2010 Audioholics $1k Floorstanding Loudspeaker Faceoff

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aazeez1975

Banned
Nearly all their recomemded system list includes above components, RBH designer appear in AVRant podcast and I have never heard any other interview with any other speaker company etc.

These are good products but there is no ultimate product in the world... I expected a more neutral analysis.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
It would be nice to include some different mfg's in these trials from t-t....outside of the usual suspects?
I understand what you mean Billy.

Much of it is due to the limited number of manufacturers that are willing to submit their product for review.
Too bad it wasn't a little like Consumer Reports; in as far as their budget to buy products for review.
 
AJinFLA

AJinFLA

Banned
These are good products but there is no ultimate product in the world
Can you give the direct quote, using the forum "quote" function (to present actual evidence and avoid any misrepresentation), where it was stated or asserted that this was a test of the "ultimate product(s) in the world".
 
E

eddie

Junior Audioholic
New Woofers?

I was wondering if Gene has received his updated woofers for the EMP E55Ti's yet. If so, I hope he udpates us on how they've affected the sound for the better or worse.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
The funny thing is that 3 of those 4 speaker companies design based on Tooles research into speaker preference. PSB, of course, is one of those. You have merely been choosing one neutral speaker with flat response over another. So there! :D
Not so fast my slippery friend!! :D There's then just flat speaker repsonse. There's crossovers, cabinets and all the inherent signatures that it imparts onto the sound, difraction, rarefraction, compression, long deep and neutrals..and the list goes on!! :D ;)
 
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fredk

Audioholic General
Not so fast my slippery friend!! :D There's then just flat speaker repsonse. There's crossovers, cabinets and all the inherent signatures that it imparts onto the sound, difraction, rarefraction, compression, long deep and neutrals..and the list goes on!! :D ;)
All of which is measured as part of that flat speaker response :D . Well, except speaker resonance, but we know from wmax that most commercial speakers suck in this area... ;)

FWIW, I gave one of the Imagine towers a short audition a couple of months ago. They sounded really good to me, like a flat neutral speaker should.
 
Coult_45

Coult_45

Junior Audioholic
those pinnacle speakers look just like some called JA audio that our in a 5.1 set. A lot of Pinnacle speakers also are very similar to NXG speakers. Does any one know if these are some kind of sister company. They almost seem to close to be knock offs. I almost bought some Pinnacle QP 5 element on wall speakers this week on ebay. However the fact that there are two other brands that have similar models that almost seam to be like white Van speakers scared me off. I have heard of Pinnacle and thought they were quality. Are the other companies related to Pinnacle. Are they also high quality. Are all three of these companies over priced low quality companies? I am really ignorant to the validity of these companies and would like to know if anyone has any thoughts.
 
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FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
It's so funny to look back at this article!

I don't recall if we ever saw an updated review/measurements for the changes that EMP was going to make to the E55Ti towers.

The craziest part has to be the way that so many people have completely turned on Axiom now though. The M60 speakers haven't changed since this article was written, and yet now, somehow Axiom is nothing but "cutting corners" and "using cheap parts" and "just as bad as Bose...all marketing and no performance". Seems to me that just a year and a half ago, the M60 at least did just fine when compared to other $1000/pair tower speakers. The speakers themselves didn't change. I guess everyone's hearing just matured drastically since then :rolleyes:

Anywho, it's fun to look back at this fine example of how different people's preferences in sound reproduction are very much subjective and easily altered by factors OTHER than just the pure output of the speakers themselves.

