"Blu-Ray Sales Tank" Editorial

[TLS Guy]

Some people come off advocating against HD and in this day and age, I really just don't get it.

You still don't get it! No one is advocating against HD. It is the draconian DRM that goes with it. I can tell you it is killing the golden goose.

I can tell you that the non technically inclined are totally scared off. There are far too many who have had the experience with gear not working, headaches getting it to work and ridiculously fast obsolescence of high ticket items.

The cost that this DRM nonsense adds to equipment cost is probably 30 to 40% at a conservative estimate, when you add up inflated licensing fees, increased R & D expense, including extended development time, the need to provide significantly larger processing power, increased component count and therefore cost of manufacture.

If HD TV was not saddled with the above nonsense, and the consumer could buy gear at less cost with the certainty it would plug and play, and that a disc would play in any player produced over the next 20 to 25 years, BD discs and HD would sell like the proverbial hot cakes. Instead they pile on and on, now wanting to close the so called "analog window" and have any device outputting HD downgrade to component video to 480i. So someone who has a TV with component video or the wrong version of HDMI is out of luck. This is fraud. They paid for the disc.

The Hollywood crowd are just too stupid and infantile to realize they are shooting themselves in the foot again and again. Now do you understand the resistance to HD? I hope you do, because everybody, and that includes you, needs to be steaming mad about it.

I have the right enemy. It is Hollywood driving this tyranny. BAN DRM!

 

[BMXTRIX]

You still don't get it! No one is advocating against HD. It is the draconian DRM that goes with it. I can tell you it is killing the golden goose.

400% annual sales increase is not what I would consider 'killing the golden goose'.

I'm at a loss really - I have never had a disc not play for me, ever. While there are some who do have issues, there seem to be many more that put the blame on Blu-ray, when it does belong on Hollywood, but despite this being the case, people don't point their anger that direction.

Continuing: It isn't a requiement by any studio to use DRM, it is a choice they actively make. Yet, it isn't HD or BD, or any technology that is demanding it - it is the studios themselves.

While people say "It affects me and I don't like it... Pirates are the real concern!" - The reality is that many people nowadays most definitely rent moves from BB/NF and rip them and copy them and for $50 and a PC, anyone in the world can copy a DVD they don't own.

Are you advocating that Hollywood should stop the draconian practice of trying to protect what they own? Is there a better way that you know of?

 

[TLS Guy]

400% annual sales increase is not what I would consider 'killing the golden goose'.

I'm at a loss really - I have never had a disc not play for me, ever. While there are some who do have issues, there seem to be many more that put the blame on Blu-ray, when it does belong on Hollywood, but despite this being the case, people don't point their anger that direction.

Continuing: It isn't a requiement by any studio to use DRM, it is a choice they actively make. Yet, it isn't HD or BD, or any technology that is demanding it - it is the studios themselves.

While people say "It affects me and I don't like it... Pirates are the real concern!" - The reality is that many people nowadays most definitely rent moves from BB/NF and rip them and copy them and for $50 and a PC, anyone in the world can copy a DVD they don't own.

Are you advocating that Hollywood should stop the draconian practice of trying to protect what they own? Is there a better way that you know of?

400% of a little is still a little.

In China the studios have totally lost the war with the pirates. So they are now competing in price with the pirated copies.

Next This DRM DOES NOT WORK. The pirates crack it. Fighting them with DRM just causes all the problems I outlined in the previous post. I have found out that if I wanted to I could copy BD all I want for little investment.

Steve Jobst pushed DRM free downloads on itunes. More and more majors are on board, and I understand that it has been healthy to their bottom lines.

So the solution is to sell product at a price were going to the trouble to copy is not worth it. That is the solution they have started to adopt in China.

Now this approach would really stimulate the economy. It would be a boon to manufacturers and send sales right out of the ball park.

And by the way these DRM problems do get people in a tangle, including members of this forum.

 

[ParkerAudio]

DRM seems to be the equivalent of antigun laws in this country. Crack down as much as you want on guns, tell the citizens they can't have them, melt them by the millions, but the motivated criminal will find a way to get a gun.
Same with DRM, you have a copy protection that is screwing things up for people that are spending thousands for their favorite movies in HD, but the "bad guys," whether it be the people in China or the guy down the block, continue to be able to crack the code. These individuals are far more motivated then the programmers/engineers that work for Sony, Panasaonic, take your pick.

