2010 Audioholics $1k Floorstanding Loudspeaker Faceoff

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GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
I've got no vendetta against Epik.
Could have fooled me; the other day when BMXTrix suggested an epic sub in an everyday thread, you didn't make a five paragraph post about how only people used to HTIBs like "untight" epic subs with "high distortion", when it was totally uncalled for and not even necessarily accurate information - considering you put a flat-to-below-20hz vented subwoofer in the following room:

Yourself said:
12’ wide x 14’ long x 7.5’ high. It is enclosed, carpeted and treated with bass traps and absorption panels from GiK Acoustics. The Sentinel was placed atop an Auralex GRAMMA Isolation Riser and positioned close to the front, left corner.
I don't have a problem with you but I've got a problem with your problem with Epik because your experience was unverified by any measurements or alternative placements/rooms, yet you're still grand in the effort you make to downplay them as a company (seriously, what relevence did they even have to this thread :confused: ). I wouldn't have bothered responding if this weren't the second time in the same week that you make an unwarranted anti-epik post; the irony being your stance on axiom.
 
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FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
By the by, for Granteed, since you seem to be basing your opinion of me and what you perceive to be my opinions about Epik on the infamous Sentinel review that came and went and possibly exists in the Way Back Machine somewhere, but no where else...

there's... a TON of information that went on behind the scenes that you're not privy to and isn't something I'm ever going to discuss because it isn't just me - it's a whole lot of people and I've zero right to talk about anyone else's involvement, so I'll remain silent on the issue. But suffice it to say, you honestly don't have anywhere near all of the info as to everything that happened with that situation, so I can understand where you're coming from, 'cause I basically know what info is public and how anyone seeing that info might react to it and what a person might think. But, like a lot of things, there's a whole lot more to it that is not public, and never will be, as far as I'm concerned. So, respectfully, you're speaking a bit out of turn based on, like, 5% of what all went on. I mean, Gene doesn't even have the full picture 'cause a whole lot of mistakes were made and there's a whole string of communications that even Gene never got to see, so yeah, just letting you know that there was a great deal more to the story...

I get it. I get where you're coming from because of the portion of info that was made public. It makes sense to me, so I'm not angry or upset or anything. But I know you to be a person who likes to base his opinions on facts, not conjecture. So I'm sorry to say that I'm not going to fill you in - in all honesty, I can't because I've erased pretty much all of the communcations pertaining to the whole ordeal. It's all water under the bridge so far as I'm concerned. Gene speaks the truth when he says that he doesn't hold grudges! Total respect towards Gene from me.

But as for my feelings towards Epik, how I evaluate and audition subs and speakers now, what my preferences are, etc. - I know you were heated when you wrote that last post here, so I'm assuming you were using hyperbole. I mean, everyone here knows how much I like the PB13-Ultra. I had no idea that it rolled off steep at 25Hz, but apparently, since you say those are the only subs I like, I guess it must, right? :p

Any case, old info is old...and very much incomplete.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Just for clarity's sake - what I wrote about Epik here in this thread, I didn't mean it as "anti-Epik". I was trying to draw a comparison between Epik and Axiom. Both companies produce inexpensive products that get a lot of praise, but aren't perfect. Both use less expensive parts in order to hit their target price points. Both pretty much take the attitude that what they make can't really be improved upon at ANY price point.

I was trying to draw that parallel, because I think it's apt, but point out how one company, Epik, gets a "pass", while Axiom gets raked over the coals!

I mean, obviously, you didn't read it that way, so I probably didn't write it well enough. I'm verbose. I type fast. I just type what I'm thinking and don't edit 'cause that would take up more time for typing! :p I can write ten paragraphs on drywall in a heartbeat! So yeah, if I'm praising something, it ends up being a book about how much I love...whatever. And if I'm criticising something, it's like a thesus :p

But yeah, my mention of them here was just to try and draw the parallel. I wasn't saying "How long will Epik get a "pass" - they deserve to be taken down!!! Arrrgh!" I was trying to say, "oh great, how long until the same forum trolls who hate on Axiom start hating on Epik - another GOOD audio company making GOOD products that just happen to use less expensive parts to hit a desireable, low price point?"

