Your thoughts-> Moving away from discrete-> Open room

[Roger Ewing]

Sorry for the long post below. I suspect it'll be more than some want to read. NOTE: I had links to all the speakers I'm referencing, but because this is my first post, no can do.

I am moving soon, and plan to tip my hat to WAF, which means no on-wall or free standing speakers.
Have been doing quite a bit of reading and discovered this site. Interest in your thoughts.

First, here is the room. The blue narrow box at front represents a Samsung 75" 6350 TV:



You will notice that I will be sitting almost 15' away from the screen. Other bits of info:

• You will notice it is open from gathering room through breakfast area and kitchen. Room sizes noted
• The house has a 12' ceiling
• Hardwood floors
• There will be a floor rug about 10'X8', covering area in front of all seating in the gathering room
• The two square boxes on each side of the couch in front of the windows represent end tables
• I look for good music sound as well as good separation and surround effects for movies. Although, I do not consider myself an audiophile by any means.

I am concerned about how the attempt at sound surround will work in the open area, wood floors (albeit some rug as noted).

I plan to get competetive quotes for systems, possibly letting them offer what they think best for the room. Plan to have them do a house visit.

That being said, I want to have some thoughts in mind. I have spoken with one Home Theater shop down there, to two different people. The first time, we talked about 30 mintues, and I had a diagram per the drawing above. He was suggesting the possibility of Episode 700 series speakers, front and back, in-ceiling. The research I've done on them seems to point to them being a good system.

I stopped in later with my wife for a very short visit, mainly to show her a Salamander Designs cabinet. While there, I spoke briefly with a different gentleman, and he asked if we had ever heard the Sonos Play Bar, which I hadn't heard any sound bars. He took us into the demo room and played something, and we were surprised about how good it did sound. The Sonos sub and the Play Bar was all that was in the short demo. All this being said, I'm not thinking too seriously about the Sonos, but am considering going to a soundbar for front, and in-ceilings for rear, and a sub.

Goldenear

I've read a lot of good things about Goldenear. So I'm considering the GE SuperCinema 3D Array X vs. SuperCinema 3D Array XL. Both can be seen here. The X lists for ~1000, and the XL for ~1600. The only difference in specs is 49 1/8" wide for the X, and 62 1/8" wide for the XL; and the XL has 2 more center speakers. I'm not sure if that is worth another $600. I presume the sales pitch in particular would be the wider XL offers better separation. My question would be are they worth another $600.

Episode

I've been considering these Episode 700 series in-ceiling speakers for the rear surrounds. The woofers and tweeters both have +- 3db adjustments. I was thinking that the speakers were aimable too, but now I don't see that in the literature.

The one gentleman was suggesting, I believe, Episodes up front and rear. But I'm thinking the Soundbar may be fine for front.

Definitive Technology

I notice that the Definitive Technology UIW RSS II is aimable. Maybe I should consider these. In fact, at the same list price, they have more speakers, and a broader frequency range than the Episodes (although I'm sure that speaker count doesn't necessarily mean anything). I think the Def Tech should also be on my short list for in-ceiling speakers. In fact, I do find them less expensive out there than I've found Episodes. If better to go with all in-ceiling is the best way to go, using all Def Techs may be feasible for me.


Concerns

The 12' ceiling leaves me wondering how well in-ceilings will work. I will say that due to the 12' ceiling,and my reading that fronts are more important to be at or at least near ear level, contributes to my thinking I should use a soundbar for the front.

The other concern I have is tht they may take a look in the attic and tell me they can't wire to the speakers. There is a LOT of blown insulation in that attic, and I expect it will make wiring difficult.

If you've gotten this far in the post, wow...many thanks.

Looking forward to your thoughts.

 

[TLS Guy]

That room layout is just lousy for HT. You are far better off doing HT in a dedicated room, such as a basement space. In that space I would just go 2.1 or 3.1 as a secondary system.

And another thing, make up your mind whether you want a useless fashion statement or something to be truly enjoyed.

Interior designers are largely idiots. The best and most elegant solutions are when form follows function and not function following form. Good interior designers know that at their core.

