Yamaha RX-V577 Networking A/V Receiver Review

[Goliath]

I believe I was pretty clear that the Yamaha drove the SVS, KEF, and Boston Acoustics speakers just fine. I don't believe that I intimated anywhere that the Yamaha had a problem driving any of the speakers I paired with it. In fact, I was pretty complementary to the unit's audio performance.

Sorry if I was unclear myself, but my recent reply to you was more concentrated on the Salons and your (presumably) sighted report of hearing large audible improvements jumping from a very capable power amp to a very, very capable power amp in reasonable conditions.

Unless the conditions were not reasonable, in which case I apologise in advance. Was the test sighted, how did you level-match, how did you switch between amplifiers and how many trials were involved, if any? Thanks.

 

[Goliath]

I don't recall saying they were. I gave the numbers, not a speech about how Revels are death to piddly AV receiver

Sorry for presuming that you did, after you posted the sensitivity figures and then said the speaker absolutely qualified as a 4 ohm load.

No offense, but the SPL you deem 'reasonable' is utterly irrelevant.

I agree, that is why I said we should define what 'reasonable' is so we can make the term relevant.

PS: Fun fact: if you read Gene's article that I linked, the "1000W" amplifier is actually FTC rated at 150W into 4 ohms.

Great, thanks I'll take a look at Gene's article.

 

[Steve81]

I agree, that is why I said we should define what 'reasonable' is so we can make the term relevant.

I'd daresay that it's not really feasible to do so. For some folks, it's not unreasonable to listen to music at true to life levels. OTOH, an apartment dweller might disagree with that assessment.

 

[RichB]

Fact is, the power demands are less severe than we think because of the crest factor of music which we know can be as high as 15-20 dB in some cases, often is above 10 dB, and no less than 6 dB in the most extreme of cases.

A crest factor of 10 DB is 10 x the power, the more dynamic the recording the greater the short term (frequency dependent) demand for power. This power is often below the 1kHz frequency.

Fact is, speakers are handling audio and not pure tones, so it's not like the heat sinks and transistors are being taxed to hell and back on a continual basis.

It is because of the crest factor of audio signals that amplifiers are not required to dish out loads and loads of power on a consistent basis. It strikes me as an unreasonable claim to suggest that the Salons would require so much juice under reasonable conditions, most of the time, to exceed 500 watts, so much so, that it takes 1000 watts to make the bass sound sweeter, or deeper, or more stronger.

At -6 relative to reference volume into a 29DB gain (whatever that means ), I illuminated the clipping indicator on the ATI3005 amp playing Sarah McLachlan Surfacing.
It is loud and for a short time, fun. I have measured the heat sinks of the Parasound A51 during such sessions at 125F for loud sessions and a peak of 156F.
Also, the power factor comes into play when driving loads with high phase angles. Some amps current limit to avoid overheating that will limit peaks.

I suppose it is a matter of taste. For example, I like to play Awolnation's Sail at seriously loud volume. It gets the heart pumping, woofers moving; Sound you can feel.

Someday, I'll bring the Yamaha A820 upstairs and test its thermal protection mode

- Rich

 

[Goliath]

A crest factor of 10 DB is 10 x the power, the more dynamic the recording the greater the short term (frequency dependent) demand for power. This power is often below the 1kHz frequency.

Yes. Power supplies are not being stressed a great majority of the time due to the wonderful crest factor of audio.

A nice fact of life is that amplifiers short term peaks are supplied by power from the power supply filter capacitors. These charge up during quiet passages and get partially drained during peaks. Which often last milliseconds. The worst case is when you do bench tests with steady sine waves which are like a peak that never ends!

Music is different. Music is like a big relief! ; - ) The most stressful signals that amplifiers face have the lowest possible crest factors.

Also, the power factor comes into play when driving loads with high phase angles. Some amps current limit to avoid overheating that will limit peaks.

The amps that current limit are rare. Most are voltage-limited, not current limited and driving difficult loads with high phase angles at high impedances are permissible. What isn't permissible are high phase angles at low impedances. That can potentially be a problem

 

[Irvrobinson]

I see no evidence that this speaker is abnormally difficult or complex to drive.

Agreed. Compared to my old Legacy Focus originals the Salon2s are a cinch to drive.

Let us take 83 dB 1W/1M. Sit 3 meters back. With 50 watts you are hitting 96 dB SPL. Let us subtract 6 dB, because we are trying to be conservative and assume 90 dB SPL. So with 50 watts, you are hitting 90 dB SPL. With 200 watts, you are hitting 96 dB peaks. I've subtracted 6 dB of overhead here, just to keep the figures really, really conservative. I assume the speakers are placed close to a boundary, and these figures assume zero reflectivity in the room, so the actual requirements will be less, once you factor in the ratio of direct to reflected energy within the room. Unless the listening room was an anechoic chamber. Then never mind.

