A Weekend with the Linkwitz Orion

[GO-NAD!]

I think a more appropriate name for me would be AudioNut or AudioCraze.

I've heard great things about the Gedlee speakers.

Yeah, I can see putting the Gedlee speakers behind a screen. They don't even have grills, do they?

Speaking of grills, I listened to the Orion w/ & w/o grills, and I can't say with confidence that I could tell the difference. The same goes with every single speaker I've listened to.

You're not alone buddy! I could never hear a difference either.

 

[GranteedEV]

I think a more appropriate name for me would be AudioNut or AudioCraze.

I've heard great things about the Gedlee speakers.

Yeah, I can see putting the Gedlee speakers behind a screen. They don't even have grills, do they?

Speaking of grills, I listened to the Orion w/ & w/o grills, and I can't say with confidence that I could tell the difference. The same goes with every single speaker I've listened to.

I cant even tell the difference between toe in and no toe in, at least with my speakers at home!

anyways the geddes speakers do look a bit decent with custom finishes. they are still big boxes but for example the candy apple red on their site looks kind of cool!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Another observation from memory

Last night I was listening to my Def Tech BP7000. When my 9 yr old daughter walked into the room, she immediately covered her ears and said, "Daddy that is way too loud!" I immediately stop the music.

I said, "So how come you didn't say that when you heard those speakers (Linkwitz Orion) over the weekend in Dallas?"

She said, "They didn't sound loud".

I had to think about that.

I am certain that we turned the volume up and listened to the Linkwitz Orions at loud volume - probably 85dB (no SPL meter). The HK3600 volume knob was set to -10dB. The Orions were powered by the AT6012 amp. According to The Audio Critic, the AT6012 measured 80 watts into 8ohms. Each Orion speaker gets FOUR channels of amps.

I recall that when I had my HK247 (w/ BP7000 & w/o any ext amps), I was listening to around -20dB.

When I play my BP7000 (AVP-A1 + AT3005), I only listen to about 85dB (using digital SPL meter), with my Denon set to about -25dB on the volume knob.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I cant even tell the difference between toe in and no toe in, at least with my speakers at home!

Yeah, I'm not sure if I can tell a difference either with the toe-in, but I do it anyway since everyone does it.

 

[adk highlander]

So did you order them yet? I see you've pulled your signature picture. Are you changing it to show the color you ordered?

 

[swspiers]

Last night I was listening to my Def Tech BP7000. When my 9 yr old daughter walked into the room, she immediately covered her ears and said, "Daddy that is way too loud!" I immediately stop the music.

I said, "So how come you didn't say that when you heard those speakers (Linkwitz Orion) over the weekend in Dallas?"

She said, "They didn't sound loud".

I had to think about that.

I am certain that we turned the volume up and listened to the Linkwitz Orions at loud volume - probably 85dB (no SPL meter). The HK3600 volume knob was set to -10dB. The Orions were powered by the AT6012 amp. According to The Audio Critic, the AT6012 measured 80 watts into 8ohms. Each Orion speaker gets FOUR channels of amps.

I recall that when I had my HK247 (w/ BP7000 & w/o any ext amps), I was listening to around -20dB.

When I play my BP7000 (AVP-A1 + AT3005), I only listen to about 85dB (using digital SPL meter), with my Denon set to about -25dB on the volume knob.

I'll probably get flamed for this, but the difference in perceived volume could be distortion/coloration from the Deftechs and/or the amplifier. Lots of variables at play, including high frequencies you can't hear but your daughter can.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So did you order them yet? I see you've pulled your signature picture. Are you changing it to show the color you ordered?

Yes, I have ordered them. Patience is not one of my virtues.

Yeah, I'm going to wait to see what the final color stain looks like before I post my signature picture. I hope it looks exactly like that, but probably not.

Actually, I just wanted to see if anyone misses my signature picture.

 

[KEW]

I'll probably get flamed for this, but the difference in perceived volume could be distortion/coloration from the Deftechs and/or the amplifier. Lots of variables at play, including high frequencies you can't hear but your daughter can.

I think that is entirely reasonable.

I've always believed listening fatigue was as much or more a product of distortion in the high frequencies than bright high end. Of course either would do it, but I just don't think tweaking up the HF 2-3db on an EQ with a very clean, high quality system would be too quickly fatiguing to most people.
I think many speakers have more HF distortion than people realize. I didn't detect this until I had a setup to instantly switch between speakers. We just don't hear things very clearly up there, but that doesn't mean it's not perceived.

It would be interesting to measure how "loud" your daughter considered too loud for different speaker systems.

 

[KEW]

I cant even tell the difference between toe in and no toe in, at least with my speakers at home!

Does anyone know what this characteristic is called?
In his review, Tom Andry spoke of how amazed he was at how the Aperion Verus Grand Towers had great imaging and soundstage regardless of toe.
I used to think dispersion or off-axis response captured it; however, my Salk SongTowers with Ribbon Tweeters are the most sensitive speakers I have to toe-in, but they have decent off-axis response charts. Maybe the difference would show if the charts showed 1-5 degrees off-axis?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

A lot of people (Revel, Linkwitz, The Audio Critic, etc.) recommend a toe-in on speakers.

