AV-Phile... here you go with another rant that detracts from your true charm and appeal. You said all of what you said to then ask the aforementioned question?\r\n\r\nYou are so consumed with the veracity of the 'horsepower'... so you can walk around braggadociously claiming that your horse is hung better than someone else is horse...and the reason you know yours is hung better is because your tape measure is more accurate than theirs?\r\n\r\nThat is exactly what this amounts to. I am shocked to see you let all of the steam out of another attempt at a compelling argument by floating such a rudimentary question. A classic blunder in Logic 101.\r\n\r\nYour rants on truth in adverstising have proven that you are more qualified to be an Internal Auditor then you all are to be an 'auditory' expert. };-) What is particularly amusing is the fact that your incessant monopoly on technical specifications is the only foundation upon which you have been able to attempt to build an argument--one that is seemingly to attack the viability of non-European audio\/video products.\r\n\r\nMoreover, I find it abundantly amusing that you have hemorrhged several thousand, carefully chosen, words into an effort to impeach the credibility and opinions of enthusiasts and experts alike--particularly those that are not aligned with your proclivity for numerical values vs. real world performance.\r\n\r\nHowever, I truly encourage you to never give up on your crusade. Without question, being that I am a person inclined to enjoying such dialogue, this has been abundantly amusing.\r\n\r\nBest,\r\n\r\nPharaoh\r\n\r\nI disagree, the logic of that statement proceeds with unassailable deductive path from my arguments.\r\n\r\nLet me just say that there is this thing called PRIDE of OWNERSHIP. Whether in cars, homes, wristwatches, clothes, whatever. It's a primal instinct of the human creature. From it proceeds acts of courage, but also acts of folly, often with tragic remuneration. \r\n\r\nPride of ownership spawns bragging rights. I do frown upon bragging and being a braggadocio. But in a polite civilized conversation, when someone asks me what's your amp's power, I say I have a 200 watt amplifier. Is that bragging? Maybe. But more importantly, is there any truth to what I am saying? That's the point of all my loquacity. \r\n\r\nThere would be truth if I were using a NAD, a Rotel or an HK or some other brand whose specs from which I based my declaration is truthful. But if, from the specs, the manufacturer duped me into thinking I have a 200wpc amp when all the while it is just a 100wpc amp, therein lies the problem. And if, in my naive estimation, I hold the manufacturer in high respect, any challenge questioning its product's 200wpc ability would let loose a barrage of defense with all the ferocity at my command. However misplaced. I can therefore understand the angst generated by my post. But I wouldn't have one were I in the other shoe. \r\n\r\nKnowing fully well that many in the membership are avid Yamaha receiver or amp users, I have thrown myself into a lion's den ,as it were, with open eyes. But it is precisely my trust in the sublimity of the human thought that my posts should attempt to bring these rational people beyond their precious comfort zones into a more discerning consciousness so that no one need be surprised that some of the promises in a product's spec can never be attained in real world listening. I agree, it probably doesn't matter at all. Specs are just a trifle sheet of paper. Nothing in it will ever tell you to what heights you can achieve sonic nirvana in this aurally hedonistic hobby. And I have no doubts, they already do with their yamaha gear. I am not questioning that, nor am i interested to do so. Is that hard to get?\r\n\r\nBut in the same way I look at a resume of the employment applicants with discerning interest, I look at a product's technical specs as an indicator and a start in evaluating it. Anything that doesn't interest me won't even merit a consideration for audition. Same with applicants. \r\n\r\nI probably should apologyze for smearing a nationality with my reference to Japanese amps. But I won't. Can I help it if, in looking at the amplifer specs of Yamaha, Pioneer, Denon, Onkyo, Kenwood, JVC, Sony, Aiwa, to mention some, most of whose power claims I find similarly suspect, a comon thread deductively emerges that betrays their country of origin? Perhaps there are European and American brands that likewise elicit some suspicision with their specs, but that is totally beside the point. I am not here to bash gears from one or the other country. I am merely pointing out the inadequacies of power measurement in amps so that consumers like you and others can KNOW just what you are getting, and not expect more than what they can really deliver. \r\n\r\nAnd yes, if i am more hung than you are, it is precisely because the tape measure we use do not tell a lie. But i'd be flusterred if you tell you are more hung based on numerical superiorty, if you used centimeters while I used inches. \r\n\r\nTo further illustrate my point, i often encounter questions from colleagues about why their NAD or HK that is rated at only 50wpc sounds louder and more full-bodied than their older Denon or Pioneer units rated at 75 or 80wpc. As well as questions in the reverse situation: why their new Onkyo whose spec indicated a 120wpc reciever didn't sound any louder than their older vintage HK reciever rated at only 50wpc. Or questions like "should I upgrade to a Rotel, but its power is only 40 wpc, whereas my older Yamaha has 70wpc? Needless to say, my explanations to them essayed the same gist as the posts I made here. \r\n\r\nAnd I do find it "abundantly amusing", if not entirely pathetic, that people who champion the truth behind audio are exactly the same people who would question my efforts at exposing unrealistic specs whose "proclivity with numbers vs real world performance" is precisely that - a proclivity that borders on incredibility. I am now a mad man ranting blind at something everyone already knows. Nothing new to contribute. \r\n\r\nWell, let me just say that if that were indeed the case, I feel sorry for a forum that is supposed to be interested in the truth about audio. Seems the arrival of something like the Z9 is treated with such overwhelming oohs and aahs that pointing out its obvious inadequacies that can never match the promise of its power specs must be treated with scorn and ridicule, like someone crying in the wilderness. Is this site sponsored by Yamaha? If so, I must have touched a raw nerve.\r\n\r\nAnd if someone here would tell me to just disregard the specs as they are worthless, and just listen and enjoy, I would have no problem with that. Afterall, if they can disregard the dubious claims of wonder cables, I can disregard the dubious claims of overstated amp specs. Right? I beg to differ. While you can disregard bogus cable claims, you can rightfully go back to your ZIP cords and enjoy. But in disregarding bogus power claims on receivers and amps, you would still use them. That would be like telling me to disregard the claims of Pure Note but still find enjoymentt in listening to their $1,500 cerullean RCA cables. Is this a case of double standards or what? \r\n\r\nSorry Pharoah, I just couldn't let this pass. But just to return the favor, I also find your erudite responses prodigously entertaining despite their superficial grasp of my persistent loquacity, bordering on the laughable. But do continue with your engaging posts. I also gain so much bemusement with your obvious delight at my trifling tenacity, which, while implicit, is exceedingly unmistakable.