But yeah, the "Axiom is just as bad as Bose" stuff just cracks me up. It makes it pretty obvious who's actually heard Axiom's speakers and who is just piling on the bandwagon and spreading unwarranted hate. Don't get me wrong, Axiom's stupid for saying no speaker can be any better than their speakers and for talking up science and "blind testing" so much in their marketing. In my own listening, I really like some of their speakers, and I'm not so impressed with some of their other speakers. The M60's are one of their models that I quite like though. But on the message boards, if a company makes ONE model that people don't like, then ALL of their models are crap - cause the internet is binary :p

Honestly, I hope Gene patches things up with Axiom. It's so sad and stupid when what ought to be MINOR complaints and disagreements get exaggerated into the sort of extreme "stand off" that I've seen peddled on the forums. I don't know what it will take, but I hope Gene, for his part, might look back on an article like this and set the record straight that he doesn't think Axiom's products are "the devil" (cause he's never said anything like that, but this whole "falling out" has been exaggerated into such ridiculousness by others), and for Axiom's part, I hope they'll look at an article like this and realize that when you've got a panel of listeners who are NOT intimiately familiar with Axiom's sound, they don't necessarily always pick Axiom as the "winner" in a comparison - and it isn't because the comparison was "unfair" or "not set up properly". It's because there ARE still things that Axiom could do to further improve their sound - admittedly, potentially at higher cost - and because when the people listening can't recognize Axiom's sound while blindfolded (the way Axiom's own staff can), then they aren't biased to always pick it as their favorite!

But yeah, this notion that Axiom's speakers are somehow WAY overpriced and made from super cheap parts and are all about pure profit and marketing - that just doesn't pan out. If that were true, the M60's wouldn't compete with these other $1000 speakers. Intead, they stand toe-to-toe just fine, trading punches, sounding "better" in some areas and "worse" in others when compared to the competition. Seems like they're perfectly in line, performance wise, with their price points. And my own listening supports that opinion as well :)
 
billy p

billy p

Audioholic Ninja
It's so funny to look back at this article!

I don't recall if we ever saw an updated review/measurements for the changes that EMP was going to make to the E55Ti towers.

The craziest part has to be the way that so many people have completely turned on Axiom now though. The M60 speakers haven't changed since this article was written, and yet now, somehow Axiom is nothing but "cutting corners" and "using cheap parts" and "just as bad as Bose...all marketing and no performance". Seems to me that just a year and a half ago, the M60 at least did just fine when compared to other $1000/pair tower speakers. The speakers themselves didn't change. I guess everyone's hearing just matured drastically since then :rolleyes:

Anywho, it's fun to look back at this fine example of how different people's preferences in sound reproduction are very much subjective and easily altered by factors OTHER than just the pure output of the speakers themselves.

But yeah, the "Axiom is just as bad as Bose" stuff just cracks me up. It makes it pretty obvious who's actually heard Axiom's speakers and who is just piling on the bandwagon and spreading unwarranted hate. Don't get me wrong, Axiom's stupid for saying no speaker can be any better than their speakers and for talking up science and "blind testing" so much in their marketing. In my own listening, I really like some of their speakers, and I'm not so impressed with some of their other speakers. The M60's are one of their models that I quite like though. But on the message boards, if a company makes ONE model that people don't like, then ALL of their models are crap - cause the internet is binary :p

Honestly, I hope Gene patches things up with Axiom. It's so sad and stupid when what ought to be MINOR complaints and disagreements get exaggerated into the sort of extreme "stand off" that I've seen peddled on the forums. I don't know what it will take, but I hope Gene, for his part, might look back on an article like this and set the record straight that he doesn't think Axiom's products are "the devil" (cause he's never said anything like that, but this whole "falling out" has been exaggerated into such ridiculousness by others), and for Axiom's part, I hope they'll look at an article like this and realize that when you've got a panel of listeners who are NOT intimiately familiar with Axiom's sound, they don't necessarily always pick Axiom as the "winner" in a comparison - and it isn't because the comparison was "unfair" or "not set up properly". It's because there ARE still things that Axiom could do to further improve their sound - admittedly, potentially at higher cost - and because when the people listening can't recognize Axiom's sound while blindfolded (the way Axiom's own staff can), then they aren't biased to always pick it as their favorite!

