities to what MLS did. I can understand disagreeing with Craig on things but he should only be praised regarding his charitable contributions and not mentioned in the same sentence as a man who stole from charities.
You're missing my point. Craig believed and frequently led and has now found out out his generosity was used for deceit by someone else. That has to be really hard for him. It was not my intent to imply in any way that Craig was complicit in the fraud if that is how it is being read.
 
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Harmon

Audioholic Intern
Now that people are coming foward at Tweak City regarding the authorities having contacted them on this matter does this mean the "variety of reasons" includes the authorities having interviewed you? I know you bought raffle tickets, did you win one? From what is getting posted at TC its looking like all raffle winners or donors of $500 or more were interviewed by the authorities.
Nope, I haven't been contacted. Actually, I never participated in the raffles. The only one I was going to participate in was the one to benefit Bruce (aka Brucer) (was that the first raffle?), but by the time I got around to buying a ticket, all the tickets had been sold so I just made a small donation ($50 - I think) to MLS for Bruce's benefit. Hope the money made it to Bruce.

The "variety of reasons" is partly because I have to be careful what I post publicly because of my job. I also had personal reasons to keep quiet because I did/do consider Mark to be a friend (in the same sense I consider you and Curtis to be "friends"), and didn't want to pile on. Didn't see that I really had anything constructive to add.

Also, I didn't like how much some people seemed to be enjoying tearing someone down publicly, and I knew if I pointed that out I would be accused of taking up for Mark which I also didn't want to do. It's been pretty obvious for some time that, by his own admission, he stole money from the raffles, and the whole "under-funded" terminology made me want to gag a little. Just seemed best to stay out of it.

I have prosecuted a number of embezzlers, and almost none of them initially intended to keep the money. They are just temporarily "borrowing" the money, and will pay it all back. Of course, the paying back almost never happens. I call it the "no harm, no foul" justification. Also, they almost never realize how much they've actually taken ... another justification/minimization process.

I prosecuted our former elected court clerk who had a gambling addiction and was forging a district judge's signature on her travel claims. I don't excuse her actions, but I did feel sorry for her. I've sent a lot of people to prison who I felt sorry for. No one is completely good, and no one is completely bad, and sometimes essentially good people do bad things. Justice must be done, but it is not always something to rejoice in. I'm guessing a lot of people won't understand that.

One more note, I saw a few comments about how none of the charities will get their money now that the legal system is involved, and at least one about "blood-sucking lawyers". In every financial crime prosecution I have ever been involved in or seen, the prosecution's number one goal was to get restitution for the victim(s). If restitution can be made up front or at least a substantial down payment on it made, it typically goes a long way in getting a reduced plea offer. In my jurisdiction that typically means probation.

No winners here ... only losers ... my thoughts and prayers go out to everyone involved (including Mark and his family).
 
S

silverbullet

Audioholic Intern
PM sent.

Read a lot of your posts there. Had some headaches with those suckers as I recall. Suckers meaning the subs.
Did I ever! I spent a lot of time kicking my own *** because I had plenty of warnings and new the gamble I was taking. However, after MUCH headache and heated emails and phone calls with Mark and Kyle, Mark did end up making things right, with me at least. By the time it was all said and done, I ended up with a pair of 850s, X-Omnis, and dual MFW with rosewood faceplates (all speakers A stock) for around $1400 shipped. That made my headache worth it in the end.

Do you still have that Christmas poem posted? I got a good chuckle out of that one. The video was brilliant as well.lol
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
Mark told me it was Kyle who was responsible for deleting posts and banning people. He told me once in an email he didn't understand the entire process and not to blame him...:rolleyes:
Kyle may well have, but under whose direction? As MLS not understanding the entire process, well if he didn't, he sure knew people that could do it.

Still, Craig posted about his contributions on the raffle threads which helped build momentum. Straight to the charities is how to get your tax deduction for the contribution.
This is true. He did. But to be fair, many people posted in those threads including the intended recipients. We are all guilty of seeing the glass more than half full in those cases. In retrospect, I think we see it quite differently.
 
Stereodude

Stereodude

Senior Audioholic
Mark told me it was Kyle who was responsible for deleting posts and banning people. He told me once in an email he didn't understand the entire process and not to blame him...:rolleyes:
:rolleyes: Considering nothing could get done without the approval of Mark there I find that just a little hard to believe. I don't think the employees could use the restroom without MLS's approval, but I'm sure banning and deleting posts was different. ;)
 
m-fine

m-fine

Audioholic
Did employees like Kyle know about the business problems (undelivered products, bad amps, etc.)? Sure - dealing with them was part of Kyle's primary job. Did Kyle know about owed refunds (many of which are technically "personal" debts of Mark's or Graham Company's)? Probably the ones we know about, at least, and possibly more. Did Kyle know about how much money Mark had really stolen from the raffles? Impossible to know, but since he didn't even work there when most of the theft took place it seems unlikely - unless Mark had decided to be honest with Kyle about the raffles, which would seem to be out of character for Mark.
With Mark himself admitting to stealing from 2 of the raffles and all the info posted and deleted on the AV123 forum as well as other forums that the employees read, they must have known some of it. I am not sure any of us knew how much money and how many raffles were involved, but we all knew part of the story. I am not sure how someone could delete posts and ban people without first reading the posts and knowing what it was that they were censoring.
 
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