Audioquest v. Monprice Comparison

j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Blue Jeans Cable has very high shipping costs to domestic USA addresses, your cable will cost you much more than other reasonable options. Probably more than the Audioquest cable at your local Best Buy.
If you need it tomorrow, yes. They're on the same side of the country as me so shipping is quick and cheap (USPS). They're a SMALL shop, so this is expected. Scales of economy. If you want companies like that to exist, that's how that happens.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Redco makes and sells excellent, low cost cable (eg: 3' HDMI~HDMI, $13) as Verdinut points out.

Blue Jeans Cable has very high shipping costs to domestic USA addresses, your cable will cost you much more than other reasonable options. Probably more than the Audioquest cable at your local Best Buy.

Markertek will sell you a 3' HDMI 1.4 cable for $8 including shipping. I don't understand the Monoprice Chinese-made love in a forum overwhelmingly dominated by people who insist any reasonable quality cable is all that is needed and that you should not spend more than necessary. Yet $8 is too much?

As for HDMI, or any digital interface, being a simple Go/No Go transmission, I must respectfully disagree, as would, I am sure, every manufacturer whose products are reviewed at Audioholics.
Every manufacturer whose product we review, including Blue jeans Cable, all mirror what we say. HDMI either works perfectly, or you get sparkles or snow, audio drop outs or no picture or audio at all. There is no in between or "less" or "better" fidelity between HDMI cables.
 
P

pewternhrata

Audioholic Chief
Every manufacturer whose product we review, including Blue jeans Cable, all mirror what we say. HDMI either works perfectly, or you get sparkles or snow, audio drop outs or no picture or audio at all. There is no in between or "less" or "better" fidelity between HDMI cables.
I do have a question and you are the guy to answer. Ill try my best to get this across so bear with me lol. Isnt any loss between an hdmi connection (or any digital connection) 'corrected' as part of the interface? So say a few 1's and 0's get lost or scrambled, the digital interface will correct it or make due? Yes, some data might be lost, but at a minimal that we couldn't tell the difference unless test equipment tells us?
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
I do have a question and you are the guy to answer. Ill try my best to get this across so bear with me lol. Isnt any loss between an hdmi connection (or any digital connection) 'corrected' as part of the interface? So say a few 1's and 0's get lost or scrambled, the digital interface will correct it or make due? Yes, some data might be lost, but at a minimal that we couldn't tell the difference unless test equipment tells us?
A great article here that answers those questions and more:
https://www.cnet.com/news/why-all-hdmi-cables-are-the-same/
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
Reliable HDMI connection is why I use Monoprice Ultraslims
You rated my post as dumb, but you didn't elaborate why. Then, what's wrong with Redco Audio products?

When we don't know much about something, it's very easy to make an opinion that is dumb!
 
B

Beave

Audioholic Chief
In a previous life (job, actually), I had to test HDMI outputs on some of our products, and that included testing cables because some of our products were to include a cable. Of course that meant looking at eye-diagrams on a high-speed digital scope with an HDMI test package, which would also provide estimates of Bit Error Rate. All the short-ish cables (under about 2M) that I tested did great. Some of the longer ones (say, 4-6M), had visible closing of the eye-diagram and associated increased BER, but they were still probably 'good enough' for most applications (ie, errors so infrequently that picture and/or sound dropouts would rarely happen).

Everything Gene has posted in this thread seems correct to me. But what do I know? When I was testing HDMI interfaces, it was back in the old days of 1080p, not these days of new-fangled HDR and high bit depth and 4k and all that stuff the kids are into. :)
 
Speedskater

Speedskater

Audioholic General
Okay folks, list your recommended cable brands.
For completed cables:
  • Blue Jeans Cable
  • other brands that use Belden, Canare or Mogami bulk cables
Note, that would be only the high-end bulk lines and there are some other good regional bulk cable manufactures. Names like Gepco and West Penn.
 
RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
A great article here that answers those questions and more:
https://www.cnet.com/news/why-all-hdmi-cables-are-the-same/
If moving to 4K UHD, I recommend getting a premium certified high-speed HDMI cable. My Monoprice slim 18Gbs cables were working for a while, then they had handshaking issues. Sometimes they worked, other times-not.

Monopirce sells certified cables for $20 for a 25-foot cable. If you want long cables, it gets expensive and ARC (Audio Return Channel) may have issues.

