A Weekend with the Linkwitz Orion

[TLS Guy]

Here is the FR of the BP7000 from Home Theater:

The BP7000SC’s listening-window response (a five-point average of
axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures
+2.50/–3.64 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz. The –3dB point is at
22 Hz, and the –6dB point is at 21 Hz. Impedance reaches a minimum of
2.92 ohms at 424 Hz and a phase angle of –37.82 degrees at 154 Hz.
Sensitivity averages 91 dB from 500 Hz to 2 kHz.

View attachment 9189

The BP7000 is the very top graph.

That is not a good mid band frequency response. It has lumps and bumps just where you don't want them. From 400 Hz to 10k Hz you need to be +/- 2db at the most for a good speaker.

 

[GranteedEV]

That is not a good mid band frequency response. It has lumps and bumps just where you don't want them. From 400 Hz to 10k Hz you need to be +/- 2db at the most for a good speaker.

At what resolution does it have to be +/- 2db? According to gene's measurements mine have a high Q peak from about 1.2khz to 1.3khz:

(never mind the room node in the measurement at 200hz):

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/floorstanding/emptek-e55ti/EMPFreq.JPG/image_view_fullscreen

Would it be worthwhile for me to EQ that peak down?

 

[TLS Guy]

At what resolution does it have to be +/- 2db? According to gene's measurements mine have a high Q peak from about 1.2khz to 1.3khz:

(never mind the room node in the measurement at 200hz):

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/floorstanding/emptek-e55ti/EMPFreq.JPG/image_view_fullscreen

Would it be worthwhile for me to EQ that peak down?

It looks as if the woofer cone, is breaking up as early as 650 Hz, with a bigger break up at 1300 Hz an octave higher. You can try notching the peak, but there is still stored energy.

I have heard EMP speakers and did not like them.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...
After reading the Audio Critic's review and follow-ups of the Orions, I also wondered about this. I think Peter Aczel said that the Orions can image a life-like 3D soundstage like no other monopole speakers. But I don't think Peter Aczel has ever listened to the Salon 2 either.
...

The last sentence is the key unknown factor here. If he hasn't maybe his comment is incomplete. Any way for sending him an email and ask?

 

[KEW]

Don't worry Grant, You're not a true Audioholic until TLS Guy has told you how bad your speakers suck!
I achieved my AH status via my Paradigms, but am hoping to go for a two fer right here and now!

I have heard EMP speakers and did not like them.

What about these?

Go ahead! I can take it! Get it over with, doc!
(wincing and assuming the position)

 

[GranteedEV]

It just wouldnt be Dr Mark if there weren't

1) Disdain for passive 3-ways, especially if they have iron core chokes...even more modern low distortion low saturation stuff
2) Disdain for American\Canadian speakers, especially with metal drivers
3) A quick assumption that every commercial speaker lacks adequate BSC

;P

I do find it odd that there is such a prominent breakup mode there for the so called 'polymatrix' cones though... at 600hz the lowpassed woofers should be around 30db down and at 1300hz around 40db down... for their breakups to be showing up on the FR graph, I am having a tough time believing. Honestly i attributed the high q peak(s) to room or measurement artifacts as it isnt a true anechoic chamber graph.

either way i like to learn so that my next pair of speakers really kicks ***.

 

[TLS Guy]

Don't worry Grant, You're not a true Audioholic until TLS Guy has told you how bad your speakers suck!
I achieved my AH status via my Paradigms, but am hoping to go for a two fer right here and now!



What about these?

Go ahead! I can take it! Get it over with, doc!
(wincing and assuming the position)

That looks pretty good. The slight rise between 1 and 2 K will give it a sightly forward aspect.

 

[TLS Guy]

It just wouldnt be Dr Mark if there weren't

1) Disdain for passive 3-ways, especially if they have iron core chokes...even more modern low distortion low saturation stuff
2) Disdain for American\Canadian speakers, especially with metal drivers
3) A quick assumption that every commercial speaker lacks adequate BSC

;P

I do find it odd that there is such a prominent breakup mode there for the so called 'polymatrix' cones though... at 600hz the lowpassed woofers should be around 30db down and at 1300hz around 40db down... for their breakups to be showing up on the FR graph, I am having a tough time believing. Honestly i attributed the high q peak(s) to room or measurement artifacts as it isnt a true anechoic chamber graph.

either way i like to learn so that my next pair of speakers really kicks ***.

I'm not against metal drivers. I use them. Most are really tricky though as you have sudden vigorous break up modes to deal with. And they really must be dealt with, or there are big problems.

As far as three ways, the percentage of good ones is less than the percentage of decent 2 and 2.5 ways. Yes, it is a bad plan to build passive three ways with crossovers below 350 Hz. The passive components have far too much resistance and artifact. You can't put and L-pad is a woofer circuit for the same reason.

And yes, I think there are now two generations of speaker designers from the UK, who have been with the BBC and or heavily influenced by them, and it has given them a distinct edge in speaker development. I think the odds of running into a decent speaker from the UK are higher then elsewhere.