A good system makes a design statement in its own right. In many ways the more in your face, the better the aesthetics.

In other words the antithesis of WAF looks best.

 

[Alex2507]

I am moving soon, and plan to tip my hat to WAF, which means no on-wall or free standing speakers.

When you move, do you have to take your wife?

 

[herbu]

no on-wall or free standing speakers...Interest in your thoughts.

In this room, with this layout, a great HT is but a dream.

 

[TLS Guy]

When you move, do you have to take your wife?

I can tell you one thing, if he ever builds that system with in ceiling speakers he will wish he had left her behind!

In all seriousness though, that Ewing chap needs to understand that you can not build an HT system with in ceiling speakers, no matter what the "glossies" say.

 

[Roger Ewing]

I can tell you one thing, if he ever builds that system with in ceiling speakers he will wish he had left her behind!

In all seriousness though, that Ewing chap needs to understand that you can not build an HT system with in ceiling speakers, no matter what the "glossies" say.

This Ewing Chap understands all that. Not very helpful reply. I've been living with a dedicated HT with projector to a smaller (92") Firehawk screen since 2005, with 7.1 setup.

I am going to have what I have in the new house and need to live with it. There will be no basement. This is in Florida, and very few basement homes in this area. I'm hoping for some constructive suggestions on how to make the best of what I have. I'm not planning on working with Interior Designers, but Home Theater professionals. Of course, I suspect most 'audioholics' haven't experienced what I am trying to do, and so have no real idea how to help. Criticism of what I have definitely is of no value.

 

[TLS Guy]

This Ewing Chap understands all that. Not very helpful reply. I've been living with a dedicated HT with projector to a smaller (92") Firehawk screen since 2005, with 7.1 setup.

I am going to have what I have in the new house and need to live with it. There will be no basement. This is in Florida, and very few basement homes in this area. I'm hoping for some constructive suggestions on how to make the best of what I have. I'm not planning on working with Interior Designers, but Home Theater professionals. Of course, I suspect most 'audioholics' haven't experienced what I am trying to do, and so have no real idea how to help. Criticism of what I have definitely is of no value.

The fact is we would not attempt to do what you are trying to do.

The reason: - We have been at it long enough to know we can't fight physics, but have to work with it.

So I will tell you up straight in ceiling speakers are a mess. With your huge volume to power and 12' ceilings any in ceiling system will be a total waste of time effort and money. Unless you are the most cloth eared individual on the planet, you will hate it and regret it, and so will everyone else.

If you are not that fussy about sound, then get a good sound bar with HDMI connectivity and a sub. If you don't want that, just use the speakers in the TV, that will be better than what you are contemplating.

We are just trying to stop you wasting time, effort and money and end up frustrated because you are up against physical laws that can not be broken.

The fact is the less you trespass physical laws the better the system and unfortunately for you the converse is true. There gets to a point were the trespasses are great enough it is a useless endeavor. I can assure you that you are well past that point.

 

[zieglj01]

I am moving soon, and plan to tip my hat to WAF, which means no on-wall or free standing speakers.
Have been doing quite a bit of reading and discovered this site. Interest in your thoughts.

What about speakers that are made to give you an option to fit in with the decoration

One such option here from HTD -and they do make nice stuff
The Versa HTS1 speaker
http://www.htd.com/Products/Versa-Cabinet-Speakers/VERSA-HTS1

You can change the sock
http://www.htd.com/Products/Versa-Cabinet-Speakers/Versa-HTS1-Sock

And, you can change the end-caps
http://www.htd.com/Products/Versa-Cabinet-Speakers/Versa-HTS1-End-Caps

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If I did in-ceiling, I'd go with something like the RBH VM-815L Home Theater C/L/R speakers with 8" woofers and sensitivity of 90dB/2.83V/m.

Then I'd get the RBH SI-10 in-wall subwoofers.

http://rbhsound.com/vm815l.php

http://rbhsound.com/si10.php

When it comes to this hobby, what really matters is how it sounds to YOU. In-wall fronts and In-ceiling surrounds can sound very good to many people as long as you also use subwoofers (even in-wall or in-floor subwoofers).

