Your thoughts-> Moving away from discrete-> Open room

[Roger Ewing]

I would go with B & W all the way over DEF tech. I would not use a B & W sub, they wimpy in the extreme. Get one from SVS, HSU or Rhythmic.

That was my initial thought, although still need to listen.

I have browsed through the Loudspeaker thread, and see very few references to B&W. Was a bit surprised. In a lot of cases, folks seem to think B&W is priced high and that you're paying for name. But then, those are opinions. Maybe opinions from folks not even listening to them.

On a Google search, I did some some glowing reviews of the bookshelves they are suggesting.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That was my initial thought, although still need to listen.

I have browsed through the Loudspeaker thread, and see very few references to B&W. Was a bit surprised. In a lot of cases, folks seem to think B&W is priced high and that you're paying for name. But then, those are opinions. Maybe opinions from folks not even listening to them.

On a Google search, I did some some glowing reviews of the bookshelves they are suggesting.

Well, there are all kinds of opinions from EVERYONE, myself included, that you may not even agree with after you listen for yourself.

They may offer hypotheses and justifications about why certain speakers are better. But in the end, they are just simply hypotheses & opinions.

I think some people bash B&W because they tend to have bad on-axis and off-axis frequency responses. Seriously, a lot of speakers that are much cheaper have better on-axis and off-axis than the $25,000 B&W 800D.

Some people bash DefTech and Golden-Ear simply because they think DefTech & Golden-Ear "lie" about their spec. For example, DefTech and Golden-Ear may say their speakers go down to 16Hz. But they don't say @ -3dB or -6dB or -9dB. In reality the 16Hz response may be @ -12dB or -15dB. So they "mislead" people with their spec.

Of course, just because one person (ANY person) vouch for a speaker doesn't mean you will agree after you have listened to the speakers for yourself.

 

[TLS Guy]

That was my initial thought, although still need to listen.

I have browsed through the Loudspeaker thread, and see very few references to B&W. Was a bit surprised. In a lot of cases, folks seem to think B&W is priced high and that you're paying for name. But then, those are opinions. Maybe opinions from folks not even listening to them.

On a Google search, I did some some glowing reviews of the bookshelves they are suggesting.

I think if you get a good sub or two you will be very pleased. I personally like the sound of the B & W CM series and think that is one of their best series.

I have auditioned a number of Def Tech speakers, and I have to say honestly, they are on my really awful list, but you may like them I suppose.

 

[Roger Ewing]

...Of course, just because one person (ANY person) vouch for a speaker doesn't mean you will agree after you have listened to the speakers for yourself.

That's for sure...

 

[herbu]

At this point my wife is amicable to bookshelf type in front, but not tall floor standing speakers.

CONGRATULATIONS!!! You have now opened the door to a lot of good choices. Now, how do you plan to mount the bookshelf speakers? On stands? On a table? On the wall?

 

[Roger Ewing]

CONGRATULATIONS!!! You have now opened the door to a lot of good choices. Now, how do you plan to mount the bookshelf speakers? On stands? On a table? On the wall?

Thinking of setting them on the BDI Cabinet, each end, center. Putting them on stands leans more toward having something as large as tall speakers. I'm pleased that the wife can go for the book ends...don't want to push it ;-).

Another local integrator stopped by tonight and is going to put a proposal together. He did see the challenges of the environment, and felt the best way to go is going to be the on-wall DefTechs. One interesting thing he did think would be helpful for this environment is to go with an Anthem unit. Said it is the 'the best' for equalizing for the environment. I'm starting some research on that now.

But I have to say, I would miss the features of my TX-NR 818 Onkyo. But, may be worth it if it actually makes a noticible difference in adopting the sound for my environment.

 

[Roger Ewing]

I think if you get a good sub or two you will be very pleased. I personally like the sound of the B & W CM series and think that is one of their best series.

I have auditioned a number of Def Tech speakers, and I have to say honestly, they are on my really awful list, but you may like them I suppose.

I went to the integrator providing the 2 different options, and definitely, the B&W are much better. Surprisingly, less than $200 difference between the DefTech and the B&W.

I may seek out an audition on Episode. I have read a several very positive reviews. But of course, one of the comments is "...very good sound at a lower price point...", sort of like saying, "Sounds great for what you are paying", which may be good, but in the end still not great.

