Bryston Model T Floorstanding Speakers

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Socketman

Enthusiast
they still burn gas and ignite with a spark . The original statement by Gt was that axiom uses the same old technology, and I say so do pretty much all others, you cant put a planar or ribbon in a cell phone or clock radio. Still the same basic principle car or loudspeaker.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
When I noticed there was a new post I wanted to check it out in case there might be some new reviews, findings etc. about those speakers. Instead it always ended up in the same old back and forth between two camps, that's sad... and I wish Bryston had linked up with something less controversial.
 
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Socketman

Enthusiast
When I noticed there was a new post I wanted to check it out in case there might be some new reviews, findings etc. about those speakers. Instead it always ended up in the same old back and forth between two camps, that's sad... and I wish Bryston had linked up with something less controversial.
And I agree with you peng , but anytime someone posts a link of positive info such as review or opinion , along comes the same detractors (they know who they are) and the attack is on. It seems to be a theme on this site, such as the labeling of people under their avatars simply because the management disagrees with their point of view. Seriously name calling and bullying is so grade school.
 
monkish54

monkish54

Audioholic General
All loudspeakers are still designed on the basic principles of a design patented in 1898 by oliver lodge. An electromechanical transducer. With every speaker manufacturer working with the same basic design principle there really is only so much any one of them can do. Perhaps GT has some input that thiele or paradigm or quad etc could benefit from since he seems to be a speaker expert , though I have not heard of him short of his complaints about axiom.
I'm not sure how many loudspeakers you have been subjected to, but there is a copious amount of variation.

KEF Blade: True point source loudspeaker

KEF Muon: Cardioid bass pattern; concentric driver point source.

Martian Logan CLX: Line source electrostatic

Acapella High Violoncello II: Weird horn ion tweeter thing.

Philharmonic 2: Open baffle midrange; monopole tweeter and woofer

There are MANY, MANY, MANY different designs one can create--even with the same 3 drivers. No company gets a pass at recycling designs (not saying they are..I haven't looked..) simply because "there really is only so much any one of them can do." They can do much more than you give them credit for...

You might consider getting your facts straight. Lodge patented a cone loudspeaker, but it was some Bell Labs guys that did a moving coil version of a cone speaker. Furthermore, electrostatics, ribbons, planars, and the AMT designs are completely different, so your statement about "all" loudspeakers descending from Lodge's concept is just plain incorrect.
Not to mention those SWEET ion tweeters. They sound pretty amazing! :D
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Furthermore it's like saying that all automobiles are designed on the same principle that they have for over 100 years. Yes, they've got an engine, four wheels, and brakes but you're not going to see me driving a model T to work any time soon.

EDIT: Looks like fuzz beat me to the exact same point. DARN YOU
Great minds think alike :D
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
And I agree with you peng , but anytime someone posts a link of positive info such as review or opinion , along comes the same detractors (they know who they are) and the attack is on. It seems to be a theme on this site, such as the labeling of people under their avatars simply because the management disagrees with their point of view. Seriously name calling and bullying is so grade school.
The labels under the names are linked to your rep score. If you've got red bars and a certain title under the rep bar, it is the fault of those who negatively repped the person (although the person with the title probably had something to do with it), not management.
 
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biggarthomas

Enthusiast
I get a kick out of these message boards. They have become something akin to warring principalities. Somebody lobs an accusation or baits a trap and there is a pile-on. Occasionally "fighters" from an "enemy" territory venture into the domain of another princeling and lobs a couple of zingers only to be sharply rebuffed. Nobody is really working to convince anyone else just trying to score points. If we were really working to convince some of us would get together with our favourite speakers and have a nice evening listening to music with some Scotch or whatever else floats your boat.
 
