YPAO. And speaker leveling

[mtrycrafts]

If I do the manual set up, and engage the manual test tones The volume control does not auto set itself The manual tells me to set the volume too "0" which in my opinion is pretty loud especially when you have supersensitive efficient speakers your not having to adjust them too much before you reach 83 DB

I think this is where your issue is. 0 is the right setting on the master volume if anything less is a - number.
I asked because on the Onky receivers I have and had, the master volume goes to 0 on its own when the test is engaged.
The internal test tone is -30 dB FS which means that you need to trim each channel to measure 75 dB spl on your spl meter. The sub I set to taste, maybe 78-80dB, some do even more.

Do this and let us know how it turns out.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

Ok. The only thing I'm worried about is, I have all speakers set to 82db ok. And that put my surrounds at -3.5 and mains at -4.0 and -2.0 the center is -5.5 and so forth. Now that's the master volume at "0" and everything calibrated to 82db. Now if I change it back to 75db I'll be turning everything down quite a bit further. Like my left main RF-7. It's at -4 now at 82db so 75db may be at -8. My biggest concern with this all was just how accurate all of these automated calibration systems are. YPAO has never put my speakers down that far.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

I can't thank you all enough for your help. I really can't remember where YPAO auto sets the volume. I know loud. When I do the manual set up With the internal pink noise generator , I have to manually turn volume to "0"

 

[herbu]

Ok. The only thing I'm worried about is, I have all speakers set to 82db ok. And that put my surrounds at -3.5 and mains at -6.0 and -6.5, the center is -5.5 and so forth. Now that's the master volume at "0" and everything calibrated to 82db. Now if I change it back to 75db I'll be turning everything down quite a bit further. Like my left main RF-7. It's at -4 now at 82db so 75db may be at -8. My biggest concern with this all was just how accurate is all of this automated calibration systems. YPAO has never put my speakers down that far.

I don't think there is anything magical about 82dB or 75dB. They're just some reference. The intent of leveling is to balance all your speakers, regardless of the volume.

I think it's more important to set your levels so that all speakers are centered as close around "0" in your AVR as possible. This allows you the most flexibility to adjust according to your taste. Don't worry so much about the volume during leveling. You have a master volume control you can use while listening.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

Exactly Thank you. I was actually going to leave it where it was 82Db. Like you said, at master volume "0" The key is to get all speakers to be outputting the same decibel level Thank you!! My big thing was how off YPAO was. I mean think about it for a minute , My RF-7 is 101 db efficient, powered by a Mcintosh Mc252 which is 250 x 2 , now YPAO turns those up to +6 and + 6.5 , that's almost full volume in the receiver , while turning down less efficient speakers like the RC-64ii to +3.5 and RS-62 surrounds to +4.5 . Now one would think maybe the distances are really off, but they're pretty comparable meaning all very similar

 

[TLS Guy]

Exactly Thank you. I was actually going to leave it where it was 82Db. Like you said, at master volume "0" The key is to get all speakers to be outputting the same decibel level Thank you!! My big thing was how off YPAO was. I mean think about it for a minute , My RF-7 is 101 db efficient, powered by a Mcintosh Mc252 which is 250 x 2 , now YPAO turns those up to +6 and + 6.5 , that's almost full volume in the receiver , while turning down less efficient speakers like the RC-64ii to +3.5 and RS-62 surrounds to +4.5 . Now one would think maybe the distances are really off, but they're pretty comparable meaning all very similar

Obviously this thread has generated controversy, so I'm going to step in.

Since you are powering the RF-7s with an external amp and a Mac at that, the speaker sensitivity is only one part of the equation now.

A speaker leveling program in the receiver is pretty simple and not likely to be in error. Equalizing a speaker is always problematic as frequency errors are almost always associated with the retained energy. My view and others is that speaker Eq is fools gold. You need to fix the speaker.