I have read several times that you can get as good a sound as B&W for less $...that a fair portion of the price tag is 'for the name'. They certainly are very noticeably better sounding than the DefTech Mythos 60s.

 

[TLS Guy]

I went to the integrator providing the 2 different options, and definitely, the B&W are much better. Surprisingly, less than $200 difference between the DefTech and the B&W.

I may seek out an audition on Episode. I have read a several very positive reviews. But of course, one of the comments is "...very good sound at a lower price point...", sort of like saying, "Sounds great for what you are paying", which may be good, but in the end still not great.

I have read several times that you can get as good a sound as B&W for less $...that a fair portion of the price tag is 'for the name'. They certainly are very noticeably better sounding than the DefTech Mythos 60s.

You have a good ear my friend. You easily picked out the more accurate and pleasing speaker. Obviously you need to try and set up the best system you can with the constraints you have.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You have a good ear my friend. You easily picked out the more accurate and pleasing speaker. Obviously you need to try and set up the best system you can with the constraints you have.

Wait. How do you define "more accurate" and "more pleasing"?

The Infinity P363 (and probably Pioneer & EMP budget towers) has better on-axis and off-axis measurement than the B&W 800 Diamond.

Are the on-axis and off-axis measurement not a significant factor in determining accuracy?

And isn't "more pleasing" purely subjective and personal, not some scientific fact?

There are probably as many people who find Def Tech speakers more "pleasing" as there are people who find B&W speakers more "pleasing".

 

[Roger Ewing]

The above post makes me think about specs: I'm thinking that because specs are better does not necessarily mean it will sound better, I presume. (Of course as noted in post above, what one person likes another won't).

At any rate, I have yet to listen to them, but the Episode 700 sesries bookshelf speaker has better specs than the B&W, I believe. The reviews I've found on the Episodes are quite positive. I'm not confident they will sound as good (to me) as the B&Ws, but I hope to fine a place to listen to them and see. They definitely would save some $.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The above post makes me think about specs: I'm thinking that because specs are better does not necessarily mean it will sound better, I presume. (Of course as noted in post above, what one person likes another won't).

At any rate, I have yet to listen to them, but the Episode 700 sesries bookshelf speaker has better specs than the B&W, I believe. The reviews I've found on the Episodes are quite positive. I'm not confident they will sound as good (to me) as the B&Ws, but I hope to fine a place to listen to them and see. They definitely would save some $.

Try not to add bias before you even hear them.

If you assume the B&W sounds better based on some opinions, than the B&W will probably end up sounding better subjectively.

Just tell yourself it is a fair fight and any speaker could win.

 

[Roger Ewing]

Try not to add bias before you even hear them.

If you assume the B&W sounds better based on some opinions, than the B&W will probably end up sounding better subjectively.

Just tell yourself it is a fair fight and any speaker could win.

Sure. Makes sense. I actually expect the Episode to sound pretty good based on the several very positive reviews. I'll see how it goes.

 

[Roger Ewing]

One of my other bids came in. Said he can get me B&W if I want (I have sent him the list of B&W that the other offered), and he is going to get me his prices for those. The dealer that was offering the B&W said Episodes were low end speakers and pretty much poo pooed them, but said they could get them. On one side of the coin I could envision them pushing the B&W for more profit, and on the other, they could be dead on. But the reviews on Episodes have been quite good, at least the ones I've found.

The guy offering the Episodes said that the Episodes are very reasonably priced speakers, yet provide an excellent sound. That is similar to what i've been reading on them. I still need to listen to them though. That is where this person has a drawback. He came to me by a reference; has been in the business for 25 years, but not as a store front...works by reference only. As such he is priced more reasonable. (It was actually a HT store that had no interest in quoting to me because I didn't want everything, ie all components, etc. They said he was very good, and would be more reasonable 'for my needs').

Anyway, I need to see if I can find a shop with the speakers to listen to.

The L/C/R fronts he recommended are all the Episode es-700-lcr-5 speakers. The surrounds recommended were es-700-ic-8s, and the sub was the ES-SUB-EVO12-300-BLK.

The quest continues for now...

 

[Roger Ewing]

Just to update. I am going with Episode ES-700-LCR-5 for L/C/Rs; ES-EVO-SUB-12-300 sub woofer; ES-700-IC-8s for the rears.