 

[BMXTRIX]

400% of a little is still a little.

Is that an arguement? 400% pay increase when you make a little is still a little? 400% more vacation time when you only get a few days off a year is still a 'little'? 400% increase from .5% in 2006 to 2% in 2007 (of total disc revenue) is significant in a multi-billion dollar market. Likewise, significant continued growth is significant.

In China the studios have totally lost the war with the pirates. So they are now competing in price with the pirated copies.

China has some of the lowest quality videos in the world, and their 'give up' attitude has cost them the ability to have decent films from reputable manufacturers within their own country.

Next This DRM DOES NOT WORK. The pirates crack it. Fighting them with DRM just causes all the problems I outlined in the previous post. I have found out that if I wanted to I could copy BD all I want for little investment.

Full copies of discs - 40GB a disc - that's 12 movies you illegally pirate for the investment of a 500GB hard drive. Congrats - it also make you, and others, a criminal. Don't let me or the law stop you (or others) from doing this all the time with DVDs though. This isn't about pirates, who are dealt with far better through legal channels - it is ENTIRELY about making it difficult for consumers to easily copy and rip movies to their hard drives at home.

Steve Jobst pushed DRM free downloads on itunes. More and more majors are on board, and I understand that it has been healthy to their bottom lines.

Absolutely - make music highly portable, and it will be more appealing to consumers. But, BD movies, once ripped, aren't really portable - they live on hard drives - so the only benefit is pirating, nothing else.

So the solution is to sell product at a price were going to the trouble to copy is not worth it. That is the solution they have started to adopt in China.

And we see top shelf movies from China as the result? No, not at all.

Now this approach would really stimulate the economy. It would be a boon to manufacturers and send sales right out of the ball park.

DVD pricing keeps going down, yet sales keep dropping off... I think that your hypothesis needs some work.

And by the way these DRM problems do get people in a tangle, including members of this forum.

Yes, absolutely, and I think it sucks that the manufacturers have put out products which aren't easily upgradable and reliably upgradable across the board. I do think Ethernet should have been a requirement out of the gate for these products - and further, I would be happy with discs I own or rent validating online to protect the content creators.

Pirating of discs costs studios millions, if not billions in revenue annually, and your solution is to condemn the studios and praising the theives. You'll have to excuse me if I'm not on board with that mentality. On the other hand, DRM should be transparent to end users who are just trying to play discs at home - and the fact that it isn't for some really does suck and I hope CE manufacturers that provided low-quality players get what they deserve for doing so.

 

[ParkerAudio]

If I was living in a different country, pirating videos, bluray coupled with a great LCD tv and a HD camcorder, business would be good. Improved picture quality, nice file size, being recorded to a HD camcorder with a flash card, very easy to regulate the size of the file. Not concerned about my government, because the last thing my foreign government is concerned about is Hollywood fat cats. And if I did want to rip it off the bluray disk, rip out the extras, and degrade the file quality a little bit, bam, easily fits on a double sided dvd, or a two disc set if you would like. Wait a little bit for bluray disks to drop in price then I can easily copy it to another, or perhaps a cheap jumpdrive. It is only going to be easier for people in foreign countries to make these copies, and make them better than ever.

 

[TLS Guy]

If I was living in a different country, pirating videos, bluray coupled with a great LCD tv and a HD camcorder, business would be good. Improved picture quality, nice file size, being recorded to a HD camcorder with a flash card, very easy to regulate the size of the file. Not concerned about my government, because the last thing my foreign government is concerned about is Hollywood fat cats. And if I did want to rip it off the bluray disk, rip out the extras, and degrade the file quality a little bit, bam, easily fits on a double sided dvd, or a two disc set if you would like. Wait a little bit for bluray disks to drop in price then I can easily copy it to another, or perhaps a cheap jumpdrive. It is only going to be easier for people in foreign countries to make these copies, and make them better than ever.

That's the whole crux of the issue. and actually preventing consumers making copies of software they legitimately bought for their own use, flagrantly violates Federal fair use laws.

This DRm is highly complex and adds a totally unnecessary layer of complexity and expense to products. The consumer should not have to bear the expense of DRM for the fat cats in Hollywood. In fact it is subsidiaries of Hollywood studios, like digital protection corp, that dream up and write these poorly conceived codes. Hollywood make a big profit licensing their poorly written software, and it gives the manufacturers a giant headache and puts them to huge expense.