But yeah, this notion that Axiom's speakers are somehow WAY overpriced and made from super cheap parts and are all about pure profit and marketing - that just doesn't pan out. If that were true, the M60's wouldn't compete with these other $1000 speakers. Intead, they stand toe-to-toe just fine, trading punches, sounding "better" in some areas and "worse" in others when compared to the competition. Seems like they're perfectly in line, performance wise, with their price points. And my own listening supports that opinion as well :)
Wow....your quickly becoming a folk hero over at the Axiom forum...;). I agree with you their speakers don't sound nearly as bad as people make them out to be. I bought my Axioms solely based on Audioholics approval of them...am I satisfied well...yes...but my Energies at roughly the same time were IMO better speakers for roughly the same cost.
 
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FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Ha! I've never even posted anything on the Axiom forum! I'm also not an Axiom fanboy. I'm not even "on their side" :p

I just think the whole thing got utterly ridiculous. I thought the hype about Axiom speakers when they were first really building up around the interwebs got out of control too. I guess they were "due" for some sort of backlash. But it really just all went sideways.

I mean, basically, Axiom's speakers really haven't changed in, like, over a decade! there have been subtle changes, but they're very much largely the same. They were solid, good speakers (most of the models, anyway) when they first came out as the "Millenia Line". Since they really haven't changed much, it just boggles me that they somehow "morphed" into "bad" speakers in some people's view. It just doesn't make any sense at all. But there were people who'd never heard any Axiom speakers who were hyping them to the moon, and now there are people declaring them to be "crap" who also have never heard them.

That's just stupid :p

What HAS changed in the past decade is that the competition has gotten a lot fiercer. Axiom was one of the early internet-direct speaker companies to get some exposure and gain in popularity. Back then, store prices were still considerably higher for similar quality, and that's really how they built their "value" image and gained all the "sound just as good as speakers costing twice or three times the price!" pull quotes.

But now the landscape has changed and everybody is pricing their speakers the same way that Axiom does. They're no longer a "value" leader. But at the very same time, they haven't magically morphed into Bose either! They've stayed static, everyone else has shifted. Maybe they deserve to take some lumps for that, but they didn't suddenly get way WORSE, which is what all the haters are trying to make it sound like.

I actually had an email conversation with the folks at Axiom WAY back - about ten years ago now - where I was asking them if they were planning to maybe design and release any higher end, higher priced speakers using higher quality parts. Even back then, they basically said to me that the speakers they were making were about as good as a speaker could ever get, but that they WERE planning on offering some higher end, higher priced finish options ;) Of course, those turned out to be the VaSSallo finish options, but yeah, they never went to higher end drivers or cabinet designs. Just stuck with what they had, although the subwoofer offerings were a new addition with the 400, 500, 600 and eventually the 800.

I had M60Ti towers - they're my dad's speakers now. I moved on from them after enjoying them for several years because there ARE better speakers, despite what Axiom might say about it :p But I certainly never felt like I got "ripped off" with those M60Ti towers! And I can still listen to them and think they're very good sounding speakers today! Human hearing hasn't changed! That's why it's so crazy to see these claims about Axiom speakers being "bad" are so insane.

So they're certainly not the same "high value" they once were now that the competition has all caught up. I absolutely agree with folks like Gene who really want them to get their heads out of the sand and start to really push forward again. They basically just plateaued and weren't ever really looking to get any better, it seems, so that part is most definitely disappointing! I suppose the "silver lining" in this "sea change" on the message boards is that it might actually affect their sales enough that they're forced to innovate again. I'd be happy about that! But it shouldn't take misinformation and completely negative hyperbole to make something like that happen.

The only reason I "supported" Axiom and "defended" them to some degree is because I didn't understand and didn't like to see what seemed like hypocrisy from the staff at Audioholics. I mean, there's no denying that they gave positive reviews to Axiom products and heaped a fair amount of praise on them. The reviews are all still on the website. It's not like Audioholics can deny what's said in them! Gene's always maintained that advertising has no effect on reviews or what is said in them. And Audioholics' motto is "persuing the truth in audio & video" for Pete's sake! So to read what is basically a total 180 stance on Axiom just seemed completely hypocritical and, I think, hurt Audioholics' reputation just as much as it hurt Axiom's!

