U

UnxpectedError

Enthusiast
All I wanted to know was what a good price for the 802 Diamonds was. :eek:

Just kidding, interested to hear the results….:D
Haha sorry man. My Break in comment, which was originally intended as a warning for you in case you repeat my experience with the 803's. It seems to have thrown the experts into a frenzy, but i'm glad since i'd like to see them proove me wrong or right.:D

Although they'd have to get a 800 series speaker to do that since i've never heard any difference between any of my other speakers after break in. But the real key in noticing it this time was the HTM2 center which i got at the same time used. I actually A/B that speaker with one of my 803's and could tell a significant difference when the 803 was new. Not so anymore.
 
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Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
The virgin speaker must remain in a factory-sealed carton, and the broken-in unit must be broken-in under the observation of a qualified audiophile referee, all certified by Price Waterhouse accountants. The accountants will also perform a Quality Assurance audit of the Cambridge factory to determine how much play time, if any, these speakers received prior to shipping.

Is there any data about how long to break-in the speakers? Is 50 hours long enough?

All your other audio gear must be certified as state-of-the-art or better.

Your test rig microphone must have recent documentation certifying it was calibrated using a NIST-traceable source.

Perform blinded listening comparisons of virgin vs. virgin (A-A), and broken-in vs. broken-in (B-B), as well as virgin vs. broken-in (A-B, the experimental question). The number of false positive answers provided by the test population will be the percent of listeners who report hearing differences between A-A or B-B. Don't expect that to be 0%.

The number of false negative answers can be estimated by determining how many listeners can and cannot hear a difference between speakers that do and do not have the tweeter wired out of phase with the woofer. How well they do with that known difference will be directly compared to how well they do in the virgin vs. broken-in comparison.

Test enough listeners, at least 100 (300 is better) to provide results with unequivocal statistical significance. N=6 ain't gonna cut it. Editors of the The Journal of Golden Ear Trivia will insist on statistical analysis with at least a 95% confidence level.

To avoid unnecessary effort, you can adopt an early stopping rule for futility. After the first 24 listeners, if fewer than 51% can identify an audible difference between the virgin and broken-in speakers, the test may be stopped early.

Is that enough? I could go on :rolleyes:.

That sounds about right. You're in charge of implementing and financing the experiment. Glad to have that taken out of my hands.
 
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PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
So a question for those that have the 802 and or similar speakers. This is how I like to listen to music when seriously sitting down for an hour or so with a few select songs. This is the MA7000 running the Focals. Now, do you guys think that I may need to go with a bigger amp? I'm pretty sure the 802s are a bit harder load than the Focals.

Ma7000_zpsd985e430.mp4 Video by andybernal | Photobucket
What are the dimensions of the room where the video was taken and what SPL were you getting when the MA7000 was outputting that kind of power, 25 to 250W, maybe averaging over 100W as shown by the VU meter?

I do not have any 802 but have listened to them several times when shopping for speakers. I have listened to the KEF Blades in a large room (by THX std.) power by a pair of Mc1.2kW and their VUs fluctuates between a few watts to over 100 to 200W occasionally so I am amazed when I see you need that much power for the Focal. Obviously the Blades are no 802s but they are rated 4 ohms with lower dips whereas the 802s are likely rated 8 ohms, also with low dips. I suspect they are comparable in that regard.


ADTG has the 802 diamonds and if I remember right he drives them with nothing more than 300W. It really depends on your room size, geometry, acoustics etc., your required spl and finally how much power your speakers can handle.

Regardless, if your 7000 is almost maxing out now, I would say you need a bigger amp, 601 at least but the Mc1.2kW would be about right for the 802 Diamond but not sure about the 802S. My guess is that what's good for the diamond would be good enough for the "S".

In the mean time I suggest you go easy with those Focal as I am not sure they can take that much power on a sustained basis.
 
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flyboylr45

flyboylr45

Senior Audioholic
Well, the room is 18x14x8. It is carpeted, has 2 soffit bass traps in the front, (4) 242 at reflection points on the side walls, (2) 244 in the front wall behind the speakers, and (2) monster bass traps behind the listener all from GIK acoustics. I'm getting over 100db at the listening position about 8 feet away (if memory serves me right). The Focals are rated at 300 watts RMS. The power guard lights for the MA7000 have never come on so the amp is not being overdriven.
 
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English210

Audioholic
What? Don't burst my bubble.

I thought my car would drive better after 200,000 miles compared to 20 miles. :eek: :D
"Better", or "More accurately"? :) - Do not loose hope, my car is far more accurate at 180K - it can find it's own way onto jack stands for repair now!
 
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PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Well, the room is 18x14x8. It is carpeted, has 2 soffit bass traps in the front, (4) 242 at reflection points on the side walls, (2) 244 in the front wall behind the speakers, and (2) monster bass traps behind the listener all from GIK acoustics. I'm getting over 100db at the listening position about 8 feet away (if memory serves me right). The Focals are rated at 300 watts RMS. The power guard lights for the MA7000 have never come on so the amp is not being overdriven.
So your room is not too big, but you like it loud, 25db louder than what I need. I know your amp is not overdriven judging from that video and you should be fine now that I know you are getting 100 db at around 100 W output. By the way the 300W for the 1028 is most likely not a continuous rating. I think most speakers don't provide a cont rating. I may email Focal and see if they will tell me what it is. Anyway I think you will be fine with the 802 in that room without a bigger amp .
 
