DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

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J

jacobms1

Enthusiast
Mac, I'll tell you what I think and it doesn't just apply to you. It applies to anyone whose got a friend, a good friend, and they see that friend accused of certain things. There's disbelief. Maybe it was a misunderstanding. An oversight. Some kind of a snafu. You think it must've been just that one thing. And then people start coming forward. And you see these people were good friends of Mark too. There's this disconnect after all you know the man enough to consider him your friend. You've seen him step forward when a customer had a problem and make it right even when there was no compelling legal obligation to make it so. It doesn't make sense. But you hear more stories. Stories of one organization not getting their money. A man with an ill child. A good friend whose best friend in the world...his best friend...was dying of cancer and it wasn't years left on his clock.

And you think, something terrible must've also happened in Mark's life or the business. He made a mistake. He'll make good. He's Mark. The guy who bought all those meals, hosted dinners, brought you into his life, showed you pictures, always was friendly. There was always an excuse. He was sick, the factory screwed up, the containers were late, the orders got mixed up. There was always a story that one could hang a hat on and say, well, once that's taken care of so will the rest.

But then other people step forward and you hear how no one got their money back for RSL-II's. How people have worthless coupons. Products they paid for and have waited for over two years. You hear stories from people who got refund checks that bounced drawn on the same bank as theirs. You hear about a guy who he signed a 40K contract with him and Mark stiffed him.

And you maybe think to yourself, this is real personal stuff. It really ought to be handled in private. What's a jerk like me brining this stuff up for? But then you hear they've been trying to do it privately. They've emailed, written, texted, called, and even met face to face. They've tried for weeks, months, years.

And then you hear stories about employees, business partners, business investors, even the mothers of friends who invested, and no one has seen any total fulfillment of what they're owed. Oh, some have been paid a little. Some that he needs because at this point there's a lot of people who won't do business with him and if they do, it's cash up front.

You hear what you think is pure, unfounded speculation about where the money could've gone. And what good friend wouldn't think people are piling on making stories up? That they had secret agendas. They worked for competitors. They won't name names. Produce records. Shooting wildly in the dark.

Mac, I'm not saying you're wrong for being his friend even at this point no more than I can tell a mother not to love her son if he committed a murder. The stuff that's come out, and the stuff that hasn't come out yet, the sheer scale of it may make you see things differently. It may cause you to question yourself and your ability to evaluate people. It may not with respect to you considering him a friend.

Mark is not my friend. We've been friendly but largely in a peripheral kind of way. I look at this and I see a man who has manipulated people. A man who may well believe his lies and promises. I see a con man like none other that I can think of with respect to the audio business. I say to myself, why did 12 poor individuals cough up 72K and folks like Wally Liederman, Bascom King, Arnie Nudell not suffer any financial hardship? I see a man whose vision is not best carried out by him but must be under new management. I see other ID companies worrying somewhat if the stain that exists in Colorado has discolored their doorsteps.

By no stretch do I begrudge your friendship. If what I see is the measure of your friendship, I'd consider any person who is your friend to be lucky. Regardless though, Mac, as I'm safely able to, I'll release more information. If you don't know by now, and you should, I cross check a lot of stuff on the backend.

My best to you, Mac.

This might be the best post in the entire thread.
 
D

Das

Enthusiast
All the contrasting traits that are portryaed of this man are typical of the personality of a confidence trickster. He is noted as friendly, likeable, charming but yet is accused of such immoral and illegal activities. Conmen are also calculting, persuasive and exploit such human traits as greed (pre-order for such a great deal), honesty (stealing money from raffles for the less fortunate/sick people), compassion (playing the victim) and faith (stringing customers along for years).
= Sociopath

It has been said of him on his own forum, the guy believes his own lies, he is textbook. Even people who once trusted him, but are now on the other side, comment that they really believe it pains him to see people hurt by his actions, and when something isn't right he really wants to make it right. He may truly feel this way, but he sure isn't taking action to make it happen, it's all in his mind.


Anyhow, great thread people, and Audioholics you are doing the A/V community, especially the newcomer's, a big favor by keeping this discussion open and not censoring as AV123 and others have done. Sadly the information discussed here is based in truth.
 