I've already asked a lot of questions and said a lot of my opinions in other threads, and to Gene's and Audioholics' staff's credit, they've answered those questions and better explained just what the heck went on and where their complaints about Axiom came from. It's settled down a bit. But Audioholics is still running its series of "Detailed Look" articles, which all stemmed from the turmoil surrounding Axiom. Every one of those articles is basically just a veiled jab at Axiom, so I'm still not terribly impressed with the way this "argument" continues to be pealed back like an old scab.

The bottom line in all of it though has to be: how do Axiom's speakers actually SOUND? Cause if they sounded good 10 years ago, and they haven't changed, then they still sound good now! They're not the same value anymore, that's perfectly fine to say. But if they sound the same - and they pretty much do - then it makes zero sense to suddenly be calling them "bad" speakers and putting them in the same category as Bose. Does it really matter if they're using less expensive parts than you would LIKE to see? If you can't hear the difference? I think I'd have to argue: no. SVSound goes above and beyond on their parts quality - they're forced to up the prices on their subs as a result, and they got some backlash for THAT because they're no longer a "cheap" awesome subwoofer company! Just an "awesome" awesome sub company :rolleyes: Epik gets a pass on using lower quality, inexpensive parts because they're still a forum "darling" and people are always looking for a "too good to be true" deal. And they DO deliver tremendous deep extension and output on their very inexpensive subs. They just have some overhang and distortion to go along with it. So when are they going to come under fire for "cutting corners"? Elemental designs used to be a darling. Then they got a batch of bad amps and didn't have the customer service staff to really handle the issue, so now they're "the devil" and everything about their amps and customer service is "dreadful".

It's all the hyper-extremism, binary, hipster attitude of the internet forums that's the problem. But my beef with Audioholics was that, for a little while at least, they sort of fed that angry beast when it came to Axiom, rather than putting it on a short leash and reeling the mob back in. I'm disappointed that Axiom has basically just put its head down, closed its ears, and trudged on forward with the same game plan they've been using for over 10 years. But then again, the new VP160 center looks like an indication that maybe some of the criticism got through. Like I said, maybe there will be a silver lining to it all in the end. But, at some point, I would REALLY like it all to just come back to the SOUND, and for someone to admit that they were either lying - or at the very least exaggerating - about how good Axiom's speakers "used" to be, or that they're lying - or at the very least exaggerating - about how "bad" they are now, because the SOUND hasn't changed! So something doesn't add up here.
 
billy p

billy p

Audioholic Ninja
^^^...it just that one of your other posts was brought up in one of their sub forums because of recent events found here & AVS....belive me they're not above reproach when making their feeling known publically by certain members when it comes to AH or AVS.

Just my 2 cents....:)
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
And they DO deliver tremendous deep extension and output on their very inexpensive subs. They just have some overhang and distortion to go along with it
Look, your anti Epik schtick is getting tired, especially for those of us who know that you've got a vendetta. If you understood that a subwoofer flat to 20hz anechoically will sound sluggish in room (whether that's an epik, SVS, or Rythmik) instead of constantly going on off topic tirades (this is the second time this week from you) when the only reason you "prefer other subwoofers (with your preference going towards subs that fall off the map at 25hz)" is because they worked better corner loaded in your room without you taking any measurements or equalization to figure out what the actual issue was.

There's other things I could say on that topic but again it's totally off topic. You make it sound like everyone's anti axiom, when no one's even interested in pro or anti axiomism in the first place. No one's pro axiom anymore, because at every price point there's better options, and they sure haven't revamped their lineup to catch up with the times.