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English210

Audioholic
If I was intelligent, I would have been a doctor and been able to be home every day with my family and my 802D. :D

You never know what to expect here. Let's also talk about my cable lifters and their break in time.;)
Exactly!! If the right rich Uncle Uncle dies, and I buy your 1028's, I'll need to know how to get the best outta them!! :)

Oh, and about that being a doctor and being home wih your family every night?? I know enough doctors that you probably made the right choice..;)
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
90dB/2.83v/m, Distance 8ft/2.4m, Peak SPL 100dBC.

If the 802D2 were 4 ohms from 30Hz-20kHz, it would require 116W into 4 ohms.

If it were 8 ohms from 30Hz-20kHz, it would require 58W into 8 ohms.

It doesn't seem to require a lot of power either way in this situation.
 
flyboylr45

flyboylr45

Senior Audioholic
Just measured the distance to the speakers and it's just a nudge over 9 feet. Yes, that's just the 2 speakers with NO subs. This system is only a 2 channel system. And I'm getting over 100db peak. I'd go measure it again now but gotta wait until the baby wakes up. :D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Just measured the distance to the speakers and it's just a nudge over 9 feet. Yes, that's just the 2 speakers with NO subs. This system is only a 2 channel system. And I'm getting over 100db peak. I'd go measure it again now but gotta wait until the baby wakes up. :D
Let's round UP to 3m then. 100dB peak from TWO speakers = 97dB from one speaker = 45W into 8 ohms or 90W into 4 ohms.

103dB peak from 2 speakers = 100dB from one speaker = 90W into 8 ohms or 180W into 4 ohms.

104dB peak from 2 speakers = 113W/8 ohms or 226W/4 ohms.

105dB peak = 143W/8 ohms or 286W/4 ohms.

106dB = 180W/8 or 360W/4 ohms.
 
flyboylr45

flyboylr45

Senior Audioholic
So you're saying I need a BIGGER amp? :D Just kidding.

Now if things change with the new speakers, like sitting further away, or having them closer to the walls, ect., at what point is the 250 watts/ch not enough? I know the 802s are 8ohm, but don't they have dips to 2ohms? At those levels would the Mac run out or just go into protection mode because it couldn't produce? I am assuming Im somewhere near the limit, right? If I am near the limit, how much more breathing room would a 450 watt/ch amplifier provide?

Hey I appreciate all the info, I love learning about this stuff. :)
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
So you're saying I need a BIGGER amp? :D Just kidding.

Now if things change with the new speakers, like sitting further away, or having them closer to the walls, ect., at what point is the 250 watts/ch not enough? I know the 802s are 8ohm, but don't they have dips to 2ohms? At those levels would the Mac run out or just go into protection mode because it couldn't produce? I am assuming Im somewhere near the limit, right? If I am near the limit, how much more breathing room would a 450 watt/ch amplifier provide?

Hey I appreciate all the info, I love learning about this stuff. :)
The 802 Diamond’s listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +2.82/–2.79 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz. The –3-dB point is at 31 Hz, and the –6-dB point is at 27 Hz. Impedance reaches a minimum of 3.67 ohms at 98 Hz and a phase angle of –54.11 degrees at 49 Hz. Theoretically.

But in reality for me (peak SPL 94dB from 12ft distance), a Denon 3312 alone can drive the 802D2 just fine in 2.0 mode.

With that high of a phase angle @ 49Hz (worst is +/- 60 degrees) & impedance of 3.67 ohms @ 98Hz, the 802D2 may be theoretically more difficult to drive than usual, especially at high volume.
 
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English210

Audioholic
So you're saying I need a BIGGER amp? :D Just kidding.

Now if things change with the new speakers, like sitting further away, or having them closer to the walls, ect., at what point is the 250 watts/ch not enough? I know the 802s are 8ohm, but don't they have dips to 2ohms? At those levels would the Mac run out or just go into protection mode because it couldn't produce? I am assuming Im somewhere near the limit, right? If I am near the limit, how much more breathing room would a 450 watt/ch amplifier provide?

Hey I appreciate all the info, I love learning about this stuff. :)
Don't forget, as your speakers' ohms drop the amp rating goes up. In an ideal/linear fashion it would be 250/500/1000 at 8/4/2 ohms. Although most amps don't double-down like that, the output does go up. As you know, the load is very dynamic depending on volume position and program material, but the 250 watt rating is not a static number. What's the rating of the amp at 4 and /or 2 ohms?

It shows a dynamic headroom rating of 2db, which doesn't help me much, but might help the people here who know what they're talking about - 2db would be 2/3rds of 250wrms on the face of it, but I'm sure it's not that simple ;)
 
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English210

Audioholic
By selling them and buying 802D2? :eek: :D

Oh, man, the grass is always greener, I tell you. Always greener.
Ba-dum-bum.....

I can't fit/afford 802D2. I could fit the 803D2....provided I get to work on the kitchen remodel she wants! The Focals are an easier fit, though, and I did like what I heard...
I'm sure I would HAVE to have the cable lifters to avoid total disappointment!! :eek:
 
flyboylr45

flyboylr45

Senior Audioholic
Macs don't increase as ohms drop (that's the way I understand it). It's 250 watts at 8, 4, or 2 ohms. Right now, I have them hooked up to the 4 ohm tap on the Ma7000.

Acudef, I have no idea what you wrote means. The only thing I gather is that the lowest the 802s will drop to is 3.67ohms.
 
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