BMTRIX is way off base on this one. Hollywood is long overdue for a good swatting and reduced profits.

 

[Alamar]

Is this thread actually heading anywhere???

I [and almost everyone I suspect] agrees that they don't like DRM but the beancounters are always going to resist change esp. if they think it will reduce profits. As long as the beancounters have $ they'll be able to influence the right people to try to protect their business model.

While I really don't care for Sony I don't see the point of boycotting BD because I think the message that the beancounters will THINK we're sending is that we don't care about HD/Quality as opposed to thinking that the issue is price/drm/hate of Sony/whatever ....

EDIT: I don't have BD or HD-DVD yet. I don't like the price of content so I haven't bought in yet. Also note I understand that I'm also basically a hypocrite [with bad spelling] on several issues.

 

[stratman]

One thing I must say, DRM is to honest folks what strict gun control is to honest folks, the crooks break DRM, the criminals will always have an illegal use for a firearm. Maybe what is happening in China will be beneficial here, maybe the draconian overlords in Hollywood can see that DRM, as it's implemented now, just hurts the honest person, not those intent on pirating, they'll break every code.

 

[BMXTRIX]

One thing I must say, DRM is to honest folks what strict gun control is to honest folks, the crooks break DRM, the criminals will always have an illegal use for a firearm. Maybe what is happening in China will be beneficial here, maybe the draconian overlords in Hollywood can see that DRM, as it's implemented now, just hurts the honest person, not those intent on pirating, they'll break every code.

Maybe, but more likely people won't care, and will play their movies back, and learn how to connect their player to the internet, and newer players will have solid ways to upgrade firmware which the majority will do without issue at all.

In simple terms - a few complainers didn't stop DVD from including protection, and a few more won't stop it on Blu-ray. It just doesn't matter what you think because sales are very good for players and software and as HDTVs sell more and more, and HD remains the buzzword and more movies come into production, more people will buy, and DRM will become blind to the end user.

...and those who choose not to buy HD can live in their world without it and no studio will really give a darn.

For a thread about sales 'tanking' (a serious untruth), this has sure strayed into something that I could care less about.

 

[PhilCohen]

Personally,I'm content with DVD. You can buy a disc, take it home, and(Unless it is severely scratched) there is a 99% certainty that it will play. Not so for BluRay, with its' frequently revised encryption system.

The attempt to shove digital T.V. down the public's throat via legislation will backfire, and cause a significant drop in T.V. viewership. The average person in middle-America will not understand the bewildering series of updates to HDMI & BluRay disc encryption. Remember, half of American homes don't even have a computer.

These non-tech savvy people in middle America won't understand(or tolerate) the frustrations or complexities of HDTV equipment.

 

[TLS Guy]

Personally,I'm content with DVD. You can buy a disc, take it home, and(Unless it is severely scratched) there is a 99% certainty that it will play. Not so for BluRay, with its' frequently revised encryption system.

The attempt to shove digital T.V. down the public's throat via legislation will backfire, and cause a significant drop in T.V. viewership. The average person in middle-America will not understand the bewildering series of updates to HDMI & BluRay disc encryption. Remember, half of American homes don't even have a computer.

These non-tech savvy people in middle America won't understand(or tolerate) the frustrations or complexities of HDTV equipment.

That's the exact point. If BD is to be anything other than niche, it has to work for these customers.

 

[ParkerAudio]

How is this thread wandering? Bluray sales tank, the thread is about bluray sales and why they might not being doing as well. One of the obvious reasons is DRM. DRM is making a lot of players not work correctly. As stated before I am stuck with one. What do I go and do now, I tell everyone I know that Bluray is still a unstable format that requires some techinal skill to maintain. A lot of the players do not have ethernet jacks, and require an update be burned to a CD, of which I have had limited luck. This stuff has to be idiot proof to make the mainstream. I want Bluray to succeed, I have bought in, I just think this issue needs to be addressed.
You buy a new vehicle, you expect it to work, you buy a digital camera, you expect it to work, you buy a new TV you expect it to work, why shouldn't we expect Bluray to work? And this goes right to the heart of current, and more importantly future sales.

 

[BMXTRIX]

Personally,I'm content with DVD. You can buy a disc, take it home, and(Unless it is severely scratched) there is a 99% certainty that it will play. Not so for BluRay, with its' frequently revised encryption system.