But, at some point, I would REALLY like it all to just come back to the SOUND, and for someone to admit that they were either lying - or at the very least exaggerating - about how good Axiom's speakers "used" to be, or that they're lying - or at the very least exaggerating - about how "bad" they are now, because the SOUND hasn't changed! So something doesn't add up here.
When I first heard a pair of $40 Sennheiser I thought they were the best thing since sliced bread. At the same price point all the Philips, Sony, etc headphone I had ever heard at that time, just sounded awful in comparision. It's safe to say that all the improvements I heard had me mesmerized - the RELATIVE neutrality and quality was a huge step up.

In retrospect my thoughts are much different. Did the sound of those Sennheisers change? No. But there's definitely better out there than I might have unabashedly said at the time, to the point where when I listen to the same headphones now, they sound overly warm in the lower midrange, and unresolving in the upper mids and highs.

Am I anti Sennheiser? Of course not. In Sennheiser's case they have some real high end stuff i've yet to even hear. But i've definitely heard MUCH better since, including near the same price points. I can safely say that if they still make those particular headphones, they'd be outclassed. Maybe the problem with Axiom is that the sound HASN'T changed. The "idea" behind internet direct has always been implied higher value than brick and mortar, so they went from being one of the very few options, to one in a hundred, but the sound HASN'T changed.

As for "the series of articles", it's not a jab at Axiom's speakers dollar for dollar, although i'm sure it's inspired by Axiom's wild claims. If anything, the content is critical of some of the very same companies that we like (For example, the KEF Q900s are one of our favorite speakers, but they've got many of the flaws that are criticized by the articles if you can understand the measurements, but as a whole are speakers most of us would love. However the R900s seem to improve on the many issues with their less expensive siblings (reduction of metal cone breakup, actual high pass filter on the midrange, MUCH more sturdy cabinet). So is Audioholics anti-KEF????? KEF is a very similar company to Axiom in many regards. If you look at the Q900s you can see everywhere costs were cut. It's not a knock on Axiom that their $1500 speakers have some issues. It's a knock that this is supposed to be the best you can get, and everything else is similarily good. Uh... KEF sure ain't sayin the Q900s are similarily good to the R900s/ 207/R / Blade / Muon etc (IE that differences would be only aesthetic). RBH ain't sayin the R55Ti with its electrolytic caps and cabinet that vibrates like a guitar string is the equal of the SX-8300 or Status Acoustics Titus? So what's the difference? Interest. It's in Axiom's interest to tell you that half-assed speakers are as good as it gets. And at that price point they probably are pretty close to that. But not PERIOD.

As for the whole "holds its own against other speakers in the price class", I think this article shows that people can prefer more emphasis drums and hi-hats, since the klipsch seemed to come out as the "winners".

For most of us those same Klipsch don't really qualify as speakers we'd want to spend our money on. That's not a knock on Klipsch either - they've got their demographic and they're making their money doing it just like axiom - but it sure doesn't show me anything meaningful, other than "First Reflection hates Epik and loves to make a point out of it".
 
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gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
It's so funny to look back at this article!

I don't recall if we ever saw an updated review/measurements for the changes that EMP was going to make to the E55Ti towers.

The craziest part has to be the way that so many people have completely turned on Axiom now though. The M60 speakers haven't changed since this article was written, and yet now, somehow Axiom is nothing but "cutting corners" and "using cheap parts" and "just as bad as Bose...all marketing and no performance". Seems to me that just a year and a half ago, the M60 at least did just fine when compared to other $1000/pair tower speakers. The speakers themselves didn't change. I guess everyone's hearing just matured drastically since then :rolleyes:

Anywho, it's fun to look back at this fine example of how different people's preferences in sound reproduction are very much subjective and easily altered by factors OTHER than just the pure output of the speakers themselves.