Take out an SPL meter and listen at 82 dB SPL. It is actually pretty darn loud, in my opinion, at least as far as an average SPL goes.

I am going to retract my earlier claim of 82 dB as a reasonable SPL. I suspect many people at home would not listen to music on average at 82 dB or close to it.

Here we deviate. I've routinely measured 102db peaks at my listening seat on commercial contemporary jazz recordings. My own recordings of jazz and rock groups made in my home produce louder levels than that. For recordings of acoustic instruments made in very large spaces I agree that 82db is loud, but for even medium size spaces 82db is quite polite. A 7' piano in a living room is loud.

I guess we need to define what 'reasonable' is.

IMO, reasonable = the sound level of live acoustic instruments in a medium size venue. A jazz band in a nightclub that seats fifty people. A trumpet, a sax, or a full drum kit in a venue like that can be quite loud. I agree that Mozart in a concert hall seldom has average levels above 80db at one's listening seat, but there's more to music than that. Our upright piano played in our music room is pretty darn loud too.

 

[Goliath]

For recordings of acoustic instruments made in very large spaces I agree that 82db is loud, but for even medium size spaces 82db is quite polite. A 7' piano in a living room is loud.

Even pink noise at 82 dB is just very loud. In fact, there is a reason why pink noise signals for calibration purposes are recorded at -30 dBFs, because people started to complain that the test tones at 85 dB were just too damn loud.

I can't listen to most music at 82 dB SPL on average. It's way too loud for me, not to mention my neighbors would complain. People should do themselves a favor - download an SPL app, one that has a peak hold function, and listen to music as loud as they normally do for long periods of time.

Let's see how many people listen at 80 dB SPL at the seat. I'm guessing, very few actually do. 70 dB SPL is often described as being as loud as a vacuum cleaner at close quarters and 80 dB is roughly double that perceived loudness!

 

[RichB]

What isn't permissible are high phase angles at low impedances. That can potentially be a problem

And when faced with a high-phase and low impedance, what does an amp with insufficient power supply do ?

- Rich

 

[Irvrobinson]

Even pink noise at 82 dB is just very loud. In fact, there is a reason why pink noise signals for calibration purposes are recorded at -30 dBFs, because people started to complain that the test tones at 85 dB were just too damn loud.

I can't listen to most music at 82 dB SPL on average. It's way too loud for me, not to mention my neighbors would complain. People should do themselves a favor - download an SPL app, one that has a peak hold function, and listen to music as loud as they normally do for long periods of time.

Let's see how many people listen at 80 dB SPL at the seat. I'm guessing, very few actually do. 70 dB SPL is often described as being as loud as a vacuum cleaner at close quarters and 80 dB is roughly double that perceived loudness!

I see where you're coming from, but pink noise isn't music, and I find a tolerable volume level depends on the size of the listening room. People who listen in 12x15x9 rooms are probably not going to find the same volume levels tolerable as someone listening in a space of over 5000 cubic feet. The acoustics of a small room just get overwhelmed, I think. I'm not as bad as Rich, I haven't clipped my AT3000, but I think it's perfectly conceivable that someone needs hundreds of watts of power.

Back to the Yamaha, I'm wondering if Theo wishes he had not made any comments about basic amps being better than AVRs.

 

[TheoN]

Sorry if I was unclear myself, but my recent reply to you was more concentrated on the Salons and your (presumably) sighted report of hearing large audible improvements jumping from a very capable power amp to a very, very capable power amp in reasonable conditions.

Unless the conditions were not reasonable, in which case I apologise in advance. Was the test sighted, how did you level-match, how did you switch between amplifiers and how many trials were involved, if any? Thanks.

Ok, in reference to the experience with that equipment setup:

1. The set of amps were not identified. Paul didn't know which was which. I did.
2. I had level matched with an SPL
3. I switched the balanced cables between the amps.
4. We did an entire evening of tests over several hours and switched between amps over several cycles and mixing up the order of the switching. It was a classic memory. We were enjoying things so much that Paul got into trouble with his wife for being so late.

I want to make sure I re-emphasize again one important item. As I mentioned in the review at that time, the differences noted were in the bass. You absolutely felt the difference when you switched on the M1000 MKII during the passages of certain tracks.

