Yamaha RX-V1800 and weak bass in 2-channel stereo mode

[JDawg]

Ok I think I have some good news. I tried adjusting the equalizer and then I moved around the room to see if I could find a spot where the bass response sounded better. It seems when I sat on the floor a few feet away from my TV I could actually hear more bass. Then I tried moving the speakers closer to my normal listening position and I found that if I got off my couch and on the floor it sounded better. But there doesn't appear to be a good way to position the speakers to get the best sound from my normal listening position. So it would probably be easier to get the sub balanced with my main speakers and let the sub handle all the bass. My living room and kitchen are one big room and the kitchen also opens up into a hallway so I don't know if that's affecting how everything sounds. I'll try experimenting with my sub later this weekend when i have time.

 

[bandphan]

See if this calculater helps

 

[Lordoftherings]

Just couple questions.

Or can you see inside your receiver if there could be a problem?

Check in here: http://www.areadvd.de/hardware/2008/Yamaha_RX-V1800_01.shtml
>>> There are five pages.


* You previoulsy owned the Onkyo TX-SR805, why did you trade it?
And did you say that the bass from your speakers, using the Onkyo TX-SR805, was fine before?

Bob

 

[JDawg]

Thanks for that link but I don't think I need to open it up...and that website wasn't in English either so I can't understand it.

There was nothing wrong with my Onkyo when I sold it. I just wanted a receiver with HDMI connections and I was curious to see how the new HD audio from blu-ray and HD-DVD sounded. The Onkyo had 7.1 analog inputs so I could've bought a player with analog outputs but at the time blu-ray players were really expensive and I rather have a new receiver instead for just a bit more money With music I'm pretty sure I had more bass with the Onkyo but it's not that huge of a difference from what I have now...but it was noticeable. Even with movies I think I had deeper bass from my sub with the Onkyo. So maybe there's just a slight difference in sound between the two receivers.

 

[Seth=L]

You must not have had the TX-SR805, because the TX-SR805 has HDMI connections, and audio support.

 

[JDawg]

I had the TX-NR805. I mentioned this somewhere on the first page so I think lordoftherings just made a mistake and assumed I had the TX-SR805.

 

[Lordoftherings]

I had the TX-NR805. I mentioned this somewhere on the first page so I think lordoftherings just made a mistake and assumed I had the TX-SR805.

I did read TX-NR805, but I don't recall that model from Onkyo.
Which year?

* Oh and by the way, when I ask you to look inside your receiver, it was just a way to introduce you to that link with great internal pictures of your receiver, that's all. I didn't mean at all that there could be a problem inside.
I'm sure your Yamaha 1800 receiver is fine, but you are right that there are some differences in the bass between different receivers from different manufacturers.
My previous Yamaha receiver (RX-V2092) had much better bass control and punch than my Denon AVR-3805. And I did noticed that right away, the first few minutes.

 

[no. 5]

My living room and kitchen are one big room and the kitchen also opens up into a hallway so I don't know if that's affecting how everything sounds.

Everything effects what you here to some degree; room shape, wall construction, room dimensions, listener location, speaker location, etc...
The room Mode calculator that Bandphan linked to is a useful and easy start to finding what is going on acoustically in your room, but as any such calculator can't know all the relevant information about your room, measurements made at the listening position will tell you the most about what you're hearing, then with that information, a fix could be made.

How far are your main speakers from the wall? If they are a few feet from the wall, there is a possibility that moving them closer to the wall will increase bass response. I say 'possibility' because it really depends on the specific acoustics of your room if it will work or not. Or if you're tired of messing with them and just want to use the sub, we can help with that too.

 

[Lordoftherings]

Sorry to be off topic here, but no. 5 could you please tell me what your avatar represents?
I just quite cannot make it. Thanks.

Bob

 

[no. 5]

Sorry to be off topic here, but no. 5 could you please tell me what your avatar represents?
I just quite cannot make it. Thanks.

Bob

Not a problem! It's a promotional photo taken at a concert by this guy, I like the picture and his music, so I thought it would make a nice avatar.

 

[Seth=L]

jDawg, does the receiver have HDMI at all? Does it have an ethernet port for NetTune? When did you buy it? If you have a picture of it that might help. I don't believe such a receiver existed in the US (I could be wrong). The "NR" in TX-NR*** indicates it's a network capable receiver. I've followed Onkyo's production lines and model number sequences for quite some time and I can't logic how a TX-NR805 fit in anywhere in the US production units.

 

[JDawg]

Oops I made a mistake in the model of the Onkyo I had. It was actually TX-NR801. Sorry for the confusion. I don't know why I was thinking 805.

Anyways I think I'm going to try setting up the sub to get better bass instead. I don't think i'll ever get good bass response out of my tower speakers with the room i'm in. So what I did was I moved my sofa out of the way and moved my sub there. I started crawling around on the floor and I think I found a few spots that are good. One spot is a few feet a way from my normal listening position at the wall to my left. Bass here seemed to be louder than most parts of the room. The next best location I think is right between my TV and right front speaker. Its not quite as loud there but it still sounds really good and maybe a little less boomy. Another good spot was along the right wall near my door but unfortunately that wouldn't be a good spot to put it simply because it wouldn't look right there and because the door is also there. So I'm going to experiment with the two spots I found and see how it sounds with movies and music.

 

[PENG]

Yes that's exactly what i'm experiencing. When its set to large with the bass going to the front speakers only I don't get much bass. If set to small i get lots coming from the sub. So what do you think the problem is?

As 3 dB suggested you should select "pure direct" mode to eliminate any mistakes in your sound processing settings.