But yeah, the "Axiom is just as bad as Bose" stuff just cracks me up. It makes it pretty obvious who's actually heard Axiom's speakers and who is just piling on the bandwagon and spreading unwarranted hate. Don't get me wrong, Axiom's stupid for saying no speaker can be any better than their speakers and for talking up science and "blind testing" so much in their marketing. In my own listening, I really like some of their speakers, and I'm not so impressed with some of their other speakers. The M60's are one of their models that I quite like though. But on the message boards, if a company makes ONE model that people don't like, then ALL of their models are crap - cause the internet is binary :p

Honestly, I hope Gene patches things up with Axiom. It's so sad and stupid when what ought to be MINOR complaints and disagreements get exaggerated into the sort of extreme "stand off" that I've seen peddled on the forums. I don't know what it will take, but I hope Gene, for his part, might look back on an article like this and set the record straight that he doesn't think Axiom's products are "the devil" (cause he's never said anything like that, but this whole "falling out" has been exaggerated into such ridiculousness by others), and for Axiom's part, I hope they'll look at an article like this and realize that when you've got a panel of listeners who are NOT intimiately familiar with Axiom's sound, they don't necessarily always pick Axiom as the "winner" in a comparison - and it isn't because the comparison was "unfair" or "not set up properly". It's because there ARE still things that Axiom could do to further improve their sound - admittedly, potentially at higher cost - and because when the people listening can't recognize Axiom's sound while blindfolded (the way Axiom's own staff can), then they aren't biased to always pick it as their favorite!

But yeah, this notion that Axiom's speakers are somehow WAY overpriced and made from super cheap parts and are all about pure profit and marketing - that just doesn't pan out. If that were true, the M60's wouldn't compete with these other $1000 speakers. Instead, they stand toe-to-toe just fine, trading punches, sounding "better" in some areas and "worse" in others when compared to the competition. Seems like they're perfectly in line, performance wise, with their price points. And my own listening supports that opinion as well :)
I stand by my reviews of Axiom products. In all of my reviews I listed pros and cons. Of course Axiom NEVER agreed with my cons. Anytime I had anything negative to say about their products, I received a lecture about how wrong I was and that their "science" proves so. They disagreed with my reviews so much that they never linked up my A1400 or M3 outdoor speaker reviews on their site, and this is while they were advertising. They hated Tom Andry's Emotiva surround speaker review b/c he mentioned how they outperformed a pair of QS8s that be bought personally. They actually flew me out there specifically to talk about it. Honestly I don't need companies lecturing me that mine or my staff reviews aren't favorable enough about their products. I've given Yamaha some bad press in the past for cutting costs in their amps of their receivers. Rather than them b1tching, they instead licked their wounds and made better products to replace them. This was also the birth of the Aventage line (something I pleaded for them to do). We've given RBH (one of my personal favorites) a hohum review of their 12" sub and they accepted it without complaint. I can continue to cite examples but you get the point.

Axiom was very upset about the 2010 Speaker faceoff we did which included their speakers despite their speakers did quite well. They flat out told me they will NEVER participate in any 3rd party shootouts again.

Combine that with their very questionable audio theories on Comb Filtering, DBT's, component parts, etc, and you can see why I take issue with them on some things. They honestly believe a BETTER speaker cannot be made regardless of price. The worst case scenario is their speaker will be "similarly good" in a blind test. Of course that blind test has to be conducted at their facility using their panel of listeners ;)

I still think they are a solid company with great customer service but IMO many of their products could be improved upon to better compete with other ID companies that are now making some excellent products. Their subs for example really aren't as competitive with SVS, HSU and others at the same price points as they were 5-6 years ago. There are many available ID brands of speakers now that offer higher caliber parts quality and improved sound quality for the same money or less. The market has changed in the last 5-6 years but IMO Axiom hasn't evolved to compete. That being said they have a generous return policy so if you are debating getting their speakers, GET THEM. Try them in your home. If you don't like them, send them back within 30 days and move on to another brand.

I would love to re-establish a relationship with them. I don't hold grudges. But they denounce our testing methods (ie. blind tests, groundplane sub testing, etc) and are allegedly "distancing themselves" from us, yet they still parade our review quotes all over their site. :confused:

The whole situation is quite sad as I've had a great personal relationship with them, including them visiting me at my home. I still have hope for the future but they have to realize we criticize all products and brands in our reviews (even the stuff we really like). The business model of Audioholics dictates that. IF we can get past that, great. If not, we move on and work with brands that can handle that approach.

