Yamaha RX-V577 Networking A/V Receiver Review

[admin]

With digital media consumption skyrocketing, network-ready A/V receivers like the Yamaha RX-V577 are quickly becoming a central hub for accessing online and network-based audio and video content. With advanced networking features, HDMI UHD/4K passthrough at 30fps, built-in support for major music services, Yamaha's new A/V receiver aims to meet the challenge in this increasingly networked world. Will the Yamaha's RX-V577 receiver's features and performance meet your needs or come up short? Read our full review to find out.

Read the Yamaha RX-V577 review here. Is this receiver on anybody's shopping list?

 

[Goliath]

Thank you for the review. Just a question :

While music was thoroughly enjoyable, you can tell that this is really a receiver built for home theater and in particular multichannel audio.

Are you suggesting the receiver has a biased predisposition towards handling movie soundtracks over two-channel signals?

 

[TheoN]

Stereo vs. Multichannel

Hi Goliath,

You raise a great question and the sentence may not be clear. Let me elaborate.

I tested the Yamaha in 2-channel using SVS Ultra towers. These are full-range speakers and I played them in 2.0 configuration. The Yamaha did a respectable job with the towers but I definitely felt as though the amplification stage wasn't able to really grip and control the towers as I've heard with dedicated amplification.

When I switched to multichannel on the KEFs (crossed with a subwoofer) I felt as though the Yamaha did a much better job.

In other words, what I mean by the multichannel vs. two-channel comment is that in my listening experience over two months with the unit, I felt as though the Yamaha performed better when crossed with a sub (traditional multichannel) vs. paired with speakers run full range (traditional two channel).

In my personal listening experience this rule would be true across most receivers. They just don't have enough juice to power full range speakers.

If you have full range speakers and you want to run them full range in two-channel mode (leaving aside 2.1 configurations), I am of the opinion that external, dedicated amplification is the best way to go.

Thanks for raising that question and I hope that helps clarify things a bit!

Theo

 

[Goliath]

In my personal listening experience this rule would be true across most receivers. They just don't have enough juice to power full range speakers.

I understand and I hear this a lot on audio forums, but there never appears to be any evidence to suggest that this is actually true, except in extreme conditions that no reasonable person would subject themselves to.

When I ask someone why they think they need more power, do you know what type of answer I get? A blank stare and a long pause. ; - ) You get the usual "Well, I feel like the bass should be a tad bit stronger, or ... "something is just ... missing".

The real fun is when I ask how they reached their conclusions of inadequate power. The answer is usually ... a feeling, or ... someone said this ... or the salesman suggested that, or etc. There never appears to be any reliable evidence of the equipment lacking power in the first place.

People often buy power amps just because they can, or because someone else suggested that they buy one to improve the performance of their systems. How many people out there do you think listen loud enough to clip their receivers into gross audible distortion while listening to music in their homes?

 

[Irvrobinson]

I tested the Yamaha in 2-channel using SVS Ultra towers.

How large is your listening room? Do you know, roughly, the loudest peaks you achieved during your listening sessions?

Just as a superficial observation, the SVS speakers look like a pretty easy load for the Yamaha.

 

[Steve81]

How large is your listening room? Do you know, roughly, the loudest peaks you achieved during your listening sessions?

Just as a superficial observation, the SVS speakers look like a pretty easy load for the Yamaha.

FWIW, GranteedEV measured their impedance here:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/loudspeakers/85675-svs-ultra-tower-review-tarunvir-bains.html

The SVS Towers look to spend the 70Hz-500Hz band hovering in the 3-5 ohm range. Sensitivity is rated at 88dB w/ 2.83V, which is about average.

 

[Irvrobinson]

FWIW, GranteedEV measured their impedance here:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/loudspeakers/85675-svs-ultra-tower-review-tarunvir-bains.html

The SVS Towers look to spend the 70Hz-500Hz band hovering in the 3-5 ohm range. Sensitivity is rated at 88dB w/ 2.83V, which is about average.

Yeah, I've read that.

