Yamaha RX-V1800 and weak bass in 2-channel stereo mode

[JDawg]

I'm not sure if this is a problem or not but I recently just started using my home theater for listening to music as well. I noticed in 2 channel mode I'm not getting much bass while listening to music. I set the LFE/bass output to the front speakers only but I'm not hearing a lot of bass from my tower speakers. If I set it so that the bass comes from my sub only then I get lots of bass. I'm thinking that I should be getting more bass from my front speakers. Are there any other owners of this receiver that can confirm if they also experience the same thing?

 

[Seth=L]

I have no idea why a pair of speakers would (or why you believe they would) have more bass than a subwoofer, since a subwoofer is designed to output bass only. I own the model up from your receiver and I was fiddling with those settings today. What was your previous arrangement before putting the RX-V1800 into the system, what are your speakers and subwoofer make/models?

 

[JDawg]

Welll I wasn't thinking that my tower speakers would have more bass than my sub but I thought there should still be a good amount of bass coming from them. I'm using JBL speakers and a SVS 20-39PC sub. I've had this setup for about a year and a half now but I used it for movies 99% of the time. I didn't notice this problem until I decided to listen to some music and experiment with the speaker settings. But before I had the yamaha I was using an Onkyo TX-NR805 receiver with the same speakers i have now.

 

[Lordoftherings]

Bass in a 2-channel stereo only system.

If your main speakers are full range with good bass, why not used them Full range then? That's what I do with mine, as I don't like how my subs sound with them.

But for movies, Ya baby, the subs all the way.

* Also, I sould mention that properly adjusting and balancing a subwoofer for serious 2-channel listening audio mode is easily said than done. It takes a lot of fine tuning, and even then, not all subs can be properly balance with two front main loudspeakers for music only in 2-channel stereo with perfect integration.
For movies, again, it is a totally different ball game. Usually, you just balance the levels, and add a couple dbs or so, and you're basically all set.

** Try the parametric EQ of your Yamaha RX-V1800 to adjust the lowest frequencies available from it. Is the lowest one about 30hz or so?
It is indeed a fine balancing act to integrate a sub with your two front loudspeakers in a 2-channel only system. More often than not, you need the perfect sub to do the job right, and even then, you need to still fine tune the low frequency peaks and dips, not an easy job.
I usually found that with certain type of music it is easier, like Jazz and Blues.
But I still never get satisfied, so for 2-channel stereo listening, I run my two front mains Full range (clean to 30hz, with useable extension to 22hz).
The lowest bass note in music is from the piano (27hz), if you don't count the organ with it's huge pipes giving you 16hz lows, and some special effects from certain CDs with 5hz lows.
And the acoustic bass low is 42hz.
So, if your two front loudspeakers can produce the lowest note from a piano, I'll say to run them full range.
I know, I know, some people are going to add a bunch of additional points here, but I still stick with my guns.

* The only deviation from this would be to have a very good digital Sub-EQ with very precise filters.

That's my personal opinion.

Cheers,

Bob

 

[JDawg]

I just checked the model of my speakers and I'm using JBL ND310ii Northridge speakers. I got them a long time ago but reviews for them at the time seemed good. The specs for the frequency response is 37Hz to 20KHz but I but I don't know how accurate those numbers are. But you're right about getting the sub balanced with the two main speakers. Some music sounded great and others sounded not as good. So I figured why not just use the main speakers only? Of course after trying that I didn't hear much bass if any at all. I'm not sure if its because my speakers are garbage and its time for an upgrade or if its just something I'm doing wrong. I also tried hooking up a pair of bookshelf speakers but I didn't get much bass from them either. I wasn't expecting much though since the were smaller speakers. I think I'm going to try experimenting with the equalizer settings tomorrow to see if that helps at all.

 

[Lordoftherings]

Fine-tuning the sub: Takes time & dedication.

If your sub can get to 25hz or so, try to balance it with your front mains.
But like I already said, for music 2-channel stereo only, it is a little more touchy to properly balance, but you can certainly come up with the best compromise. It's surely worth trying in your case.

And for movies, again, it is much less important, as you probably already know.