MinusTheBear

MinusTheBear

Audioholic Ninja
Well, you guys may be right about all the sociopath, money hungry etc stuff but I don't see enough evidence of that to draw that type of conclusion. By and large, when the speakers are delivered they are, imo, terrific value for the money. Hardly the mo of a sociopathic con man is it, I mean, delivering value for money?

For me, with what I know now, the only thing that is really nasty and totally un-ethical is the raffle money"underfunding". In second place comes lying about delivery of pre-paid product.
Relate this to the concept of a pyramid with the people having pre-paid for products and yet have no product nor refund to speak of being at the top.
 
Jed M

Jed M

Full Audioholic
It is a scam, similar to the en vogue Ponzi, because it gets to a point where it is unsustainable due the fact that it requires an impossible amount of new investors. Basically those who get in last lose. Here is a wiki definition. They can explain it a lot better than me, but I don't know if it really describes whats going on at AV123. I agree its illegal, but it doesn't fit the definition of pyramid. Ponzi would be closer IMO but I don't think that is a good description either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_scheme
 
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T

Tex-amp

Senior Audioholic
I have not read all of the 140 pages in this thread, but certain things stand out for me. There seems to be a cultivation of a Cult of Personality early on, and the CoP was constantly being fed by the most extreme supporters. Should a person be a sociopath and narcissist, the chances of any meaningful changes in behaviour are zero. Do not expect much alteration from this type of person, if nothing has come to date. Examine deeds, not words.
The mental health community pretty much considers narcissism and borderline personality disorder mostly untreatable because the those with those issues can almost never see anything wrong with their behavior due to how much they love themselves. It is always someone else out to get them, from jealousy, in their minds.
 
T

Tex-amp

Senior Audioholic
By and large, when the speakers are delivered they are, imo, terrific value for the money. Hardly the mo of a sociopathic con man is it, I mean, delivering value for money?

What did you compare them to? Did you do any blind testing?

Okay, I'll put it out there that I've never been sold on av123 products' value for the money. This whole debacle has me wondering just how dirty the audio industry is. Are good reviews in exchange for ad dollars and comp equipment for reviewers?

Anyone remember the 740s measuring terribly for Stereophile and av123 claiming the speakers they measured where photo specimens and not "working speakers" then quietly discontinued them a few months later?
 
N

NicolasKL

Full Audioholic
Okay, I'll put it out there that I've never been sold on av123 products' value for the money. This whole debacle has me wondering just how dirty the audio industry is. Are good reviews in exchange for ad dollars and comp equipment for reviewers?
I've recently wondered about this very thing with regards to AV123. You take a relatively affordable speaker with a nice finish, get a decent review or two and a handful of fanboys and you're off to the races. The speakers could be somewhat subpar but placebo effect, herd mentality, and not wanting to think that you just spent 3 grand on something that isn't that great takes care of the rest.

There are thousands of people out there that think their new subwoofer power cable is amazing and makes a night and day difference in the sound, it's not very difficult to imagine the same sort of thing happening with speakers.
 
C

cschang

Audioholic Chief
while measurements are not everything, you do notice that there are not many third party measurements of AV123 speakers....especially when it comes to distortion.
 
Jed M

Jed M

Full Audioholic
AV123 makes a lot of stuff. I think they make some really nice stuff and some others that aren't so great. As much as I dislike what is going on over there, I wouldn't trade my LS-6's for anything at the moment. Will there be a time when I try something new, well we all are in this hobby so we all know the answer to that. I thought the X-Head was quite frankly pretty bad. The UFW-12 is lacking big time. I never have been a huge fan of Rockets, but my friend chose them after he heard them compared to his old Klipsch, my old Ref 1's and a set of Paradigms. I think the MFW-15 is VASTLY overrated, especially for music, but it does great for movies. I think the new ELT bookshelves are really great values, but the center leaves something to be desired. I love the Ref series but that is discontinued. The original UFW-10 were great little subs, but they are discontinued and had reliability problems. I wouldn't say that AV123 makes junk, but obviously it is extremely subjective and I would admit that some products have been a whiff, like the x-head or x-amp. Overall I would say the products do deliver (when they work...), but that probably won't be a popular sentiment in this thread.