If I bought a new custom house, my family room would have all RBH in-wall speakers and subwoofers for sure.

But my PRIVATE man-cave HT room would have free-standing speakers.

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

In-ceiling can work for the back speakers, but as you and others have noted, the 12-ft. ceiling is a problem. What about in-wall speakers instead, located to the left above the doorway, and to the right where the green area is?
What really concerns me is the front soundstage. Surely you aren’t planning in-ceiling up there? If so I totally agree with TLS, it will not get good results. For starters, with the 12-ft ceilings there will be no distinction between the center and L/R speakers. In-wall would be better. The right speaker would be closer to the listening position than the left, but the time-alignment feature AVRs have these days can take care of that.
All in all, things would be better if re-arranged things from one of the side walls instead...
Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[Roger Ewing]

If I did in-ceiling, I'd go with something like the RBH VM-815L Home Theater C/L/R speakers with 8" woofers and sensitivity of 90dB/2.83V/m.

Then I'd get the RBH SI-10 in-wall subwoofers.

http://rbhsound.com/vm815l.php

http://rbhsound.com/si10.php ...

Thanks for the constructive suggestions. I'll check them out...

In-ceiling can work for the back speakers, but as you and others have noted, the 12-ft. ceiling is a problem. What about in-wall speakers instead, located to the left above the doorway, and to the right where the green area is?

That's a good idea. I was thinking in-wall wouldn't work because on the left side I was considering lower, at left of door...which wouldn't work because the wall would likely be all 2X4s. But over the door, and then of course wall across...up higher could work. Seems to me I would need speakers that could be aimed down. No?

[Update] ->Oh...but...there are transoms in the wall on left. See photo below. I guess that's a no-go.

What really concerns me is the front soundstage. Surely you aren’t planning in-ceiling up there? ...

No, I'm not. I think that maybe, unless I misunderstood him (quite possible) the first person at the HT shop pushing Episodes may have been thinking that. But I've decided not to do that. Maybe soundbar for front...maybe in-wall can work. However, the 75" TV will take up a lot of that wall space. Given that the fronts should be at ear level, maybe the TV mounted a bit higher, and in-walls below. Although, looking at the mockup, I think maybe in-walls will work for L and R. Could possibly put the center below, or in the media cabinet that will be there.

FYI...here is a mock up of how the TV would fit on the wall:

 

[Roger Ewing]

This article by Sound and Vision on Episode in-ceiling speakers gives hope that maybe the in-ceilings, while not ideal, are still better than just using TV speakers as it ws suggested I might as well succumb to.

So still currently thinking of investigating in-wall for up front, and with failure of that, a quality sound bar. In-ceiling for front would be my last choice. Have read a lot of reviews of the Episode in-ceiling, and I am leaning pretty hard to that brand for the rears.

BTW...the price listed is a the beginning of the article is way off.

 

[TLS Guy]

This article by Sound and Vision on Episode in-ceiling speakers gives hope that maybe the in-ceilings, while not ideal, are still better than just using TV speakers as it ws suggested I might as well succumb to.

So still currently thinking of investigating in-wall for up front, and with failure of that, a quality sound bar. In-ceiling for front would be my last choice. Have read a lot of reviews of the Episode in-ceiling, and I am leaning pretty hard to that brand for the rears.

BTW...the price listed is a the beginning of the article is way off.

The sound bar is your easiest solution. You don't have a lot of wall space for in wall fronts.

A custom solution could conceivably work. I suspect there is just enough room for custom corner speakers, and then an in or on wall center.

If push came to shove and I had to, I would see if corner built on speakers with 4" drivers and down firing port could give good results.

If there is room on those corners, speakers designed around four of these a side, with matching center might do the trick very well.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

This article by Sound and Vision on Episode in-ceiling speakers gives hope that maybe the in-ceilings, while not ideal, are still better than just using TV speakers as it ws suggested I might as well succumb to.