- Rich
 
Speedskater

Speedskater

Audioholic General
Now for HDMI cables, I would only chose completed cables that use
Belden Series-1 Bonded-Pair Cable and are HDMI 1.3a (CTS 1.3b1) certified.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Now for HDMI cables, I would only chose completed cables that use
Belden Series-1 Bonded-Pair Cable and are HDMI 1.3a (CTS 1.3b1) certified.
What is a 1.3a certification for HDMI normally since hdmi themselves don't use such cable designation? (not familiar with CTS)
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
Every manufacturer whose product we review, including Blue jeans Cable, all mirror what we say. HDMI either works perfectly, or you get sparkles or snow, audio drop outs or no picture or audio at all. There is no in between or "less" or "better" fidelity between HDMI cables.
"sparkles or snow" is a progressive failure ... if they happen rarely and only are illuminated for 1/60th/sec you won't see them, but they are there. As they progress to visible it's simply a matter of progressive failure to transmit the high frequency analog signal (which is what all digital transmissions via cable are). The point where they fail to no picture/no audio is an artifact of the transmission protocol ... when the errors get to a certain point the receiver stops listening and tries to restart the stream. It's related to the cable, but it's not the cable "going dark" ... it's still generating signal and transmitting same, just doing a Pxxs poor job of it. Which is a cable quality issue.

Now, you can take all of the above to mean HDMI cables are a Go/No Go type device. But that is a personal decision, a perfectly valid one (and one that trades off grief for money, as it's likely the replacement will be of a higher quality than the one you tossed in the trash for failing to do it's assigned duty, plus you have the expense of the now useless cable to add*) but it's not a scientific reality per the cable alone. Everything's fine unless you put it as fact that it is.

* One of the Guiding Principles I've followed my whole life, and one that has stood the test of time (many didn't) is "only the rich can afford to buy junk". When your bargain item fails, you have two choices ... replace it with the same bargain item and hope for a better result (at 2x the expense) or replace it with what you should have bought in the first place (so you only wasted 1x the cost of the first useless item). Both require more money than just buying the adequate item in the first place, sometimes more than adequate, if you plan on using it for 50 years, but that's it. You've covered an issue and won't have to address it again, thus saving money for now and forever in the future.
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
A great article here that answers those questions and more:
https://www.cnet.com/news/why-all-hdmi-cables-are-the-same/
That article is from 2012- a lot has changed since then and not all HDMI cables work. Redmere cables that were made before about the middle of last year worked fine, until 4K became a problem for that version. The new ones work better, but many active cables just won't pass the signal reliably over more than 15' and that's a big problem for those of us who install this stuff as a business. I installed a Denon AVR-X4300H last June and because the projector doesn't do 4K, I set the AVR so it shouldn't be a problem. When I left, it worked very well but a couple of months later, I received text messages and calls stating that the sound was there, but the picture wasn't. I had them try a few things, but it didn't work. I scheduled a return trip and when I went to my supplier, he told me that the older Redmere cables don't work, so I bought a couple of different ones that would reach- 30+ feet. I connected the new cable before feeding it through the conduit and it worked immediately, so I pulled everything out, added two Cat6 to the HDMI and two Cat5e, re-fed them and tested it.

The thing I didn't mention- that house is three hours away and there's nobody in the area who does custom.

Now that 4K is here and the TVs are cheap, a lot of people are seeing problems- some are caused be settings, some by cables that can't pass 18 GHz signal and you know what? 8K is right around the corner.

Up to 15', most cables will work but beyond that, it's a crap shoot. We shouldn't need to do the testing for those who mandated that HDMI be the only way to transmit HD video and there's no way to be absolutely sure a particular cable will work or even HDMI extender, for that matter- there are too many variables in the receivers, sources and other devices that may be between the two. Now, the industry is finally working on getting fiber ready for prime time- I heard about a new HDMI that can be field-terminated, is more flexible than previous versions and being a dual fiber, it should be ready for the future.

We'll see about that.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Every manufacturer whose product we review, including Blue jeans Cable, all mirror what we say. HDMI either works perfectly, or you get sparkles or snow, audio drop outs or no picture or audio at all. There is no in between or "less" or "better" fidelity between HDMI cables.
And yet, AQ has 6' HDMI cables that sell for $1250.

In my last post, I wrote about a house with a bad HDMI cable- I have been doing AV work for that family since late-'06 and when I started the original installation, he asked if I would be using HDMI. I told him I wouldn't, until they got rid of the bugs or I have no choice and here I am, with bugs AND no choice. I replaced the AVR at their local house (the old one didn't have enough HDMI inputs) and have had some problems there, too. The Plasma TV is 50" and the viewing distance doesn't require it, so upgrading to 4K really isn't justified.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
.