So yeah, it was actually meant as a type of...praise? Well that's not quite right. I'm not exactly praising Axiom either. I'm just saying that Axiom is getting really awful hate for a business decision - one that Epik is making also. I don't think that EITHER of them makes the absolute best speakers and subwoofers that cannot possibly be improved upon, regardless of price. Is that unfair? I think they both go for a low price point and try to pack very good performance in for that price point using less expensive components to make it happen. Is that inaccurate?

Edit: Yeah...here...when I wrote, "So when are they going to come under fire for "cutting corners"?" - yeah, I can totally see how you would have misread what I was trying to say. I wasn't saying Epik SHOULD come under fire. I was rolling my eyes at the forum trolls and wondering, "how long until they attack Epik too?"

Does that make sense now? I hope so. I was trying to insult the haters, not Epik!
 
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GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
By the by, for Granteed, since you seem to be basing your opinion of me and what you perceive to be my opinions about Epik on the infamous Sentinel review that came and went and possibly exists in the Way Back Machine somewhere, but no where else...
I'm not interested in talking about the politics behind that or why it was removed or what-have-you. But there's some serious red flags as to the test conditions, just from reading it. And then you go into any epik thread and essentially bash them, without outright saying it.

But as for my feelings towards Epik, how I evaluate and audition subs and speakers now, what my preferences are, etc. - I know you were heated when you wrote that last post here, so I'm assuming you were using hyperbole. I mean, everyone here knows how much I like the PB13-Ultra. I had no idea that it rolled off steep at 25Hz, but apparently, since you say those are the only subs I like, I guess it must, right? :p
So you've set the PB13U tuned to its flattest mode down to 20hz and below, in the corner of a 12’ wide x 14’ long x 7.5’ room and gotten great results? Interesting.

All I see is you claiming that they as a company sacrifice sound quality for extension. If the point was just to talk about Epik's use of less expensive parts, you wouldn't have made added the comment that

They just have some overhang and distortion to go along with it.
Implying amp quality affects subjective "overhang" considering you can't substantiate that with a single measurement, or even a subjective listening impression in a room where such a speaker wouldn't be imbalanced. You don't even consider the possibility that your experiences might be due to the test conditions rather than definitive, yet you're quick to throw them out.

It's akin (and i'm not exaggerating when it comes to bass in small rooms like that) to me listening to omni speakers in an anechoic chamber and claiming they've got no soundstage. It's annoying not because it's your experience (which we ALL have) but because you treat your experience as fact without stating the caveats which to at least some of us are pretty damning and bring up the brand when uncalled for.
 
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C

Calvin Hobbes

Audioholic Intern
I'm not interested in talking about the politics behind that or why it was removed or what-have-you. But there's some serious red flags as to the test conditions, just from reading it. And then you go into any epik thread and essentially bash them, without outright saying it.



So you've set the PB13U tuned to its flattest mode down to 20hz and below, in the corner of a 12’ wide x 14’ long x 7.5’ room and gotten great results? Interesting.

All I see is you claiming that they as a company sacrifice sound quality for extension. If the point was just to talk about Epik's use of less expensive parts, you wouldn't have made added the comment that



Implying amp quality affects subjective "overhang" considering you can't substantiate that with a single measurement, or even a subjective listening impression in a room where such a speaker wouldn't be imbalanced. You don't even consider the possibility that your experiences might be due to the test conditions rather than definitive, yet you're quick to throw them out.

It's akin (and i'm not exaggerating when it comes to bass in small rooms like that) to me listening to omni speakers in an anechoic chamber and claiming they've got no soundstage. It's annoying not because it's your experience (which we ALL have) but because you treat your experience as fact without stating the caveats which to at least some of us are pretty damning and bring up the brand when uncalled for.
And Nurse Ratched ...
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
An Axiomatic Anecdote

At at the Oregon GTG I got acquainted with Salk Speakers. That was the day I realized my ear had been schooled by the Salk Speakers and my beloved Axiom M60's sound would no longer cut it. The price difference aside, the ST sounded unbelievably better. They made the Axioms feel like a bad choice. I got home resolved to switch the M60's to Song Tower RT's asap.