Yet, a lot of these superb speakers (Salon2, Orion, etc.) have great off-axis responses.

 

[TLS Guy]

Last night I was listening to my Def Tech BP7000. When my 9 yr old daughter walked into the room, she immediately covered her ears and said, "Daddy that is way too loud!" I immediately stop the music.

I said, "So how come you didn't say that when you heard those speakers (Linkwitz Orion) over the weekend in Dallas?"

She said, "They didn't sound loud".

I had to think about that.

I am certain that we turned the volume up and listened to the Linkwitz Orions at loud volume - probably 85dB (no SPL meter). The HK3600 volume knob was set to -10dB. The Orions were powered by the AT6012 amp. According to The Audio Critic, the AT6012 measured 80 watts into 8ohms. Each Orion speaker gets FOUR channels of amps.

I recall that when I had my HK247 (w/ BP7000 & w/o any ext amps), I was listening to around -20dB.

When I play my BP7000 (AVP-A1 + AT3005), I only listen to about 85dB (using digital SPL meter), with my Denon set to about -25dB on the volume knob.

Good speakers don't sound as loud as poor ones at the same db level. I noticed that years ago. By the way women are much more perceptive than men as a rule in noticing frequency response aberrations and other problems.

When Jake was here he got out my spl meter. He did not think it was very loud and a hard time believing the spl levels. So that tells me that the Orions are likely a big step up from the DefTechs.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Good speakers don't sound as loud as poor ones at the same db level. I noticed that years ago. By the way women are much more perceptive than men as a rule in noticing frequency response aberrations and other problems.

...So that tells me that the Orions are likely a big step up from the DefTechs.

Well that makes me feel good about ordering the Orion, but kind of sad about my Def Techs which I like a lot.

I notice my wife and 2 daughters always complain that my BP7000SC sound too loud. Yet all three of them were at the Orion audition, and NONE of them even complained about the loudness once.

I guess the term to use on the Def Techs is that they are more "forward" or more "in-your-face"? I just always consider them "lively" and "energetic" and "youthful".

I'm sure the Orion are more accurate speakers, but I still think the BP7000SC are awesome speakers; I can't help liking the way they sound.

I thought the RBH T3/P were even more "in-your-face" than the BP7000, but I didn't mind the RBH; they sounded very lively.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

When Jake was here he got out my spl meter. He did not think it was very loud and a hard time believing the spl levels.

Wait.

So it's possible that I could be listening to dangerous volume (>90dB) on the Orion and NOT notice it???

Yikes. I better get the SPL meter out when I get the Orion!

 

[GranteedEV]

Well that makes me feel good about ordering the Orion, but kind of sad about my Def Techs which I like a lot.

I notice my wife and 2 daughters always complain that my BP7000SC sound too loud. Yet all three of them were at the Orion audition, and NONE of them even complained about the loudness once.

I guess the term to use on the Def Techs is that they are more "forward" or more "in-your-face"? I just always consider them "lively" and "energetic" and "youthful".

I'm sure the Orion are more accurate speakers, but I still think the BP7000SC are awesome speakers; I can't help liking the way they sound.

I thought the RBH T3/P were even more "in-your-face" than the BP7000, but I didn't mind the RBH; they sounded very lively.

i think the rbhs are a 'treated room' speaker.

 

[TLS Guy]

Well that makes me feel good about ordering the Orion, but kind of sad about my Def Techs which I like a lot.

I notice my wife and 2 daughters always complain that my BP7000SC sound too loud. Yet all three of them were at the Orion audition, and NONE of them even complained about the loudness once.

I guess the term to use on the Def Techs is that they are more "forward" or more "in-your-face"? I just always consider them "lively" and "energetic" and "youthful".

I'm sure the Orion are more accurate speakers, but I still think the BP7000SC are awesome speakers; I can't help liking the way they sound.

I thought the RBH T3/P were even more "in-your-face" than the BP7000, but I didn't mind the RBH; they sounded very lively.

A forward in your face speaker is a bad one, no exceptions. I think have have got used to these types of speakers. A lot of people especially women really dislike those type of speakers.

I find it interesting to find that the Orions have apparently given you religion. I hope I get to hear them some time.

Properly balanced and voiced speakers always give a sound stage BEHIND the plane of the speakers.

 

[KEW]

Wait.

So it's possible that I could be listening to dangerous volume (>90dB) on the Orion and NOT notice it???

Yikes. I better get the SPL meter out when I get the Orion!

An SPL meter is not a bad idea on any count - fun to play with.

However, I really wonder what SPL is actually too loud when you are talking music.
In industry, 85dB has become a general standard for action where the exposure is continuous for 8 hours.
But impulse sounds are a totally different story.
...this is getting too far OT.
I'll start a new post under general AV topics.

Edit: I'd bet OSHA could shut down every HS Band program if the standard levels applied! For that matter, someone practicing trumpet in a house should be deaf! Live instruments are often played pretty loud.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

An SPL meter is not a bad idea on any count - fun to play with.