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Socketman

Enthusiast
The labels under the names are linked to your rep score. If you've got red bars and a certain title under the rep bar, it is the fault of those who negatively repped the person (although the person with the title probably had something to do with it), not management.
Thanks fuzz for clearing that up. Still not a nice feature in my opinion, its akin to 2 kids fighting and saying he touched me, he touched me first. Things should be settled with discussion and facts, not opinions and innuendo's.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
I get a kick out of these message boards. They have become something akin to warring principalities. Somebody lobs an accusation or baits a trap and there is a pile-on. Occasionally "fighters" from an "enemy" territory venture into the domain of another princeling and lobs a couple of zingers only to be sharply rebuffed. Nobody is really working to convince anyone else just trying to score points. If we were really working to convince some of us would get together with our favourite speakers and have a nice evening listening to music with some Scotch or whatever else floats your boat.
Get togethers happen all the time, but they're hard to organize. Meeting other members and listening to each other's systems happens as well, but both require that you're in the vicinity of each other.
 
gtpsuper24

gtpsuper24

Full Audioholic
All loudspeakers are still designed on the basic principles of a design patented in 1898 by oliver lodge. An electromechanical transducer. With every speaker manufacturer working with the same basic design principle there really is only so much any one of them can do. Perhaps GT has some input that thiele or paradigm or quad etc could benefit from since he seems to be a speaker expert , though I have not heard of him short of his complaints about axiom.
There is much more you can do to design a loudspeaker. I asked one loudspeaker designer in a pm about how they feel about using a stiff aluminum woofer as a midrange driver with no filters on it, like Axiom uses in the M60 and M80 and which Ian never refuted when I asked him (but never mentioned Axioms name in the pm).

it's possible to run a mid w/o filters, but it tends to have to be a driver with a combination of two things: A cheap part with an unintentionally limited bandwidth, and a luckly or well-designed limited bandwidth that allows the driver's motor inductance - which is very lossy and full of distortion when it's cheap and limited - that allows some semblance of built-in filtering. I can't see myself ever attempting it because the part tends to be really cheap and poor sounding and because there's really no way to ensure a good overall response. I can all but guarantee a strict analysis of the system its in shows bad behaviors.

How about developing a true midrange driver? Better higher power handling tweeters? Truncated frames, new cabinet designs, re-exam the current crossovers? ect.....

I think you really can't see any of a speakers short coming because of just pure loyalty. And some Axiom fans just pure lack of any experience with any modern speaker so of course Axiom is going to sound pretty good against a pair of 30 yr old speakers.
 
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exlabdriver

Guest
A post from a little while ago where you admired Axiom's stable production line policy:

IMO Axiom all the way, by far my favorite speakers. My biggest pet peeve is when speaker companys comes out with a new model line and before you can even piece together your system, they discountinue them with a totally new line, and your stuck searching Ebay and classifieds hoping for something. I was in this situation with Boston Acoustics VR line. Axiom only does small refreshes every few years or so, which means that the V2s work and blend fine with the newer V3s

TAM
 
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Socketman

Enthusiast
Gt you just keep regurgitating the same thing, carefull you may choke on it. Apparently who ever you contacted see's things differently from other speaker manufacturers , why not run over to the tekton thread and tell Erick how it is done, he uses 3 tweeters and guitar speakers. There Is no right way or perfect way to build anything, just the engineer/manufacturers own way. I will say it again, if you know so much start sharing YOUR ideas or you could just quit your assembly line job and start your own speaker factory and put everyone else out of business.
 
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Grador

Audioholic Field Marshall
What is it with axiom/tekton and either bringing the worst out of people or bringing out the worst people. Lets all play nice here and quit it with the insults.
 
gtpsuper24

gtpsuper24

Full Audioholic
Apparently who ever you contacted see's things differently from other speaker manufacturers , why not run over to the tekton thread and tell Erick how it is done, he uses 3 tweeters and guitar speakers. There Is no right way or perfect way to build anything, just the engineer/manufacturers own way.
Never mentioned anything about dual tweeters in that PM. Only about running a midrange in a 3way without filters. I can tell you that Aperion, Paradigm and many others don't omit filters from there midranges in the 3 way models. Axiom is in the minority when it comes to speaker design and they use that anechoic chamber as an excuse to throw together what ever they want and say its works and everyone else is wrong.

There is also the issue with Tekton that your crossing over a tweeter too low and crossing over a 10" woofer too high. The woofer will begin to beam and the tweeters start to break up. There is a reason that typically you see compression tweeters (horn or wave guided load) when using large diameter "pro" drivers.