As I drew closer to home, I realized that my comparison was unfair since the Axioms in my listening setup were not being "optimally" sounded. So, I got home from the GTG and spent hours moving my home around the speakers (quite literally), so
before,


and after,
and subsequent days using tweaking and evaluating the the results (to best match my memory of the ST). I was able to vastly improve the sound. In fact, I had new apprecession how good the M60's really were and ended up concluding that the remaining issues with lack of sound quality were related to not having the best room, inability to optimally place the speakers and untreated room modes. Meaning, I was not making the most of my beloved Axioms, therefore, the ST's would have to wait till I moved to a place where they could play to their full potential. Consequently, the Axioms stayed considerably longer and I really enjoyed them since my upgraditis had been reasoned away. And, my faith in the Axioms was restored.

Until, I helped a friend set up his basement home theater. He got the MartinLogan Encore TF for Mains and Center. After setting them up and running Audessy they were phenomenal. Unbelievably good and yet again I was disillusioned with the lack of sound quality. A speaker that was considerably cheaper sounded better in a comparably sub-optimal setup. Nothing I did could make the Axioms sound as good as the MartinLogans in my friends setup. What gives? There was nothing broken with the M60's, but something was amis. In the five years since I bought my M60's has the price point fallen that much? This time I knew it, there was no avoiding it. The Axioms are just not as good as they have been made out to be. This time upgraditis came back with full force and there was no getting rid of it.

So, I gave the speakers to my father-in-law (buku brownie points and made room for the next speaker in one shot, I'm an evil genius :D). When I helped him set anything up and dialed in just right, the M60's sound was great! Still not as good as my memory of the ST, but, definitely better than they ever sounded at my place (even when I knew of the issues and compensated for them). So, they are not bad after all, WTF!!

Being a man of science and yet, not using a logical approach is killing me. So, this time around, I'm doing things right. I'm training my ears for good sound and been spending time educating myself. Next up, auditioning speakers and hopefully, by the time an optimal room is in place, an informed speaker choice will have been made.

Opinionated commentary start >>>
Folks are apt to jump to conclusions. Internet has made it very easy for opinionated folks to vociferously disseminate their opinions and down out their opposes. Combine this with a general populace that would rather be told their opinion than create it for themselves through education and you have a potent mix of the blind leading the deaf.
<<< End
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
is it just me, or your before looks more optimal than your after?
 
gtpsuper24

gtpsuper24

Full Audioholic
What gives? There was nothing broken with the M60's, but something was amis. In the five years since I bought my M60's has the price point fallen that much? This time I knew it, there was no avoiding it. The Axioms are just not as good as they have been made out to be. This time upgraditis came back with full force and there was no getting rid of it.
Axiom hasn't kept up with its competition, especially ID brands. Axiom just believes that its true competition is ultra high end brands because their staff picks Axioms everytime in a DBT controlled by them. While they continue to keep offering the same basic models with no major improvements other brand totally revamp their entire lineups, like Kef with the Q series, Aperion with the Veritus, Emotiva with there subwoofers and new speakers, Paradigm with the new Monitor line up.

I use to think Axioms were some of the best speakers until I started ordering other brands and doing side by side testing and realized how much the Axioms lacked compared to speakers in their price range and even cheaper ones.

I compared the Axiom M2s to Arx A1s. The Arx are about $75 cheaper and they sound 10x better, deeper more articulate bass, better dynamics, much less distortion when pushed harder, cabinets are heavier and have less of a hollow sounds, smoother highs. Also compared the Axiom VP150 at almost $500 to the Arx A2 LCR $189. Again the A2 had better off axis response, deeper more articulate bass and midbass, ect....

And if you would state something like that on Axioms forum they would label you as a troll or trouble maker. One of them told me that they couldn't afford a pair of $30k Revel Salons so they got the next best thing in the M80s,:rolleyes:
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
One of them told me that they couldn't afford a pair of $30k Revel Salons so they got the next best thing in the M80s,:rolleyes:
I am as guilty as bashing Axiom as some people.:eek:

But if someone says his Axiom sound almost as good as the Salon2, I would say to him that the important thing is that he truly feels that way. If he has listened to the Salon2 and thinks his Axiom hold up well to the Salon2, then he has made the right choice and shouldn't waste more money on more expensive speakers.

But I have been as guilty at bashing Axiom, Paradigm, & B&W as some guys.