I have clipped my ATI AT602 into my Revels with some source material played rather loudly, though not unreasonably loudly. But I have a listening space with a lot of volume, and the Revels are less efficient by 3db or so than the SVS Towers, and they appear to have a somewhat lower impedance. If Theo has a very large room it's not outside the realm of possibility that the Yamaha's limits could be exceeded. I'm tending to side with Goliath's skepticism, but I'm also curious.

 

[RichB]

Yeah, I've read that.

I have clipped my ATI AT602 into my Revels with some source material played rather loudly, though not unreasonably loudly. But I have a listening space with a lot of volume, and the Revels are less efficient by 3db or so than the SVS Towers, and they appear to have a somewhat lower impedance. If Theo has a very large room it's not outside the realm of possibility that the Yamaha's limits could be exceeded. I'm tending to side with Goliath's skepticism, but I'm also curious.

My room is 4500 CF with openings.
I illuminated the clip indicators driving my Salon 1's with an ATI3005 and it was seriously loud.

The AVR's I have heard clip-well. By that, I mean they do not get overly harsh until really pushed into gross distortion.
Before gross-distortion, it seems reasonable that some of the peaks can be limited.
Some amps are designed with distortion (power) limiters.

It would nice if AVR's had clip indicators so folks would know when an amp is required but I guess that is bad for business.
One manufacturer would be seen as underpowered. It's a shame.
You would think that Emotiva would do it, since they would could use them to sell amps.

- Rich

 

[Irvrobinson]

My room is 4500 CF with openings.
I illuminated the clip indicators driving my Salon 1's with an ATI3005 and it was seriously loud.

Ha! Now that must have been damned loud!

 

[gene]

UPDATE to the Review:

It’s important to note that even though this unit says it supports UHD/4K pass-through, there’s was caveat during the time of writing this review at least. Our review sample of the RX-V577 could only pass UHD signals at a maximum of 30fps (frames per second). Supporting UHD signals up to 30fps has always been part of the HDMI 1.4 spec. For movies recorded at 24fps, this isn’t an issue. However, most broadcast signals in the USA are recorded and sent at 60fps and when UHD programming is available to the mainstream you won’t be able to support those signals with HDMI 1.4 passthrough. My point is that users shouldn’t be confused by the term “UHD/4K passthrough” and think that they are somehow future-proofed. That being said, Yamaha is supporting 4K Ultra HD 50Hz/60Hz 4:2:0 signals pass-through transmission with a firmware upgrade available on their website. So, all it will take is connecting up your after RX-V577 to the internet and initiating the update and you’re good to go.

 

[TheoN]

Update to the review

I'm sure everyone saw Gene's post about the firmware update (the firmware that enables 4k/UHD passthrough at 50/60Hz is 1.15 and you can grab it directly from this link. For European users, the firmware also adds the Juke streaming service. That's really huge for what you get for this model.

 

[TheoN]

I understand and I hear this a lot on audio forums, but there never appears to be any evidence to suggest that this is actually true, except in extreme conditions that no reasonable person would subject themselves to.

When I ask someone why they think they need more power, do you know what type of answer I get? A blank stare and a long pause. ; - ) You get the usual "Well, I feel like the bass should be a tad bit stronger, or ... "something is just ... missing".

The real fun is when I ask how they reached their conclusions of inadequate power. The answer is usually ... a feeling, or ... someone said this ... or the salesman suggested that, or etc. There never appears to be any reliable evidence of the equipment lacking power in the first place.

People often buy power amps just because they can, or because someone else suggested that they buy one to improve the performance of their systems. How many people out there do you think listen loud enough to clip their receivers into gross audible distortion while listening to music in their homes?

I want to highlight something I specifically noted in the review to make sure it wasn't missed: "For the overwhelming number of users looking at this receiver, the built-in amplification performance won’t be an issue and the Yamaha will serve you just fine. However, if you’ll be using the RX-V577 with some tougher to drive speakers or if you have a very large room, you may want to consider one of the higher-end models."