As far as "professional" reviews go, never trusted them. Its so obvious its pay to play for all the reviews.
 
ratso

ratso

Full Audioholic
I changed two words in that quote to illustrate my point. This is where I get off the bus: You have an affordable speaker with a nice finish getting good reviews and having satisfied clients. This is a bad thing?

I'm going to stop defending av123 for today. I've called MLS a liar and a thief. There is evidence of that. For the time being talk of him being: a "con man", a "cult leader", a "sociopath", or a clinical "narcissist" are "over the top" in my view and do give some credibility to people like Mac who say we are a lynch mob.

If compellling evidence of this stuff comes out I'll gladly change my view.
i have no dog in this hunt but this thread has been a fascinating read for me, so i have followed it. been waiting for someone to say something like this. it's funny how people get so whipped up (although i can understand the anger when someone gets ripped off). c'mon people. ponzie schemes and sociopath? how bout just he's a terrible businessman and perhaps a scam artist. waiting for a thread about him being a cannibal.
 
C

cschang

Audioholic Chief
I think the MFW-15 is VASTLY overrated, especially for music, but it does great for movies.
I agree, but would not call it "great" for movies....it is in the pack with other good subs in the price range when it comes to movies.

I never have been a huge fan of Rockets, but my friend chose them after he heard them compared to his old Klipsch, my old Ref 1's and a set of Paradigms.
The RS150 and RS750 were my first taste of Rockets. I felt they were terrible, but the hype surrounding them was incredible. It was very difficult to understand. Since then, the newer examples I have heard have been better to my ears.

I love the Ref series but that is discontinued.
AV123/MLS had very little(if any at all) to do with the design of these speakers.

As far as "professional" reviews go, never trusted them. Its so obvious its pay to play for all the reviews.
I don't lump all professional reviews together. I think it is pretty clear there are some better/worse than others.
 
MinusTheBear

MinusTheBear

Audioholic Ninja
Now does anyone here that has contributed to the raffles taking place on the AV123 forum (or the intended recepients) and/or has done business with the man feel like they have ever been conned? With raffles especially there can be a case made for this because of exploitation of kindness, trust, compassion of those individuals donating to these causes. Considering the viral hype surrounding his business and how great of a person he was (this was said all over every audio forum), there was no reason to doubt/verify that the money was not going to the intended recipients and he used it to his advantage. Now a few have verified? How does this make people feel? Calling him a conman is not a stretch in my opinion. The other stuff I'm not to sure.
 
C

cschang

Audioholic Chief
I changed two words in that quote to illustrate my point. This is where I get off the bus: You have an affordable speaker with a nice finish getting good reviews and having satisfied clients. This is a bad thing?
I am not sure anybody said that it was bad. There are satisfied clients with even less.

I'm going to stop defending av123 for today. I've called MLS a liar and a thief. There is evidence of that. For the time being talk of him being: a "con man", a "cult leader", a "sociopath", or a clinical "narcissist" are "over the top" in my view and do give some credibility to people like Mac who say we are a lynch mob.

If compellling evidence of this stuff comes out I'll gladly change my view.
I think Schifty could fit the definition of a con man:
From wikipedia:
Confidence tricks exploit typical human qualities like greed, dishonesty, vanity, honesty, compassion, or a naïve expectation of good faith on the part of the con artist.
Just as there is no typical profile for swindlers, neither is there one for their victims. Virtually anyone can fall prey to fraudulent crimes. … Certainly victims of high-yield investment frauds may possess a level of greed which exceeds their caution as well as a willingness to believe what they want to believe. However, not all fraud victims are greedy, risk-taking, self-deceptive individuals looking to make a quick dollar. Nor are all fraud victims naive, uneducated, or elderly.[2]
Confidence tricksters often rely on the greed and dishonesty of the mark, who may attempt to out-cheat the con artist, only to discover that he or she has been manipulated into losing from the very beginning. This is such a general principle in confidence tricks that there is a saying among con men that "you can't cheat an honest man."[3]
The confidence trickster often works with one or more accomplices called shills, who help manipulate the mark into accepting the con man's plan. In a traditional confidence trick, the mark is led to believe that he will be able to win money or some other prize by doing some task. The accomplices may pretend to be random strangers who have benefited from successfully performing the task.
 