It's a new year, and I don't want to bash anymore.:D
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
But I have been as guilty at bashing Axiom, Paradigm, & B&W as some guys.

It's a new year, and I don't want to bash anymore.:D
Not guilty as long as you exclude B&W800 series and you know why..:D Okay just to be fair, do what you want but only after you got yourself a pair in your room for at least a couple of weeks.
 
S

SunnyD

Audioholic Intern
Unbelievably good and yet again I was disillusioned with the lack of sound quality.
Being disillusioned by the lack of sound quality.

I know that feeling. If that didn't happen most speaker makers would fold.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Not guilty as long as you exclude B&W800 series and you know why..:D Okay just to be fair, do what you want but only after you got yourself a pair in your room for at least a couple of weeks.
If B&W offered a free in home trial, there would have been a 800D in DenPureSound's room.:D

Mine too.:D
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Not guilty as long as you exclude B&W800 series and you know why..:D Okay just to be fair, do what you want but only after you got yourself a pair in your room for at least a couple of weeks.
Gotcha, PENG. NO more B&W bashing from me either. So here's a different speaker I came across the measurements of that I totally wouldn't want:



Look at that 3db hot tweeter, who would want that?!?! :eek: :D ;););)






:D :cool: :p
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
is it just me, or your before looks more optimal than your after?
I think the Before looks 100% better than the After.:eek::D
It is not immediately apparent that the first room is 12x12 f. and the speakers are only 1ft. from the front wall. The speakers were only 6 ft. apart and my couch was against the back wall, about 7 ft. away. In the second picture, the room is 15x15 ft., with the dining area (visible), kitchen (behind the front wall) and entrance with passage to the bedrooms (to the right of right speaker, not visible).

The new setup really did sound much better :).
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Academically, I thought +/- 3dB was the industry standard. :eek:

Of course, +/-2dB is academically better.:D

But, as long as they sound great to the owner and doesn't cause hearing discomfort & fatigue, that's all that matters.:)

I wish I could find that FR that Tom Nousaine did on the DefTech BP7001SC for DenPureSound. :D
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
Axiom hasn't kept up with its competition, especially ID brands. Axiom just believes that its true competition is ultra high end brands because their staff picks Axioms everytime in a DBT controlled by them. While they continue to keep offering the same basic models with no major improvements other brand totally revamp their entire lineups, like Kef with the Q series, Aperion with the Veritus, Emotiva with there subwoofers and new speakers, Paradigm with the new Monitor line
+1.
One of them told me that they couldn't afford a pair of $30k Revel Salons so they got the next best thing in the M80s,:rolleyes:
HAHAHAHA!!!! That's a good one.


But now the landscape has changed and everybody is pricing their speakers the same way that Axiom does. They're no longer a "value" leader. But at the very same time, they haven't magically morphed into Bose either!
...So they're certainly not the same "high value" they once were now that the competition had all caught up.
+1.

I had M60Ti towers - they're my dad's speakers now. I moved on from them after enjoying them for several years because there ARE better speakers, despite what Axiom might say about it :p But I certainly never felt like I got "ripped off" with those M60Ti towers! And I can still listen to them and think they're very good sounding speakers today!
My thoughts and oddly, almost exactly what I did with my M60's.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Whelp, I guess Granteed is resolved to think of me what he will. All I can really say is that I mean what my words literally mean, not some hidden "bashing" going on behind them. When I say, "I stress here, a little bit. I'm being very picky" that's exactly what I mean.

I mean, here's the "5 paragraphs" long reply from the other thread that has Granteed so upset:

Huh - I didn't know you were such an Epik fan, BMX :p

I'm the other side of the coin. I'm not saying it to "knock" Epik or BMX - they're certainly not "bad" subs or anything. But I'm not a fan, and I just like to let people know my honest opinion so that they can make up their own mind. It's really easy to get sucked into the hype, especially if you are already leaning a certain way. Very often, folks are looking for some sort of "consensus" about products. There are a lot of Epik fans, and with good reason. But there are also a number of us who don't think they're "teh greaterest thingz EVAR", so I just say "on the other hand" so as to balance the praise a wee bit :)

While Epik's current two models are both dual opposed driver designs in sealed cabinets, they don't actually output the natural 2nd order roll off of an unaltered sealed design. Instead, Epik uses an EQ boost in the amplifier to make their subs play flatter down to 20Hz-ish (normally, without the EQ boost, they'd start to roll off up around 40Hz with the gradual 12dB/octave slope). Below that, they put in a filter so that the slope is pretty steep - basically the response sort of mimicks what a natural ported design would deliver with flatter response to a lower frequency, and then a steep roll off below that point.