Even at reasonable listening levels with full range loudspeakers (emphasis again on full range speakers) in a large listening area like mine, I personally find that lots of good, clean power does indeed give more headroom, a better bass experience, dynamics, and less prone to distortion at higher SPLs, etc. I'll let Gene chime in too here, but my recollection is that he has the same experience with his Emotiva XPR-1 monoblocks vs. other amps of lesser amplification at the same baseline SPL.

When we did the Red Dragon amp review, I switched out the two amps (500w into 4 ohms and 1000w into 8 ohms) and you could absolutely tell the difference in the bass between the two amps with the Revel Ultima2 Salon setup. In the real world, those Ultima2s just love being given lots of power to perform their best. Level matched between the two models, bass with the 1000w 4ohm Red Dragon monoblock amp model was incredible—far better dynamics and impact than with the 500w 4ohm (which itself was no slouch). I did that listening session with a friend of mine who's also an engineer and neither of us are quick to buy into snake oil stuff. That's why we're all audioholics, right?

 

[TheoN]

How large is your listening room? Do you know, roughly, the loudest peaks you achieved during your listening sessions?

Just as a superficial observation, the SVS speakers look like a pretty easy load for the Yamaha.

I certainly don't feel that the Yamaha had trouble handling the load of the SVS towers at any reasonable listening levels. I have an open floor plan that measures roughly 20' x 30'. My listening area is going to be quite a bit larger than many.

Post-calibration, I did some SPL level checks using AudioTools, which mimics the look of the good old Radio Shack, and has a memory for peak SPL levels hit. When testing some louder listening sessions, I had max peaks in the low 90's. If I recall correctly, I was somewhere around 92-94 dB or so. I didn't do SPL measurements during every single listening session .

Those who want to focus on a dedicated discussion on differences between amps may want to check out Gene's article here and join in on the thread following the article.

 

[Goliath]

As another point on this issue, when we did the Red Dragon amp review, I switched out the two amps (500w into 4 ohms and 1000w into 8 ohms) and you could absolutely tell the difference in the bass between the two amps with the Revel Ultima2 Salons. Level matched between the two models, bass with the 1000w Red Dragon monoblock amp model was incredible—far better dynamics and impacts than with the 500w (which was no slouch)

How did you level match? How was the switching done? Was the testing done sighted? How many trials?

At reasonably loud listening levels, let's say 82 dB, those Ultima Salons will still be drawing fractions of a watt on average. Unless your room is the size of a gymnasium and you are sitting 7-10 meters back more or less...

Speakers can't generally taste, sense or touch the extra power that an amplifier can potentially supply. The only thing a speaker can sense at any given point in time is the voltage applied across its terminals. Thanks to Ohms Law, no power amp is physically capable of supplying more current than is required at a given voltage.

Thanks to the physical laws of our universe, no power amp, no matter the size, weight or price can supply more current than any other amplifier below its own rated power. You can compare a receiver to McIntosh 2KW (2000 watt) monoblocks, at reasonable SPL levels where the power demands are typically low, the McIntosh ain't going to supply more current than the AVR. No way, no how.

1. If you apply a voltage, the load impedance draws a current up until the limit the amplifier can physically supply
2. If you apply a lower voltage, the load impedance draws a current up until the limit the amplifier can physically supply, albeit at a lower level

So if the volume levels are reasonable, the voltage demands will also be reasonable and the current demands will also be reasonable. So .... how do we go from a 500 watt amplifier sounding pretty good to a 1000 watt amplifier sounding "OMG" at reasonable levels, where the voltage and current demands won't require anything .... anywhere close to 500 watts?

Here is another piece of the proverbial pie. If the speaker could sound better at 1000 watts rather than at 500 watts, and the speaker could 'see', hence sense, hence detect the extreme voltages applied across its own terminals, then you would be experiencing permanent hearing damage in a matter of seconds. Not minutes, but seconds.

But we already established that reasonable output is reasonable output, and reasonable probably isn't extreme, because extreme is extreme. I think.