So still currently thinking of investigating in-wall for up front, and with failure of that, a quality sound bar. In-ceiling for front would be my last choice. Have read a lot of reviews of the Episode in-ceiling, and I am leaning pretty hard to that brand for the rears.

BTW...the price listed is a the beginning of the article is way off.

Best thing is to find some in-ceiling speakers and judge for yourself. If they sound good to you, that's the only thing that matters.

 

[Roger Ewing]

Best thing is to find some in-ceiling speakers and judge for yourself. If they sound good to you, that's the only thing that matters.

I agree, and hope to be successful in finding some to audition.

As noted by others here, a big concern is the layout I am having to live with, and the high ceilings. I'm sure I won't be able to audition for that specific environment. It would be nice to hear from someone who has tackled a similar challenge and see what they have to say. Not likely, as most folks entertaining this forum are purists and won't have that type of environment.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I agree, and hope to be successful in finding some to audition.

As noted by others here, a big concern is the layout I am having to live with, and the high ceilings. I'm sure I won't be able to audition for that specific environment. It would be nice to hear from someone who has tackled a similar challenge and see what they have to say. Not likely, as most folks entertaining this forum are purists and won't have that type of environment.

Some guys here are also custom installers. Perhaps one or two of them may drop in.

I've heard ceiling speakers in commercial places with 15' ceilings. There is no way they sound as good as great free-standing towers. But those ceiling speakers didn't sound any worse than sound-bars and the likes either.

 

[herbu]

most folks entertaining this forum are purists and won't have that type of environment.

Many people on this forum have a living room or den they adapted to accomodate HT. A few have dedicated rooms, but just a few. Most are like you. Look through the Pros and Joes section for pictures. The thing that sets you apart is the degree to which you're willing to intrude upon the room with speakers. Very few have zero tolerance for at least front speakers. That makes it tougher.

 

[Roger Ewing]

Many people on this forum have a living room or den they adapted to accomodate HT. A few have dedicated rooms, but just a few. Most are like you. Look through the Pros and Joes section for pictures. The thing that sets you apart is the degree to which you're willing to intrude upon the room with speakers. Very few have zero tolerance for at least front speakers. That makes it tougher.

herbu...makes sense.

My wife is ammicable to in-wall speakers...and I'm not in consideration of that angle. Will have to measure and see if they fit based on the wide TV.

The real will likely have to be in-ceiling.

 

[Roger Ewing]

I've had one integrator come by, and will have two others for a competitive bids/suggestions. Of course, they may offer different solutions. In the end, I will be auditioning the speakers offered...although my specific environment can't be duplicated. I may try to do in-house auditions.

At this point my wife is amicable to bookshelf type in front, but not tall floor standing speakers.

This integrator gave me two options for speakers solutions:

Definitive Technology

3 DEFI Mythos XTR-60 Definitive Technology Mythos XTR-60 Ultra-Slim LCR Speaker - Horizontal/Vertical (Each)
1 DEFI SuperCube 6000 "Definitive Technology SuperCube 6000 Subwoofer
1500 watt (each)"
2 DEFI UIW RCS III "Definitive Technology UIW RCS III Reference
Ceiling​

L/C/R (Each)"

Bowers and Wildins

1 B&W CM5 S2 B&W CM5 S2 2-Way Bookshelf Speaker (Pair)
1 B&W CM Centre S2 B&W CM Centre S2 2-Way Center Speaker
2 B&W CCM7.5 "B&W 2 Way In Ceiling speaker system with nautilus
technology"
1 B&W ASW610XP "B&W 600 Series Active Subwoofer 200w + 200w
1​

0"" ICEPower (Each)"

He indicated that the B&W would definitely be the better sound. He is pricing it all at list price, and there really isn't too much difference in the overall cost.

One of the remaining two coming out is not a store based individual, but thrives on word of mouth. During initial contact, he said that there are solutions for most any environment, but he needs to come out and see what the environment is like. Will be interesting to see what the others say.

 

[TLS Guy]

I would go with B & W all the way over DEF tech. I would not use a B & W sub, they wimpy in the extreme. Get one from SVS, HSU or Rhythmic.