Honestly its time to move on and stop bringing up the past. Seems like every couple of months a forum member here has to bring this up again. I am not here to diss Axiom. I don't berate them in articles and my tech articles stick to science fact peer reviewed by many industry experts like Dr. Floyd Toole. Hopefully one day we can evaluate Axiom products again and they can be happy with our review commentary and processes.
 
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F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Huh...I guess Granteed got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. Had no idea there was a beef between us, mate. But I'm not about to lie to people when it comes to my own personal experiences and what I've heard just to agree with everything that you say. I've got no vendetta against Epik. I just recommended an Epik sub to someone here on the forum the other day because I honestly thought it was the best choice for that person.

I dunno, maybe your enitre last post was all sarcasm just to poke a bit of fun at what I was saying about the exaggeration of forum people? Didn't read like it though. Hope your day goes better...
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
I was wondering what the heck happened. I was very excited about Axiom when the first M80 review was posted and have kept that mental image of the company since. Then I join the boards a few months back and hear nothing but criticism about a product that hasn't changed.

Sounds like their attitude is lousy, and I can honestly say that does tarnish my opinion, but would not prevent me from some day performing my own loudspeaker shoot out by taking advantage of their return policy :)
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
I stand by my reviews of Axiom products. In all of my reviews I listed pros and cons. Of course Axiom NEVER agreed with my cons. Anytime I had anything negative to say about their products, I received a lecture about how wrong I was and that their "science" proves so. They disagreed with my reviews so much that they never linked up my A1400 or M3 outdoor speaker reviews on their site, and this is while they were advertising. They hated Tom Andry's Emotiva surround speaker review b/c he mentioned how they outperformed a pair of QS8s that be bought personally. They actually flew me out there specifically to talk about it. Honestly I don't need companies lecturing me that mine or my staff reviews aren't favorable enough about their products. I've given Yamaha some bad press in the past for cutting costs in their amps of their receivers. Rather than them b1tching, they instead licked their wounds and made better products to replace them. This was also the birth of the Aventage line (something I pleaded for them to do). We've given RBH (one of my personal favorites) a hohum review of their 12" sub and they accepted it without complaint. I can continue to cite examples but you get the point.

Axiom was very upset about the 2010 Speaker faceoff we did which included their speakers despite their speakers did quite well. They flat out told me they will NEVER participate in any 3rd party shootouts again.

Combine that with their very questionable audio theories on Comb Filtering, DBT's, component parts, etc, and you can see why I take issue with them on some things. They honestly believe a BETTER speaker cannot be made regardless of price. The worst case scenario is their speaker will be "similarly good" in a blind test. Of course that blind test has to be conducted at their facility using their panel of listeners ;)

I still think they are a solid company with great customer service but IMO many of their products could be improved upon to better compete with other ID companies that are now making some excellent products. Their subs for example really aren't as competitive with SVS, HSU and others at the same price points as they were 5-6 years ago. There are many available ID brands of speakers now that offer higher caliber parts quality and improved sound quality for the same money or less. The market has changed in the last 5-6 years but IMO Axiom hasn't evolved to compete.

I would love to re-establish a relationship with them. I don't hold grudges. But they denounce our testing methods (ie. blind tests, groundplane sub testing, etc) and are allegedly "distancing themselves" from us, yet they still parade our review quotes all over their site. :confused:

The whole situation is quite sad as I've had a great personal relationship with them, including them visiting me at my home. I still have hope for the future but they have to realize we criticize all products and brands in our reviews (even the stuff we really like). The business model of Audioholics dictates that. IF we can get past that, great. If not, we move on and work with brands that can handle that approach.