So, although I'm disputing your claim, please don't take this the wrong way, or think I'm purposefully trying to give you a hard time, but I need you to explain how it is physically possible for a speaker, like the Salons, to physically require 500 watts+ at reasonable levels, so much so, that you exceeded the limits of the 500 watt amp, because the 1000 watt amplifier made it sound so much better.

If you did not experience this difference under reasonable conditions, then I do apologise for my ranting, but I'm trying to wrap my head around a speaker that can respond with better verve, or dynamic impact, or better bass response in conditions that require very low power.

So I'll ask again : How did you level match? How was the switching done? Was the testing done sighted? How many trials?

 

[Steve81]

Just to be clarify a few things:
1. The Revel Ultima Salon 2's are 86dB sensitive w/ 2.83V @1m and absolutely qualify as 4 ohm nominal speakers, meaning 86dB is achieved with 2W of input.

2. The Red Dragon amps in question are rated at 500W into 4 ohms and 1100W into 4 ohms respectively. They're also built on B&O's ICEpower modules, which aren't exactly known for being super conservative in their ratings.

Attack of the Clone Amplifiers | Audioholics

If you run 83dB w/ 1W and 500W through an SPL calculator at 12 feet, you get 101.7dB, which on the face of things is quite loud. Add a couple more dB for this being in room for good measure and call it 105dB. Pretty loud, right? Unfortunately, the link suggests that 500W is closer to being the power available for short term transients vs long term sustained power available on tap. Is 105dB super loud for transient peaks? Not in my opinion, though your mileage may vary.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I certainly don't feel that the Yamaha had trouble handling the load of the SVS towers at any reasonable listening levels. I have an open floor plan that measures roughly 20' x 30'. My listening area is going to be quite a bit larger than many.

Post-calibration, I did some SPL level checks using AudioTools, which mimics the look of the good old Radio Shack, and has a memory for peak SPL levels hit. When testing some louder listening sessions, I had max peaks in the low 90's. If I recall correctly, I was somewhere around 92-94 dB or so. I didn't do SPL measurements during every single listening session .

Those who want to focus on a dedicated discussion on differences between amps may want to check out Gene's article here and join in on the thread following the article.

20x30 is a rather large area, especially if you have high ceilings of any sort, so I wouldn't rule out substantial power, more than the Yamaha might be able to provide, being necessary for some recordings. 94db isn't especially impressive, but if that's measured at your listening seat, and that seat is 15' or more from the speakers it could imply 100db+ levels at one meter. In other words, I suspect you might have pushed the Yamaha close to its limits on peaks. Maybe.

As an aside, I hadn't read the Red Dragon review and I found it quite interesting, since I run a pair of Salon2s as my main speakers, connected in full-range mode. The Salon2s not only can sink a lot of power (by my own measurements at the speaker terminals), and they perform best in a large venue away from walls and with wide spacing, which exacerbates the power consumption issue. On the other hand, few people are likely to pair speakers like the Salon2s with the Yamaha, and I tend to think that it's probably as powerful as it needs to be with the speakers that it's likely to be used with. Frankly, if my main speakers were the SVS Towers I would be unlikely to pair them with a $500 AVR in a 20x30 room too.

(ADTG, don't faint at my defense of a $500 AVR. I am not an alien stand-in for Irvrobinson.)

 

[Goliath]

If you run 83dB w/ 1W and 500W through an SPL calculator at 12 feet, you get 101.7dB, which on the face of things is quite loud. Add a couple more dB for this being in room for good measure and call it 105dB. Pretty loud, right? Unfortunately, the link suggests that 500W is closer to being the power available for short term transients vs long term sustained power available on tap. Is 105dB super loud for transient peaks? Not in my opinion, though your mileage may vary.

My estimate of the Revel Ultima Salon2's voltage sensitivity was 86dB(B)/2.83V/m. This is slightly lower than the specified 86.4dB but within experimental error of that figure. The speaker's impedance (fig.1) drops to between 3 and 5 ohms between 17Hz and 600Hz, but as the electrical phase angle is generally low in this region, the Salon2 should not be hard for the partnering amplifier to drive.