Jed M

Jed M

Full Audioholic
I pre-paid for the x-head ( which isn't terribly good) and received it. I sent the first flawed unit back and received a new and improved one as promised.
For the record I have never heard the "new and improved one" so take my comments with a grain of salt. I had the original with the hiss and that is what I was talking about.

I agree a lot of what is being said is hyperbole. This thread is probably now going the way MLS wants because it is starting to look like there are serious haters. There is enough on the table already that we don't need to drum up wild speculation. Slamming their products has nothing to do with these issues and it looks extremely petty considering what is already out there.
 
N

NicolasKL

Full Audioholic
I changed two words in that quote to illustrate my point. This is where I get off the bus: You have an affordable speaker with a nice finish getting good reviews and having satisfied clients. This is a bad thing?
I never said it was a bad thing, I just said it doesn't necessarily mean that the speakers are quite all they're cracked up to be. We all know placebo can be huge in the audio world.
 
droht

droht

Full Audioholic
I'll offer my take on products I have owned from av123:

Ref1/100. Excellent speakers, but not sure if they lived up to MSRP of $1200 for standard finish 1s (nor did they really sell at it). The 1s need some TLC and proper amplification to shine in a 2 channel set up. Add the 100 center and they are outstanding for HT. Since these are not really av123 speakers I guess it is a moot point anyway.

Rocket 250MKIIs. Good speakers, but definitely not at list price, which was $700 iirc.

x-cs and x-ls classics. Very high value speakers, delivering good sound quality and very nice finish. The combo of sound and looks is unmatched imo, though I can't say I've heard and seen everything in the category. Problem here is that list price was apparently too low, due to some BOM issues out of plant in Colombia. $219/pair for x-ls and $139@ for x-cs. Those speakers are no longer in production.

x-sub. Good option for ~$200. Not earth shattering bass, but good for a small or second system, and decent for 2.1 music set up. Good size/shape for placement flexibility, and same great finish as other x stuff. Some reliability issues.

ulw-10. Very good "little" sub. Capable in HT app if you are not used to a real/larger sub. Really excels with music. Serious reliability issues prevent me from considering it high value for $400. The "new and improved"' amps may go lower than original amp, but I prefer the latter.

Overall, what I liked most about av123 speaker offerings are no longer being produced, and the very impressive Ref stuff is no longer being sold through them. While the planned waveguide speaker and LS-4 might be interesting, I will not consider them, except maybe on the used market some day.
 
C

cschang

Audioholic Chief
Gonk....just read the latest posts on your thread at AV123. You are good!
 
M

mziegler

Audioholic
This is not in response to Jed or anyone else.

It is fun to sit around and play armchair psychoanalyst--I do too, mostly in private; most of us are fascinated by abnormal psychology. It does, however, add a level of distraction and, to some, mitigate the severity of the observable actions. People describe MLS as having ADD, for example, which places his actions in the "he can't help himself" category. I think this type of thinking distracts us from the most important issues.

The theft of the raffle money is enough of a fact, to which MLS admitted. Some people think that the matter will be closed if he ever returns the money. I do not buy that at all. I think there should be legal consequences. There will always be business consequences, and this is right too. As for forgiveness, I have no relationship with him, and I am more than a little disgusted with the style of public aplogies the media demands. For others, those directly affected through the raffles, or those who have/had a personal connection to him, that is up to them.

There is so much left to comment on -- the refunds owed, the lies, etc. Looking again at the nature of av123 is also justified--what looked like mere hype now looks like a con job. There is some investigative work going on that is resulting in some very interesting information that will and should, in my opinion, come out.

Others have commented, and I will repeat, the ironies here. MLS was quite saavy in using the internet to market his company. The internet is also the tool of his problems. There has been excess on both sides. On the whole, thread like this are necessary since there is an element of amnesia on the internet--untill the issues with the company are resolved, it is important to keep them front center as a counter-balance to the marketing.

edit: write a long-winded post, and others slip in.
 
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