However, I really wonder what SPL is actually too loud when you are talking music.
In industry, 85dB has become a general standard for action where the exposure is continuous for 8 hours.
But impulse sounds are a totally different story.
...this is getting too far OT.
I'll start a new post under general AV topics.

Edit: I'd bet OSHA could shut down every HS Band program if the standard levels applied! For that matter, someone practicing trumpet in a house should be deaf! Live instruments are often played pretty loud.

I agree. When I say that I listen to 85dB movies and music, I mean that the MAXIMUM level is 85dB, but the usual is around 80dB or under.

Music is dynamic too, and the entire song is never at one volume. If I think certain songs peak higher than 85dB, I will pull out the SPL and check.

 

[highfigh]

Well that makes me feel good about ordering the Orion, but kind of sad about my Def Techs which I like a lot.

I notice my wife and 2 daughters always complain that my BP7000SC sound too loud. Yet all three of them were at the Orion audition, and NONE of them even complained about the loudness once.

I guess the term to use on the Def Techs is that they are more "forward" or more "in-your-face"? I just always consider them "lively" and "energetic" and "youthful".

I'm sure the Orion are more accurate speakers, but I still think the BP7000SC are awesome speakers; I can't help liking the way they sound.

I thought the RBH T3/P were even more "in-your-face" than the BP7000, but I didn't mind the RBH; they sounded very lively.

I would bet that if you saw the frequency response of yours vs the Orion, it would be very different. Also, what Mark posted regarding women's hearing vs men's is true- they hear mids and upper mids better than we do and if you look into which frequencies cause a "forward" or "youthful" sound, it's the mids and upper mids. Check into psycho-acoustics, too. Several phenomena can be induced just by adding a little here or there- add a bit at 4KHz and the image seems wider, while adding at 8KHz makes the image seem taller. A pure 8KHz tone sounds like it's directly overhead to many people, regardless of which ear hears it. If you have RTA software like Room EQ Wizard, you can get a good idea of the differences between the speakers, even if you don't have a great mic, since most of what makes one speaker "sound" louder is below the 10KHz-20KHz octave. Generally, adding a subwoofer makes a system sound louder but as Mark has mentioned, some speakers shout and that's a good analogy. Some of this can be due to the acoustics, too. RT60 being too high adds a lot of noise when the SPL is high and it's easy enough to test for this by hanging a heavy blanket behind the speakers if no drapes are currently there. Small-ish rooms are very susceptible to this and while I always wanted to do some kind of treatment here, I never seemed to get around to it until I had some panels left over from demonstrating the effects for a client. I put them up (actually, I stood them up where needed) and the difference in sound quality has been huge. The bass is much smoother, it's not as harsh and everything is more balanced, regardless of which speakers i have used.

 

[highfigh]

An SPL meter is not a bad idea on any count - fun to play with.

However, I really wonder what SPL is actually too loud when you are talking music.
In industry, 85dB has become a general standard for action where the exposure is continuous for 8 hours.
But impulse sounds are a totally different story.
...this is getting too far OT.
I'll start a new post under general AV topics.

Edit: I'd bet OSHA could shut down every HS Band program if the standard levels applied! For that matter, someone practicing trumpet in a house should be deaf! Live instruments are often played pretty loud.

IIRC, MarkW posted an OSHA SPL chart and in the text of that post, I think it mentioned that a violinist is more likely to have hearing loss than those who play some other instruments, even though the violin may not be as loud. The violin is much closer to the player, though, and that has a big effect. For whatever reason, the trombones were placed behind the flutes when I was in grade school band.

Ask This Old House had someone from OSHA on and he was talking about the effects of noise on construction sites. A pneumatic nailer is loud enough to do permanent damage and he showed the peak SPL from that, a circular saw, compressor and a regular hammer. The hammer was loudest, at about 130dB when it hit the board on the final strike. I know an architect who has profound hearing loss because he didn't wear any protection when he worked in construction and he now wears two hearing aids, but they don't always catch the beginning of the sound. Anything with a hard transient, like the letters C, B, K, P and T don't always come through correctly.

The wife of a customer works out a lot and wears her little ear buds when she has her iPod on. Her hearing is toast. The response of those little, crappy buds peaks in the mid-range and there's almost nothing at the extremes. Coincidence?

Here' an interesting link-
http://gilmore2.chem.northwestern.edu/articles/hearing_art.htm

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I would bet that if you saw the frequency response of yours vs the Orion, it would be very different.

Here is the FR of the BP7000 from Home Theater:

The BP7000SC’s listening-window response (a five-point average of
axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures
+2.50/–3.64 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz. The –3dB point is at
22 Hz, and the –6dB point is at 21 Hz. Impedance reaches a minimum of
2.92 ohms at 424 Hz and a phase angle of –37.82 degrees at 154 Hz.
Sensitivity averages 91 dB from 500 Hz to 2 kHz.

View attachment 9189

The BP7000 is the very top graph.