I see no evidence that this speaker is abnormally difficult or complex to drive.

Let us take 83 dB 1W/1M. Sit 3 meters back. With 50 watts you are hitting 96 dB SPL. Let us subtract 6 dB, because we are trying to be conservative and assume 90 dB SPL. So with 50 watts, you are hitting 90 dB SPL. With 200 watts, you are hitting 96 dB peaks. I've subtracted 6 dB of overhead here, just to keep the figures really, really conservative.

I assume the speakers are placed close to a boundary, and these figures assume zero reflectivity in the room, so the actual requirements will be less, once you factor in the ratio of direct to reflected energy within the room. Unless the listening room was an anechoic chamber. Then never mind.

Take out an SPL meter and listen at 82 dB SPL. It is actually pretty darn loud, in my opinion, at least as far as an average SPL goes.

I am going to retract my earlier claim of 82 dB as a reasonable SPL. I suspect many people at home would not listen to music on average at 82 dB or close to it.

I guess we need to define what 'reasonable' is.

I consider 65-70 dB to be a more reasonable average SPL with peaks 10-15 dB higher with well recorded music, but I occasionally listen at 75 dB, for peaks of 90 dB with well recorded music. I see no evidence that an amplifier as capable as the Red Dragon would run out of steam at these reasonable levels, at a 3-4 meter seated distance.

I never (ever) see any evidence that this is happening. What I do see is a lot of rhetoric, plenty of it, but as far as anything conclusive goes, nothing ...

Fact is, the power demands are less severe than we think because of the crest factor of music which we know can be as high as 15-20 dB in some cases, often is above 10 dB, and no less than 6 dB in the most extreme of cases.

Fact is, speakers are handling audio and not pure tones, so it's not like the heat sinks and transistors are being taxed to hell and back on a continual basis.

It is because of the crest factor of audio signals that amplifiers are not required to dish out loads and loads of power on a consistent basis. It strikes me as an unreasonable claim to suggest that the Salons would require so much juice under reasonable conditions, most of the time, to exceed 500 watts, so much so, that it takes 1000 watts to make the bass sound sweeter, or deeper, or more stronger.

Did the bass sound stronger most of the time, regardless of output, or only some of the time, well I guess we'll never know, but it surely sounded like the bass was "OMG, so much better", according to a casual sighted report.

 

[TheoN]

20x30 is a rather large area, especially if you have high ceilings of any sort, so I wouldn't rule out substantial power, more than the Yamaha might be able to provide, being necessary for some recordings. 94db isn't especially impressive, but if that's measured at your listening seat, and that seat is 15' or more from the speakers it could imply 100db+ levels at one meter. In other words, I suspect you might have pushed the Yamaha close to its limits on peaks. Maybe.

As an aside, I hadn't read the Red Dragon review and I found it quite interesting, since I run a pair of Salon2s as my main speakers, connected in full-range mode. The Salon2s not only can sink a lot of power (by my own measurements at the speaker terminals), and they perform best in a large venue away from walls and with wide spacing, which exacerbates the power consumption issue. On the other hand, few people are likely to pair speakers like the Salon2s with the Yamaha, and I tend to think that it's probably as powerful as it needs to be with the speakers that it's likely to be used with. Frankly, if my main speakers were the SVS Towers I would be unlikely to pair them with a $500 AVR in a 20x30 room too.

(ADTG, don't faint at my defense of a $500 AVR. I am not an alien stand-in for Irvrobinson.)

The Salons are simply gorgeous speakers. You must be enjoying them tremendously.

In the review setting, I took the Yamaha into two different rooms with the SVS towers to test the effects of the YPAO in different room contexts to see how it performed. For space considerations, I didn't go into all those details in the review. That also afforded me the opportunity to test the Yamaha in different locations for WiFi and Ethernet.

Yes, +/-94 db was measured at the listening seat in setup 2. Setup 1 was about 8 feet away and setup 2 was about 14.5 feet away and the speakers were set about 3+ feet away from the walls in each room. I also have acoustic treatments on the wall behind the speakers. I did most of the listening in setup 2, which is my normal listening area.