As far as level is concerned the overriding issue is the gain structure of the Mac compared to the Yamaha. This is not standard and will be different. So almost certainly the Yamaha is compensating for the difference in gain structure.

The next issue is that the Mac uses auto transformers. This is done by Mac I think mainly to prevent speaker damage from DC off set, as it makes DC offset impossible. Also it reduces current demands somewhat in the output stage.

However other manufacturers have for some time developed reliable high current output stages and reliable robust protection from DC off set.

The downside of auto transformers are many. The first being the it introduces yet another inductor in the speaker path. This path is already a complex witches brew.

Now this is the impedance and phase angle curve of you speakers.

Now you thought those speakers were an easy drive due to high sensitivity, didn't you? Well both the impedance curve and phase angles are horrible. Impedance ranges from 3.2 ohms to 50 ohms. The phase angle varies from -60 degrees to +70 degrees.

So where do you set the auto transformer? Well not on the 8 ohm tap for sure! You set it on the lowest possible, or amp/speaker load will be severely mismatched and current limited.

I have close friend with B & W 800Ds driven by a MAC amp with auto transformers.

One end of the drive, one end of the solitary winding and one end of the load is connected to ground. The positive to the load can be connected to a different region of the winding.

Now my friends 800 Ds are rated at 8 ohms, but drop well below 4 ohms. The dealer set the auto transformers to 8 ohms and the speakers were dogs. Things were much better on the four ohm tap.

I called the MAC engineers and they confirmed that the tap selected should be as close as possible to the minimal impedance of the speaker.

I still think this whole transformer system is a bad idea, especially for most speakers. I have had a chance to look at the situation closely. I know I would never want to own a MAC amp with auto transformers. I do know I would only ever use one with a speaker with a very benign impedance curve and favorable phase angles, and that is not most.

So I'm certain YPAO is setting the speaker levels correctly given the differing gain structures and the almost certain wrong setting of the auto transformer tap you have selected.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

Ok. Wow. I had no idea. I worked at store a bought this directly from Mcintosh. Under a dealer accommodation. And I was given the wrong information I was told to use the 8ohm tap. So you are saying switch it to the 2 ohm or 4 ohm tap?? I'll do that then I will re-run YPAO. This is probably been my problem all along Thank you so much for taking the time. So you would recommend which Tap?? And switching to a lower impedance tap would not limit the power to the speaker ?

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

So it looks like your definitely saying use the. ( 2 OHM TAP). ?

 

[TLS Guy]

Ok. Wow. I had no idea. I worked at store a bought this directly from Mcintosh. Under a dealer accommodation. And I was given the wrong information I was told to use the 8ohm tap. So you are saying switch it to the 2 ohm or 4 ohm tap?? I'll do that then I will re-run YPAO. This is probably been my problem all along Thank you so much for taking the time. So you would recommend which Tap?? And switching to a lower impedance tap would not limit the power to the speaker ?

I would try both. The minimal impedance is pretty much right between 2 and 4 ohms. I would see which gives the best output. Since the phase angles go so sharply negative close to the minimum impedance, my hunch is the 2 ohm tap will be best.

Don't forget the major reason for your problem is most likely differing gain structures. When setting up multi channel systems it is actually optimal if all the amps are the same. This is not only because of gain structure issues, but also phase response.

When you put different amps on the scope it is unusual for them to be perfectly in phase and can be 180 degrees out of phase with each other!

This is just one of the reasons these auto set ups can register out of phase condition, when the speakers are supposedly wired correctly. The bigger reason is drivers, especially mids, and tweeters purposely wired out of phase to prevent a null at crossover. The problem is that if you have a system were some speakers have drivers wired out of phase and others don't you can not get a properly phased system whatever you do.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

I knew all along something was not right . Again thank you I will definitely try the 2 ohm first then re-run YPAO. It will be interesting to see where it sets all the speaker levels after the switch . Thanks

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

Now Mcintosh told me to leave on the 8ohm tap. He said when you put on the 4 or 2 you Will get significantly less power to the speakers. According to my manual All taps are 250RMS regardless of which one you use

 

[mtrycrafts]

I don't think there is anything magical about 82dB or 75dB. They're just some reference. The intent of leveling is to balance all your speakers, regardless of the volume.