Absolutely nothing wrong with that design choice! But it's just something to be aware of as you are not getting the natural roll off tendancies of a sealed design is all. The other thing that comes with that design choice is higher distortion. In essence, that EQ is just turning up the volume on the low, below 40Hz stuff. And as you crank up the volume, you get higher distortion as the drivers are forced to move more and the amplifier is dumping more power into them.

Epik gives you a lot for your money, there's no doubt about that! But you also have to be aware that there's no magic going on. They're selling dual driver subs for similar or lower prices than single driver subs. They aren't selling them at a loss. They're using a little bit less expensive drivers so that they can keep the price down. Again, nothing wrong with that - they're choosing a design and aiming for a price point and doing what needs to be done to hit it. But you do get a little bit lower quality drivers just due to the price point. Personally, I've found the end result of all of these design choices is that Epik's subs don't sound quite as "clean" as I would like. They've got a little bit of overhang. A little bit of delay in the transient response. A little bit of audible distortion at loud listening levels.

And I stress here, "a little bit". I'm being very picky ;) I just personally prefer what some of the competition offers because I tend to favor "tightness" over extension if I have to make that choice. So I personally like the Rythmik FV12 better than the Legend in the $500 price range. And I personally like an SVSound PB12-NSD or HSU VTF-3 MK4 over the Empire in the under $800 price range. But it's a personal preference and I can understand how other people would prefer the Epik subs in those price ranges. Again, I just offer my opinion as a bit of a "counter balance" because otherwise, it's easy to think that "nothing beats an Epik at ANY price", and I just don't think that's the case. They're good subs, I just don't personally think they're "the greatest". I fell into the Epik hype too at one point and wound up disappointed. Not because the Epik subs I bought were "bad". They weren't. But simply because they weren't quite to MY taste. They had a few nit-picks that I think are worth mentioning, so that's all I'm doing :)

One of the things that happens a lot on message boards is that people are upgrading from a HTiB sub or a really cheap sub to a "proper" sub for the first time. So of course they're absolutely blown away by what an Epik sub sounds like! They've every right to! But in their excitement, they'll also get carried away and praise it a bit too much, and say things like, "I can't even imagine how any other sub could be any better!" You read something like that and it's hard not to get caught up in the hype!

But if you've been in the home theater game a long time and listened and compared a lot of great subwoofers, then you start to realize that even good subs like Epik's can still be improved upon in some areas, and you might even prefer something else in the same price class.

So no knock here. If the Epik subs float your boat, I have no beef with that! They're not MY cup o' tea. And I don't think they're necessarily the very best choice for EVERYBODY. They're the right choice for some folks though. So it's just a matter of matching a person's taste and their room and their associated equipment to the very best match possible. It might be Epik. It might be something else. But just don't get caught up in the hype ;)
He's seeing "bashing" of Epik in there. To me, I'm just saying exactly what it says there. That Epik's subs are good. That I'm being very picky. And mostly - and this is really important - that what I'm trying to warn the OP about is hype and unrealistic expectations. I'm not trying to warn the OP about Epik. I'm trying to warn him about message boards .

When I say, "one of the things that happens.." that's what I mean: one of the things that happens a lot on message boards - the folks who are coming from HTiB setups - that's one of the things you have to be careful of on message boards.

The whole 5 paragraphs are about message board recommendations - not about Epik. Epik is fine. I say that outright! I say the praise they get is "with good reason" and I stress that any nit picks that I have are little . It's the message board hype that I'm trying to warn the OP about, because message boards turn into echo chambers and things get hyped to the moon - beyond what is really true. It happened with Axiom - like I said, a good parallel. Then Axiom got ripped to shreds on the same boards. And like I said earlier in THIS thread, I'm not saying that's what SHOULD happen - not to Epik, not to Axiom, not to anyone! I'm here saying that the hate is ridiculous. I'd be "defending" Epik too if the same sort of "tide shift" ever takes place!