Yet, PS3 owners generally see 100% of their discs play every time they put them in their machines. So, while I feel for the Samsung owners out there and others who have had issues, it isn't one that affects the majority of owners, and certainly may impact some potential buyers, but is also certainly something which 2.0 players will address better.

The attempt to shove digital T.V. down the public's throat via legislation will backfire, and cause a significant drop in T.V. viewership. The average person in middle-America will not understand the bewildering series of updates to HDMI & BluRay disc encryption. Remember, half of American homes don't even have a computer.

What are you talking about? What does digital TV have to do with Blu-ray and what does the person in middle America without a computer and without a HDTV have to do with Blu-ray?

These non-tech savvy people in middle America won't understand(or tolerate) the frustrations or complexities of HDTV equipment.

Why, I bet those peopel without electricity won't be buying Blu-ray either! The format will definitely fail without their support!

I mean, Bubba Huckabee and his 32 kids on welfare in the midwest are clearly to dumb to understand the Internet and all those crazy shenanigans that go with HDTV.

I think maybe that's why there are things called a 'target audience' - and millions of families with PS3s are definitely the first wave of that target audience, with a path that leads to more stable hardware and better software interaction.

None of which has stopped me from enjoying a single movie (I repeat) on my PS3 without issue.

 

[PhilCohen]

Yet, PS3 owners generally see 100% of their discs play every time they put them in their machines. So, while I feel for the Samsung owners out there and others who have had issues, it isn't one that affects the majority of owners, and certainly may impact some potential buyers, but is also certainly something which 2.0 players will address better.


What are you talking about? What does digital TV have to do with Blu-ray and what does the person in middle America without a computer and without a HDTV have to do with Blu-ray?


Why, I bet those peopel without electricity won't be buying Blu-ray either! The format will definitely fail without their support!

I mean, Bubba Huckabee and his 32 kids on welfare in the midwest are clearly to dumb to understand the Internet and all those crazy shenanigans that go with HDTV.

I think maybe that's why there are things called a 'target audience' - and millions of families with PS3s are definitely the first wave of that target audience, with a path that leads to more stable hardware and better software interaction.

None of which has stopped me from enjoying a single movie (I repeat) on my PS3 without issue.

What does digital T.V. have to do with BluRay? Answer:both employ technology that creates operational complexity that is beyond the comprehension of the typical consumer in middle America. And the aggressive copy protection technologies built into both Digital T.V. & BluRay will create unreliability that will cause mainstream consumers to either turn away in disgust, or not buy the hardware to begin with. Who wants something that is an unreliable pain in the butt? These new technologies give the entertainment industries unprecidented control over how people use their own equipment in their homes, and certainly, the entertainment industries will exploit this to the detriment of the consumer. As far as I'm concerned, digital T.V. is an entertainment industry scam designed to put an end to consumer video recording.

 

[toon12]

I found this editorial at The Inquirer. It basically states that Sony has managed to destroy any possibility of high definition DVD having much of a future. I can't say that I disagree. Like most consumers I refuse to scrap my older HDTV and receiver on the alter of DRM. Yes I do enjoy my PS3 but as a game console and I refuse to pay $30 for a BD video. Anyway agree or disagree it's a good rant and an interesting read. Full Text

These posts are hilarious. The only thing missing was replacing the s in Sony with a $!!
DRM? How does that affect 99% of the public who just pop the blu-ray into their ps3 and play it? (ps3's are some 90 to 95% of the blu-ray players out there).
If you don't want to scrap your older HDTV and receiver, then don't. How has sony affected this decision one way or the other?
Anyways, HD-DVD is dead, blu-ray is the winner. Adopt it or don't, but don't start predicting it will die because of super-duper upconversion, or flashcards, or direct downloads, because it won't. That all just sounds like sour grapes!!

 

[ParkerAudio]

Toon, maybe you are not reading the posts, DRM is one of the main reason that discs aren't playing on bluray players, and is one of the reasons your Bluray player has to update. It is not just Samsung bluray players, check out all reviews concerning bluray players at Amazon, most of them have issues with compatibility.
Yes the PS3 is fantastic, why not build them all with bulit in wireless? That component is relatively cheap. However, the general public doesn't want to navigate through the menus of a game console to get the update, or play a movie. The PS3 is a perfect example of how it should work, but apparently not even Sony can replicate this perfection in their players. By the way only 23% of people that have a PS3 are using it to play Bluray, that is up from 17% last December, and that was after a expensive campaign by Sony. Yes PS3 represents a significant portion of Bluray players, but they aren't being used as such. Standalone players, are the work horses.