I think it's more important to set your levels so that all speakers are centered as close around "0" in your AVR as possible. This allows you the most flexibility to adjust according to your taste. Don't worry so much about the volume during leveling. You have a master volume control you can use while listening.

Yes, leveling the speakers is important indeed.
But, using the correct level of test signal such as -20dB FS or -30dB SF requires the correct target spl levels on the meter. So, knowing the test signal level is just as important that follows the target spl level.

 

[mtrycrafts]

..., I have to manually turn volume to "0"

One more question to you about this 0. Are there + numbers above this 0 if you continue increasing?
Or, 0 is max? This too is important. The Onkyo I have goes to +16 I believe but 0 is the master set point.
When you try to find out if it goes above 0 make sure you either mute or select an unused input; don't want an sound explosion

So, if your volume control maxed out at 0, then you should use about -15 on it to level match to 75 dB.
Forgot which receiver you have. May want to call the maker and ask if they know the test tone level compared to Full Scale, -20 or -30 as it should be for home audio components.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Now Mcintosh told me to leave on the 8ohm tap. He said when you put on the 4 or 2 you Will get significantly less power to the speakers. According to my manual All taps are 250RMS regardless of which one you use

I agree, leave it on 8 ohms.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

Mine goes to +16 too

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

And thinking about it I don't think my amplifier is limiting power because when I manually do the leveling my RF-7's are at -4 and -2. And that's calibrated to 82 DB I believe YPAO is just doing something weird

 

[mtrycrafts]

Mine goes to +16 too

So you are on the right track then with 0. I would try that 75 dB levels or even trying a test disc to see if you get the same results. See what level the volume control is when you listen to music or watch movies that are comfortable for you.

 

[TLS Guy]

Now Mcintosh told me to leave on the 8ohm tap. He said when you put on the 4 or 2 you Will get significantly less power to the speakers. According to my manual All taps are 250RMS regardless of which one you use

That is what the underlings will tell you. Klipsch say they are 8 ohm speakers, but they are not. The speakers are significantly below 8 ohms in the power range from 80 to 800 Hz.

This goes to the heart of what is wrong with that Mac auto transformer system. It makes them much more similar to tube amps that do not like wide impedance fluctuations. The auto transformer is similar but not identical to the tapped output transformer on tube amps. The big similarity is that as you increase the output impedance taps, voltage is increased but current is limited. This is fine to drive current into a high impedance load. However you need to optimize current and power demands in the power range. This is always below the transition range where are speaker transitions from half to full space radiator. This is the baffle step. So power delivery will be optimized by setting the auto transformers to match the impedance in the power range.

Now it is a given that less power is required where impedance is high. It is always low impedance areas in the power range you have to optimize for.

This system is nowhere near as good a good output stage that can deliver lots of current into a low impedance load. A good direct coupled output stage bests this auto transformer system any day, particularly driving loads with widely varying impedance and phase angles.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

Ok. Right now with everything calibrated to 82 db I have to bring the volume up to -20 or so, sometimes higher so bringing everything down to 75db I'll have to turn my speakers down more to get to 75db. I think I'm going to put all my speakers at 0 and see what SPL level reading I'm getting. This Shouldn't be hard lol. My mains are 101 my center is 98 and surrounds are 97db. All very efficient shouldn't have to be much adjusting. I will definitely re-do leveling with my meter not YPAO

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

So you are on the right track then with 0. I would try that 75 dB levels or even trying a test disc to see if you get the same results. See what level the volume control is when you listen to music or watch movies that are comfortable for you.

What test disc do you recommend ?