As I tried to tell Granteed, lots more to the "Sentinel review" story than the info that is public. I mean, I guess it doesn't matter that I've moved since then. I was in that room once, so I guess in Granteed's mind, I will ALWAYS be in that room. I've never left - not even to go to the bathroom. It's getting a bit cramped in here...lol

Anywho, I guess if you want to see "bashing" in what I wrote up there...

It's not what I meant. I don't think the words that I actually wrote reflect that. I think a person would have to have a predisposition and be reading way too much into it - not to mention missing the point of what I was actually trying to warn the OP about, which was not Epik, it was message board hype. I'll leave it to other folks to make up their own minds on it. But that's my side.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Firstreflection you do discourage folks from considering Epik subs, whether you think so or not. I can understand that, given your own negative experience, but I don't think you should be claiming that they sound worse than your preferred brands, given that, from what I gather, you have not heard any of their current product line. Josh Ricci's own review of the Empire was quite positive, and it gets nearly universal praise from its owners. I certainly wouldn't mind having one, and I think Epik would do well to submit one for review to Audioholics.
 
MinusTheBear

MinusTheBear

Audioholic Ninja
I stand by my reviews of Axiom products. In all of my reviews I listed pros and cons. Of course Axiom NEVER agreed with my cons. Anytime I had anything negative to say about their products, I received a lecture about how wrong I was and that their "science" proves so. They disagreed with my reviews so much that they never linked up my A1400 or M3 outdoor speaker reviews on their site, and this is while they were advertising. They hated Tom Andry's Emotiva surround speaker review b/c he mentioned how they outperformed a pair of QS8s that be bought personally. They actually flew me out there specifically to talk about it. Honestly I don't need companies lecturing me that mine or my staff reviews aren't favorable enough about their products. I've given Yamaha some bad press in the past for cutting costs in their amps of their receivers. Rather than them b1tching, they instead licked their wounds and made better products to replace them. This was also the birth of the Aventage line (something I pleaded for them to do). We've given RBH (one of my personal favorites) a hohum review of their 12" sub and they accepted it without complaint. I can continue to cite examples but you get the point.

Axiom was very upset about the 2010 Speaker faceoff we did which included their speakers despite their speakers did quite well. They flat out told me they will NEVER participate in any 3rd party shootouts again.

Combine that with their very questionable audio theories on Comb Filtering, DBT's, component parts, etc, and you can see why I take issue with them on some things. They honestly believe a BETTER speaker cannot be made regardless of price. The worst case scenario is their speaker will be "similarly good" in a blind test. Of course that blind test has to be conducted at their facility using their panel of listeners ;)

I still think they are a solid company with great customer service but IMO many of their products could be improved upon to better compete with other ID companies that are now making some excellent products. Their subs for example really aren't as competitive with SVS, HSU and others at the same price points as they were 5-6 years ago. There are many available ID brands of speakers now that offer higher caliber parts quality and improved sound quality for the same money or less. The market has changed in the last 5-6 years but IMO Axiom hasn't evolved to compete. That being said they have a generous return policy so if you are debating getting their speakers, GET THEM. Try them in your home. If you don't like them, send them back within 30 days and move on to another brand.

I would love to re-establish a relationship with them. I don't hold grudges. But they denounce our testing methods (ie. blind tests, groundplane sub testing, etc) and are allegedly "distancing themselves" from us, yet they still parade our review quotes all over their site. :confused:

The whole situation is quite sad as I've had a great personal relationship with them, including them visiting me at my home. I still have hope for the future but they have to realize we criticize all products and brands in our reviews (even the stuff we really like). The business model of Audioholics dictates that. IF we can get past that, great. If not, we move on and work with brands that can handle that approach.

Honestly its time to move on and stop bringing up the past. Seems like every couple of months a forum member here has to bring this up again. I am not here to diss Axiom. I don't berate them in articles and my tech articles stick to science fact peer reviewed by many industry experts like Dr. Floyd Toole. Hopefully one day we can evaluate Axiom products again and they can be happy with our review commentary and processes.
Axiom has made a response on their forum about AH and the M60.

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