Now if you still hear no difference, then you should check the connections between each of your front speakers from one end to the other and make sure the + (red) at the speakers are connected to the +(red) at the receiver and the - (black) at the speakers are connected to the -(black) at the receiver. If the two speakers are not in phase, the bass produced by the speakers will be weakened due to cancellation effects between the two speakers. How much cancellation effect you get will depend on your room acoustic characteristics and speaker locations.

 

[Lordoftherings]

Not a problem! It's a promotional photo taken at a concert by this guy, I like the picture and his music, so I thought it would make a nice avatar.

Thank you, now I can see the picture, great.

 

[Lordoftherings]

Oops I made a mistake in the model of the Onkyo I had. It was actually TX-NR801. Sorry for the confusion. I don't know why I was thinking 805.

I knew something was fishy. Thanks for the final model number.

As 3 dB suggested you should select "pure direct" mode to eliminate any mistakes in your sound processing settings.

+1 I'm in "pure direct" agreement.

 

[PENG]

+1 I'm in "pure direct" agreement.

I knew you would be in agreement. Just a couple more points:

- I am too lazy to read the RX-V1800 manual, but it is important to make sure that in pure direct (or whatever Yamaha call it), the subwoofer is in fact silent, otherwise the low bass outputs of the tower and the sub may also cancel each others. This is just in case if there is an selectable option to have the sub also on even in pure direct. Obvious he can just turn the thing right off just to be sure.

- Even if the polarities of all connections are correct, there is still a remote possibility that the internal connections of the Yamaha, or one of the speakers were installed incorrectly. I remember one, and only one of the many reviews (I read too many) I read, the reviewer claimed he found such reversed polority mistake. I don't remember whether he found the mistake in the receiver or one of the speakers. Again, I would think such possibility is extremely remote, but is possible.

I am focussing on the low frequency cancellation between speakers scenario because based on the way JDawg described his problem, I feel that it is the most probable root cause. Such cancellation effect is not as noticeable in the mid bass and up range due to their shorter wavelengths but it should be highly noticeable in terms of poor stereo imaging to the point you won't get a stable center stage. I know I am stating the obvious that most everyone knows very well but I am concerned sometimes people still overlook the most basic things.

 

[JDawg]

I have already tried direct mode and it didn't make any difference. I did turn my sub off and switched the LFE/bass settings between the Front and sub setting and I did notice more bass from the speakers when it was set to front speakers only.

I also double checked all the wiring last night and everything looked good. Even if something was reversed I think YPAO will detect it.

Its been so long since I heard how my old Onkyo sounded with music and although I wasn't getting tons of bass with the Onkyo I believe it was still a bit more than what I'm getting now. Of course that could be from the way two receivers sound and maybe the Yamaha is a little weaker in bass.

I used both my Onkyo and Yamaha for movies 95% of the time and both sound great. I wasn't too concerned with how it sounded with music until now because I mostly used my computer for music. So maybe its possible that maybe my JBL speakers just aren't capable of putting out good bass? Even if low frequency cancellation was the problem shouldn't I still hear lots more bass just by moving up closer to the speakers or another spot in the room? I already experimented with this and I do notice depending on where I am in the room I do get more bass but it still feels like its lacking a bit depending on the music.

I also spent all day yesterday experimenting with my sub and different locations and I believe I found a good spot for it. It seems to sound better with the crossover at 60Hz and it seems to blend it with the main speakers pretty good I think. I think I'm happy with the way music sounds with the sub right now.

Just for fun I made a frequency response graph using an audio test dvd I got from another forum and my Radio Shack meter. I'm not sure if I did it right but I basically just played the test tones and recorded what the meter measured. I played test tones from 25Hz to 120Hz. Anything below 30Hz is very low and my meter doesn't go low enough to detect it. This was done using just the two front speakers with the sub off and my LFE/bass setting set to front speakers only.

 

[PENG]

I also double checked all the wiring last night and everything looked good. Even if something was reversed I think YPAO will detect it.

That's true, it should, but I am not 100% sure it would in all cases. You may want to try plotting the graph for each speaker individually using the same channel (left or right) each time and see how it compares with having both speakers on. The graph you posted does indicate weak bass, as the SPL at 50 Hz is approx. 15 dB below that at 100 Hz. I would think a 55 lb speaker with dual 10" woofers should do much better. Have you considered contacting JBL tech support?

I have never plotted the FR for my front L/R but I am going to do it shortly. I did manage to get a relatively flat curve for my PC Ultra from 20 to 80 Hz.

 

[JDawg]

I also assumed a speaker with dual 10" woofers would do better. I bought close to 10 years ago when I was just a student and I couldn't afford anything better at the time. I suppose I could contact JBL tech support but my guess is I'm going to get more help from people on these forums.

I plotted another graph of my left and right speakers and it still seems to start dipping around the 50Hz mark. The graph of each speaker appears to be be not as smooth as with both speakers on. I'm actually starting to wonder if its just the speakers and maybe a new set of full range speakers would be better.

I did another graph with both speakers on again using the same volume level as when I did the left and right speakers. I couldn't remember what volume I had it the first time I did it so I did it again just to make things easier to compare. Either way it still looks like there's not much bass below 50Hz.

 

[PENG]

I'm actually starting to wonder if its just the speakers and maybe a new set of full range speakers would be better.

I hate to give up but I am also beginning to wonder if you are right. I just finished plotting mine. They did much better in the lower frequencies and they only have 2X6.5" woofers. Well, I did pay over 3K for the pair so I guess sometimes you do get what you pay for.