Simple solution is to put in the wireless connection, or allow it to hook up to a telephone line, or ethernet connection, allow it to update as soon as you turn it on, nothing to think about or press.

 

[jostenmeat]

I admire consumer advocates, and though I know nothing about DRM, I'm sure its an issue worth fighting over.

However, I am one very happy owner of both BD and HD. Panasonic and Toshiba. I jumped into the AV world VERY LATE, and had very few dvd's to begin with. I have no problems at all. Am I a rarity?

The big difference between someone like me, and someone who watches DVD's only, is that I am enjoying native high definition video and audio.

From this newer AV consumer's POV, the biggest obstacle that I see is the prices of the players. As for the software, I've probably paid an average of $15 a disc (though maybe that's climbing now). More than a used (or perhaps new) DVD for sure, but well worth the premium, IMHO.

I honestly have no idea how DRM is negatively affecting my enjoyment, whatsoever. No handshake issues that I am experiencing. No audio dropouts. No video dropouts. Just great colors and sharpness as native 1080p, with lossless audio. 480i DVDs won't look so hot on my enormous screen. But, I don't want to pay $4,000 for a nice Lumagen VP, or anything like that.

I just pop in a BD, fire up the projector, grab a beer.. and just

 

[BMXTRIX]

Yes the PS3 is fantastic, why not build them all with bulit in wireless?

You're out of date - all PS3s currently made have wireless built in. Only the first gen. 20GB models didn't have this.

However, the general public doesn't want to navigate through the menus of a game console to get the update, or play a movie.

The general public - or you? In fact, you aren't even aware of how the PS3 works are you when you say such a thing...

The PS3 will automatically start disc playback as soon as the disc is inserted into the player. My wife walks up, sticks a disc in, and that's it. So, what navigation is it she needs to do?

As for updates, I can press the left arrow a few times and the down/up arrow once or twice to something that says "CHECK FOR UPDATES" - it's as easy as it was on the Toshiba players which everyone swore by for sure.

The PS3 is a perfect example of how it should work, but apparently not even Sony can replicate this perfection in their players.

Yes, I agree completely, and I wonder what people would say if Sony released the PS3 in a component looking box with IR control?

By the way only 23% of people that have a PS3 are using it to play Bluray, that is up from 17% last December, and that was after a expensive campaign by Sony.

This isn't even close to the numbers that have been reported recently. About 23% use it full time perhaps for BD playback, but over 85% have actually played a BD movie on it.

Yes PS3 represents a significant portion of Bluray players, but they aren't being used as such. Standalone players, are the work horses.

That is provenly, and pantendly false. A 1500% increase in disc sales (according to WB) from last year, while only a 400% increase in hardware since last year indicates that the PS3s already on the market are doing a very marked job of increasing sales of software, far moreso than stand alone players - as of right now.

Simple solution is to put in the wireless connection, or allow it to hook up to a telephone line, or ethernet connection, allow it to update as soon as you turn it on, nothing to think about or press.

I'm in 100% agreement on this, and think that wireless, ethernet, and a phone connection would all be great things to put on players - always. I see this in the future, perhaps not on all players, but on certain models for sure, and those will likely do very well.

Don't get me wrong -there are crappy players out there. There are manufacturers that should be ashamed of their product. But, there have been some very conciensious manufacturers as well, with some very good product... yet that doesn't mean there isn't a ton of room for improvement.

Has that affected sales? I think perhaps it has. As has price, as has availability, as has the format war, as has consumer recognition, as has many other factors. But, considerable increase in sales compared to last year, is what is truly occurring - despite the negatives that DO exist.

DRM? That's not going to be what will stop Blu-ray - DVD is easily the biggest reason BD could fail.

 

[patnshan]

My PS3 works perfectly with every disc I have tried. It works perfectly as a DVD player as well.

One reason sales are an issue is that people are fixated on needing a standalone when the perfect combined with cheapest Blu Ray player is staring them right in the face! I used to be one of those folks until I opened my eyes. Standalones are waaay too expensive for what you get.

I see the solution as more marketing for the PS3 as a Blu Ray player (in addition to everything else it offers) and/or lower priced complete SA players fast!

Pat