Honestly its time to move on and stop bringing up the past. Seems like every couple of months a forum member here has to bring this up again. I am not here to diss Axiom. I don't berate them in articles and my tech articles stick to science fact peer reviewed by many industry experts like Dr. Floyd Toole. Hopefully one day we can evaluate Axiom products again and they can be happy with our review commentary and processes.
Awesome. It took me some time, but I'm honestly in total agreement with what you just said here. I think you would agree that the hyperbolic "everything Axiom makes is crap" trolls are off the mark and taking your valid criticisms to a ridiculous extreme that does NOT reflect the truth.

You saying that you stand behind your previous reviews - remarks to relative price competition notwithstanding what competitors have done since the reviews were written - I take that to mean that there ARE some good Axiom speakers, and they really haven't changed to become bad speakers over the years. That's really all I've been trying to say.

The reason it comes up for me is because I will still recommend an M2 or an M3 or an M22 or an M60 when it fits what someone is looking for. But I'll inevitably get someone screaming that I'm giving dreadful advice and that I clearly have no idea about audio because I'm recommending a "company that's just as bad a Bose" :rolleyes: I don't think I'd be so off the mark to think that there are some very respected reviewers, including you, Gene, who would still say that those particular models are honestly pretty good speakers and not at all "dreadful" compared to the competition in the same price range. The problem is, I can't so much as point to a previous review because it re-opens this whole giant can of worms every time and, I'm sorry to say it, it even winds up dragging Audioholics through the mud a bit because people who've never followed this whole boondoggle get confused seeing what are generally positive reviews of these particular models and then have to weigh that against all the utterly horrible things that are being said about ALL Axiom speakers by the haters. It's this complete, polar opposite ends of the spectrum that hurts EVERYONE - and that's really why I'm wishing for a solid, peaceful, happy resolution because I don't think either "side" ends up being well represented or looking good, and both Axiom AND Audioholics deserve better than that.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Awesome. It took me some time, but I'm honestly in total agreement with what you just said here. I think you would agree that the hyperbolic "everything Axiom makes is crap" trolls are off the mark and taking your valid criticisms to a ridiculous extreme that does NOT reflect the truth.

You saying that you stand behind your previous reviews - remarks to relative price competition notwithstanding what competitors have done since the reviews were written - I take that to mean that there ARE some good Axiom speakers, and they really haven't changed to become bad speakers over the years. That's really all I've been trying to say.

The reason it comes up for me is because I will still recommend an M2 or an M3 or an M22 or an M60 when it fits what someone is looking for. But I'll inevitably get someone screaming that I'm giving dreadful advice and that I clearly have no idea about audio because I'm recommending a "company that's just as bad a Bose" :rolleyes: I don't think I'd be so off the mark to think that there are some very respected reviewers, including you, Gene, who would still say that those particular models are honestly pretty good speakers and not at all "dreadful" compared to the competition in the same price range. The problem is, I can't so much as point to a previous review because it re-opens this whole giant can of worms every time and, I'm sorry to say it, it even winds up dragging Audioholics through the mud a bit because people who've never followed this whole boondoggle get confused seeing what are generally positive reviews of these particular models and then have to weigh that against all the utterly horrible things that are being said about ALL Axiom speakers by the haters. It's this complete, polar opposite ends of the spectrum that hurts EVERYONE - and that's really why I'm wishing for a solid, peaceful, happy resolution because I don't think either "side" ends up being well represented or looking good, and both Axiom AND Audioholics deserve better than that.
Most of Axiom speakers have a pleasing sound to them IMO. Plenty of bass and treble but a bit recessed in the mids. I can see the appeal to their sound and why they have so many loyal followers. Great customer service too and fast FREE shipping. That being said, I feel they have potential to be so much more if they invest a little more product $$$'s into higher performance parts, cabinet bracing, and design execution, etc. These could be upgrade or different series options similar to how Paradigm and PSB have different caliber of products based on price.

I don't in any way feel that Axiom is comparable to Bose. I cannot tolerate Bose sound for anything other than casual background listening while I get a teeth cleaning at the dentist :) and that's despite the fact they are a regular advertiser on this site through our 3rd party ad agency!
 
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