Market is also a factor, as the classical market is much higher in the UK than elsewhere by a huge margin. The reason for that is the large number of concerts available all over the UK and especially London, the latter usually a minimum of five good offerings a day. In the long summer Prom and festival season, many more. I think that trains peoples ears. So speaker errors are much more likely to trip a manufacturer there then elsewhere.

 

[Docks]

Here's my babies

The S8’s listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +0.97/–1.90 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz. The –3-dB point is at 51 Hz, and the –6-dB point is at 42 Hz. Impedance reaches a minimum of 4.21 ohms at 98 Hz and a phase angle of –83.18 degrees at 57 Hz.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/paradigm-reference-signature-s8-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures

BTW is there an orion freq response graph? I'd like to see it, Not a big fan of the bi-polar idea though.

 

[Calvin Hobbes]

It looks as if the woofer cone, is breaking up as early as 650 Hz, with a bigger break up at 1300 Hz an octave higher. You can try notching the peak, but there is still stored energy.

I have heard EMP speakers and did not like them.

I am slowly coming to the conclusion that measurements provided by Audioholics(extend that to all who provide quasi frequency charts) must be taken with a large grain of salt. There are major inconsistencies from one review to another. Different reviewers measuring, different techniques, different rooms, smoothing, 1/2 meter, one meter...

Anechoic measurements are made at two meters and then plotted at one meter.

Drawing any conclusions from a non-anechoic measurements is at best a crapshoot and it is easy to choose those measurements that best fit ones bias and/or agenda.

Enjoy the music!

 

[TLS Guy]

I am slowly coming to the conclusion that measurements provided by Audioholics(extend that to all who provide quasi frequency charts) must be taken with a large grain of salt. There are major inconsistencies from one review to another. Different reviewers measuring, different techniques, different rooms, smoothing, 1/2 meter, one meter...

Anechoic measurements are made at two meters and then plotted at one meter.

Drawing any conclusions from a non-anechoic measurements is at best a crapshoot and it is easy to choose those measurements that best fit ones bias and/or agenda.

Enjoy the music!

True, but the peaks are an octave apart, which does suggest a problem.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Here is the Revel Salon 2:

The Salon2’s listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +0.99/–2.25 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/revel-ultima2-salon2-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures

So do we conclude that the Paradigm speakers are better speakers than the Salon 2?

Do we even say that since the Salon2 has a > 2.0 dB tolerance in this region, that they are not really "great" speakers to begin with?

 

[TLS Guy]

Here is the Revel Salon 2:

The Salon2’s listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +0.99/–2.25 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/revel-ultima2-salon2-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures

So do we conclude that the Paradigm speakers are better speakers than the Salon 2?

Do we even say that since the Salon2 has a > 2.0 dB tolerance in this region, that they are not really "great" speakers to begin with?

A 2db tolerance in that band is really good performance.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

BTW is there an orion freq response graph? I'd like to see it, Not a big fan of the bi-polar idea though.

Here is the Orion frequency response from The Audio Critic:

View attachment 9190

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The NHT Absolute Zero:

The Absolute Zero’s listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +0.94/–0.82 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/nht-absolute-zero-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures

This $175 speaker looks even better than the Salon2, B&W, Paradigm, and Orion.

 

[KEW]

The NHT Absolute Zero:

The Absolute Zero’s listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +0.94/–0.82 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/nht-absolute-zero-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures

This $175 speaker looks even better than the Salon2, B&W, Paradigm, and Orion.

Maybe it is just me, but I just don't have much feel for how much the smoothing algorithms which Home Theater applies to their frequency response curves waters down the real data.
I wish they would show a "raw data" curve like AH does.

 

[KEW]

I am slowly coming to the conclusion that measurements provided by Audioholics(extend that to all who provide quasi frequency charts) must be taken with a large grain of salt. There are major inconsistencies from one review to another. Different reviewers measuring, different techniques, different rooms, smoothing, 1/2 meter, one meter...

Anechoic measurements are made at two meters and then plotted at one meter.

Drawing any conclusions from a non-anechoic measurements is at best a crapshoot and it is easy to choose those measurements that best fit ones bias and/or agenda.

Enjoy the music!

You certainly can't beat the measurements from NRCC as provided by SoundStage magazine! I don't think AH can afford that.

Does anyone know why SoundStage has quit using NRCC?
(I think they have - the last few reviews from 2010 I have seen had no measurements!)

 

[Calvin Hobbes]

You certainly can't beat the measurements from NRCC as provided by SoundStage magazine! I don't think AH can afford that.

Does anyone know why SoundStage has quit using NRCC?
(I think they have - the last few reviews from 2010 I have seen had no measurements!)

Sounstage is still using the NRCC. Paradigm SE 1 were listed as Jan. 1 2011. The NRCC is about as objective and consistant with their measurements as we have to reference from.

There are noticeable differences between the NRCC measurements and Home Theatre Magazines' quasi measurement.

 

[Docks]

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/paradigm_signature_s8/
S8 (only V1)

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/dynaudio_confidence_c4/
Dynaudio C4

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/revel_ultima_studio/
Revel Ultima Studio

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/jmlab_miniutopia/
JM Labs Mini Utopia

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So which graph do you guys look at, the 5-point average since it gives an "overall" picture of the on-axis and +/- 15 degrees off-axis?