For example, I don't know what your particular setup is but I recommend playing "Journey to the Line" from the movie The Thin Red Line. This track is probably familiar even if you've never seen the film because it's been licensed for use in movie trailers and other things over the years.

This was one track where the differences between the M1000 MKII and the M500 MKII was most apparent. At about 4:15 into the piece, there are these subterranean smashes that come in. When you play this in a system with true, full range capabilities, it's a really, really awesome experience. When that part kicks in, you could immediately tell which was the M1000 MKII. The bottom end with the Salons and the M1000 MKII was amazing. That's not to say that the M500s or the Lexicon weren't good. The M1000 was just comparatively better. You heard and felt the difference in the bass.

The same was true when playing Sunshine, Adagio in D minor by John Murphy. Fast forward to about 2:17 and track has subterranean notes that kick into full swing at around 2:30. Once again, during that segment, the M1000's were addictive in how they handled the bass response.

In the review, I noted that as good as I felt the M1000s were with the bass, I felt that the better match with the Salon2s was the M500 due to another anomaly when the M1000s were paired with the Salon2s.

 

[TheoN]

Back to the Yamaha, I'm wondering is Theo wishes he had not made any comments about basic amps being better than AVRs.

Ha ha. Are you kidding? I don't mind at all. I love the fact that we're all passionate about our hobby. For me, however, at the end of the day it's really all about the music.

I don't believe I said that basic amps are better than AVRs. I made the observation that in my listening experience, I feel that more powerful amplifiers have done a better job in handling the bass region of full range speakers than AVRs.

By the way, the ATI AT3000 series is a sweet, sweet amplifier. Great choice.

Time to get back to the Yamaha and kick amp tangents over to that dedicated topical section in the forums.

 

[Goliath]

Well, someone out there gave me a negative reputation point, so I guess I shouldn't continue posting at this point. Oh well.

I had level matched with an SPL

Acoustic measurements are not sufficient for level matching. You need to measure the voltage across the speaker terminals. An SPL meter is not capable of this.

Other than that, we don't know how loud you were listening, but I digress. Sorry for putting you on trial, but I tend to be very skeptical of certain types of claims.

 

[Goliath]

And when faced with a high-phase and low impedance, what does an amp with insufficient power supply do ?

- Rich

If too much current is drawn, the power supply voltage decreases under load and .... bingo, the power amp is power supply voltage limited.

 

[Steve81]

Acoustic measurements are not sufficient for level matching. You need to measure the voltage across the speaker terminals. An SPL meter is not capable of this.

Other than that, we don't know how loud you were listening, but I digress. Sorry for putting you on trial, but I tend to be very skeptical of certain types of claims.

It's worth keeping in mind that these aren't scientific trials that we're publishing in the JAES. These are billed as nothing other than simple subjective listening tests. If you want to take them with a grain of salt, feel free. I certainly won't hold it against you. At this point though, the horse is dead. Move on.

 

[Goliath]

It's worth keeping in mind that these aren't scientific trials that we're publishing in the JAES. These are billed as nothing other than simple subjective listening tests. If you want to take them with a grain of salt, feel free. I certainly won't hold it against you. At this point though, the horse is dead. Move on.

Fair enough.

 

[rick451]

diff between a rx 575 and rx577

thats all i wish to know is the differance because i bought a 575 6 months ago to replace a Onko??

 

[TheoN]

Differences between RX-V577 and RX-V575

Hi Rick,

Because your question is a common one, Yamaha has setup this FAQ page outlining some of the differences between the RX-V575 and the RX-V577: RX-V577 Comparison to the RX-V575 - RX-V577 - RX-V - AV Receivers - Audio & Visual

 

[zapperravsolutions]

UPDATE to the Review:

It’s important to note that even though this unit says it supports UHD/4K pass-through, there’s was caveat during the time of writing this review at least. Our review sample of the RX-V577 could only pass UHD signals at a maximum of 30fps (frames per second). Supporting UHD signals up to 30fps has always been part of the HDMI 1.4 spec. For movies recorded at 24fps, this isn’t an issue. However, most broadcast signals in the USA are recorded and sent at 60fps and when UHD programming is available to the mainstream you won’t be able to support those signals with HDMI 1.4 passthrough. My point is that users shouldn’t be confused by the term “UHD/4K passthrough” and think that they are somehow future-proofed. That being said, Yamaha is supporting 4K Ultra HD 50Hz/60Hz 4:2:0 signals pass-through transmission with a firmware upgrade available on their website. So, all it will take is connecting up your after RX-V577 to the internet and initiating the update and you’re good to go.

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