For that Salon 2 setup in the Red Dragon review, it was pretty similar to what you describe in your setup. The speakers were set about 3 feet from the rear wall in a slightly larger room.

I personally don't feel that the Yamaha would be able to be able to control the Salons in a way to make them perform the way they are capable of and I think that the Salons would bring the Yamaha to its knees. Why? For example, when we tested out the Salons during the Red Dragon review, we actually tripped one of the Lexicon's channels into thermal protection mode. Sometimes its interesting to see one thing on paper and a completely different thing to see it happen in the real world. We never, ever tripped the Red Dragons no matter how hard we pushed them. On paper, the Lexicon was stable into a 2ohm load and was one beefy amplifier, based on a Crown design. Yet, that's the one we tripped. Go figure.

Like I said in the review, I think that the Yamaha is designed just fine for its target price point and for it's intended speaker pairings.

 

[Steve81]

I see no evidence that this speaker is abnormally difficult or complex to drive.

I don't recall saying they were. I gave the numbers, not a speech about how Revels are death to piddly AV receivers.

I guess we need to define what 'reasonable' is.

No offense, but the SPL you deem 'reasonable' is utterly irrelevant.

PS: Fun fact: if you read Gene's article that I linked, the "1000W" amplifier is actually FTC rated at 150W into 4 ohms.

 

[TheoN]

I see no evidence that this speaker is abnormally difficult or complex to drive.

Let us take 83 dB 1W/1M. Sit 3 meters back. With 50 watts you are hitting 96 dB SPL. Let us subtract 6 dB, because we are trying to be conservative and assume 90 dB SPL. So with 50 watts, you are hitting 90 dB SPL. With 200 watts, you are hitting 96 dB peaks. I've subtracted 6 dB of overhead here, just to keep the figures really, really conservative.

I assume the speakers are placed close to a boundary, and these figures assume zero reflectivity in the room, so the actual requirements will be less, once you factor in the ratio of direct to reflected energy within the room. Unless the listening room was an anechoic chamber. Then never mind.

Take out an SPL meter and listen at 82 dB SPL. It is actually pretty darn loud, in my opinion, at least as far as an average SPL goes.

I am going to retract my earlier claim of 82 dB as a reasonable SPL. I suspect many people at home would not listen to music on average at 82 dB or close to it.

I guess we need to define what 'reasonable' is.

I consider 65-70 dB to be a more reasonable average SPL with peaks 10-15 dB higher with well recorded music, but I occasionally listen at 75 dB, for peaks of 90 dB with well recorded music. I see no evidence that an amplifier as capable as the Red Dragon would run out of steam at these reasonable levels, at a 3-4 meter seated distance.

I never (ever) see any evidence that this is happening. What I do see is a lot of rhetoric, plenty of it, but as far as anything conclusive goes, nothing ...

Fact is, the power demands are less severe than we think because of the crest factor of music which we know can be as high as 15-20 dB in some cases, often is above 10 dB, and no less than 6 dB in the most extreme of cases.

Fact is, speakers are handling audio and not pure tones, so it's not like the heat sinks and transistors are being taxed to hell and back on a continual basis.

It is because of the crest factor of audio signals that amplifiers are not required to dish out loads and loads of power on a consistent basis. It strikes me as an unreasonable claim to suggest that the Salons would require so much juice under reasonable conditions, most of the time, to exceed 500 watts, so much so, that it takes 1000 watts to make the bass sound sweeter, or deeper, or more stronger.

Did the bass sound stronger most of the time, regardless of output, or only some of the time, well I guess we'll never know, but it surely sounded like the bass was "OMG, so much better", according to a casual sighted report.

I believe I was pretty clear that the Yamaha drove the SVS, KEF, and Boston Acoustics speakers just fine. I don't believe that I intimated anywhere that the Yamaha had a problem driving any of the speakers I paired with it. In fact, I was pretty complementary to the unit's audio performance.