Yesterday, I ran back and forth to audition the Episodes, and the B&Ws. In both cases, I only was able to audition L/C/Rs and Subs. with music (

same music on each). If found it interesting that while these were showroom shops, in neither case (for music they provided) did they use CDs. Used streaming. I had a CD with me to use.

The first time I listened to the Episodes, I thought they were heavy on the bass. (I commonly saw reviews from folks surprised at how much bass they Episodes have, even w/o sub). I will say that the B&Ws sounded better (no surprise to anyone, I suspect). The B&Ws had a wider separation in the showroom than the Episodes, so I definitely noticed the stereo effects with that separation.

I went back over to the store for the Episodes, and a different person was there, who seemed more invested. The original person had opened boxes, pulled them out and hooked them up and played. This guy checked the settings on the player and noticed that bass was set strong (I had not said anything yet about bass until after he had checked and made that statement). They definitely sounded better.

In the end, the question for me was B&W worth $2500 more. I decided they weren't worth that much of a premium, for me. I'm not an audiophile...just want decent sounding system, and I think this will be good for me. Fingers crossed. To be installed next Tuesday.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yeah, if the B&W (or any other speakers) don't sound significantly better, then they are not worth the money.

 

[Roger Ewing]

The Episodes have been installed. I have to say, I am very pleased. They definitely sound better (even with my room requirements) than the NHT setup I had at my previous home. Of course, they are a lot more speaker anyway, as my NHT's in front were Super Zeros.

Music sounds good, and the room sounds full with a good 5.1 movie. Dialog is very understandable.

Of course, I don't chase down all the technical details like some of the 'audiophiles' do here. But the important thing for me, I am very happy with them.

 

[Reorx]

Congratulations on your new speakers.
Thanks for taking the time and writing here.

Questions:
Did your in-ceiling speakers get installed with back boxes?
Where did they install the in-ceiling speakers? directly above your couch?
Did the installer make any suggestions or recommendations for acoustical treatments?
What did you end up using for your AVR?

Most importantly, how does your wife like them?

Happy listening.

 

[Roger Ewing]

Expand the quote below. Answers in blue.

[QUOE="Reorx, post: 1067820, member: 9134"]Congratulations on your new speakers.
Thanks for taking the time and writing here.

Questions:
Did your in-ceiling speakers get installed with back boxes?

No, they did not. We did discuss that. All 3 of the installers that quoted said that for rear speakers, boxes really weren't needed; that most of surround rear is 'effects' (ie. ricochet, planes fly over, etc). They said if I was using front in-ceiling that it would be important to put them in boxes, but like all the input above, did not recommend ceilings for front.

Where did they install the in-ceiling speakers? directly above your couch?

Not directly above, just slightly behind. The Episode ES-700-IC-8 speakers have aimable tweeters, and =/- treble and bass settings. I don't think any changes were made to the bass/treble.

Did the installer make any suggestions or recommendations for acoustical treatments?

Based on this not being a theater room, not much could be made that we'd do. We already have a 8X10 throw rug on the wood floor in front of the couches and chairs. They had suggested that of course the more furniture, etc, that we had in here the better it may dampen any reflective issues.

That being said, my wife actually suggested that if it may help, she interests from a design standpoint of having some standing doors behind the couch facing the TV (likely antiquish doors)...effectively (maybe?) making it more of a small room from the standpoint of the TV and speakers. Frankly, I am very happy with how they sound, and not thinking that at all necessary. Not sure if it would be a good idea or not.

What did you end up using for your AVR?

Onkyo TX-NR818. Also put ES-AW-6 Outdoor speakers on our lanai (zone2), and smaller speakers just for 'background music' in the living room (zone 3). I will say I'm not as impressed with the sound of the ES-AW-6 speakers as the rest of them.

Most importantly, how does your wife like them?

The wife thinks they sound great, and is OK with how they look, although the L and R (same as the center, ES-700-LCR-5) are larger than she had been thinking we would end up with. Had been talking about bookshelf speakers. These are larger than bookshelfs, but smaller than tower.

Happy listening.[/QUOTE]


I'm definitely going to enjoy. This is sounding better than the NHT setup I had at the home we moved from.