When your bargain item fails, you have two choices ... replace it with the same bargain item and hope for a better result (at 2x the expense)
That looks similar to:

Q- Why do you bang your head on the wall?

A- Because it feels so good when I stop.

Any chance of doing a thread about your MC step-up transformer?
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
That looks similar to:

Q- Why do you bang your head on the wall?

A- Because it feels so good when I stop.

Any chance of doing a thread about your MC step-up transformer?
I would be happy to, I'd have to PM Gene and see what he says about it, but with his OK not a problem.

There isn't a lot new to report as of right now, but there is some news beyond the photo I posted. It's still in a development stage, (finalizing the enclosure, for example) plus there is a website to finish and go live.

Timeline to a saleable product is still a few months in the future. But as long as it's OK I am more than willing to do updates between now and then.

Glad someone is interested.
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
I do have a question and you are the guy to answer. Ill try my best to get this across so bear with me lol. Isnt any loss between an hdmi connection (or any digital connection) 'corrected' as part of the interface? So say a few 1's and 0's get lost or scrambled, the digital interface will correct it or make due? Yes, some data might be lost, but at a minimal that we couldn't tell the difference unless test equipment tells us?
Not really the case with HDMI. It's a one-way protocol (there is some two-way communication with the right gear at both ends, but it's not possible to correct the AV transmission that way; it just sets things like resolution). So it really is a matter of either the cable does the job or the picture or audio starts to show signs of stress, or fails completely.

Longer cables have a harder time keeping the error rate within the requirements. There are workarounds to that but they mean added costs and perhaps data limits (so, maybe OK with 1080p but not 4K, for example). Those are mostly used by installers who plan the entire system / room.

1's and 0's are sent via analog discreet voltage levels. It's really important to remember that in all cases these are analog devices working with voltages that represent digital data. The CPU in the computer you are using to read this is an all-analog device. There are no real ones and zeros anywhere in a digital system; they are merely represented by analog signals.* And so on.

There is a bit of a incogruity between how digital theory is taught and how analog theory is taught. In many (most, probably) cases, the student of digital processing is never taught any analog theory ... they are taught that a one is a one and a zero is a zero, and let's move on. The better way to do it would be to teach some analog theory to go with it, but I've spoken to many a digital processing professional who could not cite Ohm's Law. That is a serious error.

So (and this is just illustrative; the actual voltages differ depending on the digital protocol) it's not a matter of 0V = a digital one and 5V = a digital zero, it's more like 2V is the one and 4V is the zero, with a "zero crossing point" of 3V.

If there is sufficient interference or some other issue, it's usually about that zero crossing point. At which voltage above 3V does the interface decide it's dealing with a digital zero? What if the voltage is slow or weak, and and that one never changes to a zero because it's not clearly well above the zero crossing point? As the resolution of your system goes up, the only way to force more digital ones and zeros through the cable is by increasing the frequency of the changes. That requires ever more capable high frequency analog devices and cable transmission capabilities.

That kind of thing is where the problems live.

I've tried to make it easy to understand, you don't need to be an engineer (electrical or digital) to grasp the concepts. The actual workings of all this is quite complex but the principles are simple.

It might also be helpful to note that these protocols are always making mistakes. Most digital systems have robust error correction routines. These generally take care of the error rate and do an excellent job of it.** So the place where errors can be generated is in that analog cable interface, because they cannot always be corrected ... they are assumed to be correct, rightly or wrongly.

* For the sake of correctness, digital ones and zeros do exist, sort of, but in storage media, like the pits and lands of an optical disk. You can use almost any media for storage of digital files ... Vinyl LP records can store digital data, for example, and were once used as such (briefly). Some people might be more familiar with analog tape (cassettes) used in early home computers. Same thing. Note that they are all analog as well, but the data can be very discretely represented, which is a kind of one and zero world.

Once that storage media needs to be used to actually get that data off the disk and to a system, it's all analog electrical signals (versus analog storage in a non-electronic form) from that point.

** For example, a Redbook compliant CD has the music data written to multiple areas of the disk multiple times. When an error is discovered (can't read a scratch in the disk, for example) the CD player can read the data somewhere else and get the correct data out to the rest of the system. This takes time, but there is enough time to do it if the other area isn't damaged as well.

Now, that's at 44.1KHz. What if your data is now 88.2KHz (a Hi-Rez audio file). Now the time to make that correction is halved. That is an example where higher resolutions (like 4K) can introduce problems, or to put another way, where a cable that was fine with 1080p can fail with 4K.
 
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