Axiom is in the minority when it comes to many of there designs. Many on AVS and here have pointed those issues out, Bill Fitzmaurice who is a fairly well respected engineer who by the way never endorses any commercial speakers on any forum, has commented on design issues with what axiom is doing. But of course he was just vilified for it by some of the less savy Axiom owners.

you could just quit your assembly line job and start your own speaker factory and put everyone else out of business.
I've been thinking of starting a Kool Aid factory, people just love Kool Aid :rolleyes:
 
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monkish54

monkish54

Audioholic General
Running a midrange in a 3way without filters.
Should never be done. (I hesitate to say never, but 99.999999% of the time it's a very, very bad design practice). Allowing a midrange driver to play 20-20 is insane in any product over $75....

The woofer will begin to beam and the tweeters start to break up. There is a reason that typically you see compression tweeters (horn or wave guided load) when using large diameter "pro" drivers.
The tweeter won't break up, so much as it will "run out of gas".
 
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Socketman

Enthusiast
I really am not sure where you get your ideas from. There are so many speaker manufacturers using aluminum cone drivers for both mid bass and bass I couldn't begin to list all of them but I will give you a few and also let you know about a thing called Google. Canton-Seas- Paradigm "S" Series- Aurum Cantus- Thiel CS-2. Aluminum is a very desirable and effective material for use as a electromechanical transducer. Neither you nor I have any idea what changes a speaker company implements during its life span since I doubt they deem it necessary to apprise all of its customers of the changes they implement. No one speaker works for every set of ears in every room, anyone with a bit of audio knowledge knows the effect and importance a room has on a loudspeaker. Many articles have been written about room treatment. I realize you owned axioms, they didn't work for you in your room, but quite honestly the human auditory memory is severely limited at best yet you go on and on about speakers you haven't heard in over a year, speakers I might add you once praised. Further more Andrew Welker is a highly reagarded speaker and amplifier designer, Bryston is also a well regarded brand and they both seem disagree with your opinion, which that's all it is since you are not a speaker designer. Reading a cookbook doesn't make you a cook, nor does reading bits on the internet about speakers make you a speaker designer. No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn't good until it sounds good. – Dr. Floyd Toole To me and many others we feel our axioms sound good, are they the best? No. are there better speakers Yes? Are there worse speakers, absolutely .
 
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Socketman

Enthusiast
Should never be done. (I hesitate to say never, but 99.999999% of the time it's a very, very bad design practice). Allowing a midrange driver to play 20-20 is insane in any product over $75....



The tweeter won't break up, so much as it will "run out of gas".
What axiom speaker does this????
 
monkish54

monkish54

Audioholic General
What axiom speaker does this????
Millennia M50 v3 Floorstanding Speakers | Axiom Audio

M3 Bookshelf Speakers | Axiom Audio

http://www.axiomaudio.com/m60-floorstanding-speakers

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=326775


That was noted in the 1K loudspeaker blind listening test.

The M60v2 employs 4 drivers with a 1" titanium tweeter, 5.25" midrange and two 6.5" woofers. They are triple vortex ported (2 rear / 1 front) with a claimed extension down to 37 Hz (-3dB). The tweeter has a 2kHz 12dB/octave HP filter while the midrange has no crossover at all relying on the natural acoustical rolloff of the driver (12dB/octave) and small sealed enclosure to provide more bass output above the tuning frequency of the ports.
 
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S

Socketman

Enthusiast
M50 and M3 are not 3 way speakers, the M60 is V3 now specs show it as having appropriate crossover.
 
monkish54

monkish54

Audioholic General
I really am not sure where you get your ideas from. There are so many speaker manufacturers using aluminum cone drivers for both mid bass and bass I couldn't begin to list all of them but I will give you a few and also let you know about a thing called Google.
What are you talking about?

This was his statement:

I asked one loudspeaker designer in a pm about how they feel about using a stiff aluminum woofer as a midrange driver with no filters on it
This is an awful practice in general, let alone for an aluminum woofer of this size (5-6").

This is what two different 5" aluminum drivers look like with no filter.
View attachment 12397



I used to have a formula for calculating breakup with pretty good accuracy but I can't remember it. I'll have to find it.
 
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