Good luck,

Bob

* Note: My best advice is that you take your time, use a Radio Shack analog level meter, and even try different subwoofer positions. Be patient (it might take few days to get the right balance where you are satisfy). It's all about experimenting, fine tuning and patience.
Also, on your subwoofer, try different position(s) from the Phase switch of knob. You want tight and loud bass, for the best Phase position.
But positioning your subwoofer at the right place is the most important aspect for best integration with your two front main loudspeakers.
And don't forget to set the Low Pass Filter on the back of your Sub at the "Bypass" position, or to it's Maximum position if the "Bypass" is not available. Plus set the X-over from your Yamaha receiver at somewhere around 60hz or so (you'll have to experiment with various x-over choices).
Also, if your sub has a High Pass Filter, set it to it's lowest position.
Furthermore, set the gain (volume level knob) on the back of your subwoofer at about 1/3 of it's rotary knob position. And adjust the final volume level from the subwoofer channel level of your Yamaha receiver (use your Radio Shack level meter to help you out).

** Tip: Put the subwoofer at your listening position, put a CD with good bass content, and crawl on your knees around the room for the best low integration possible. What you're looking for is tight bass, with good clarity, punch and resolution. The Radio Shack level meter will help you to get in the right ball park. You also need a test disc with the proper test signals, like Avia audio & video test DVD from Ovation software, or Video Essentials DVD or Blu-Ray audio/video test disc.

*** As you can see, it is a delicate balancing act.
--> Check here at Audioholics on some articles for Subwoofer positioning and Integration with the Main loudspeakers. And also visit the web site of "Secrets of Home Theater and high Fidelity" for more excellent articles on this subject.

**** I'm still fine tuning my subs after over 20 years.
But then, I am a very patient man.

 

[3db]

I'm not sure if this is a problem or not but I recently just started using my home theater for listening to music as well. I noticed in 2 channel mode I'm not getting much bass while listening to music. I set the LFE/bass output to the front speakers only but I'm not hearing a lot of bass from my tower speakers. If I set it so that the bass comes from my sub only then I get lots of bass. I'm thinking that I should be getting more bass from my front speakers. Are there any other owners of this receiver that can confirm if they also experience the same thing?

Are you using stereo mode when listening to two channel? I suspect the weak bass may be the result of YPAO. Just for fun try hitting the blue light (direct mode) on the right hand side for pure direct without the processing engaged and let me know how it works.

 

[Lordoftherings]

^ This guy (3db) might just have the right ticket.

Yes, but that will automatically set his front main loudspeakers to Full Range.

... And that will exactly restore the bass properly too... Hmm...

And me, on my two very long previous posts (that took over couple hours), I was trying to help him balance his subwoofer with his front mains.

So much for not reading properly.

Anyway, now he has the two best solutions (great bass with or without a subwoofer, plus a few good tips too as a Bonus.).

Thanks 3db for being more alert than me on this one.

Bob

 

[no. 5]

I set the LFE/bass output to the front speakers only but I'm not hearing a lot of bass from my tower speakers. If I set it so that the bass comes from my sub only then I get lots of bass.

Does this describe what you are experiencing:

Front speakers set to large = insufficient bass.

Front speakers set to small = enough bass.

If so, I may have an idea what is wrong.

 

[GlocksRock]

I notice the exact same thing with my RX-V1800, but I get more bass from the front speakers when I put the music enhancer mode on, and I have bass/lfe out set to both and crossover @ 80hz front speakers set to larger.

 

[JDawg]

Does this describe what you are experiencing:

Front speakers set to large = insufficient bass.

Front speakers set to small = enough bass.

If so, I may have an idea what is wrong.

Yes that's exactly what i'm experiencing. When its set to large with the bass going to the front speakers only I don't get much bass. If set to small i get lots coming from the sub. So what do you think the problem is?

I will also try 3db's suggestion about using direct pure mode later tonight to see if that helps.

And thanks to lordoftherings too for taking the time to help me out because I know you spent quite a bit of time with your two long posts. If in the end I don't solve this problem then I suppose I'll just have to do my best to get my sub to sound good with my two main speakers.

 

[Lordoftherings]

Or just get another receiver.


Just kidding.

 

[lsiberian]

Your speakers are rated down to 37hz, but that doesn't mean they sound good down their. I suggest a 70hz crossover at least.

Set your speakers to small. Don't even try to get the low stuff out of them.

 

[no. 5]

So what do you think the problem is?

I think it's an acoustic issue. In room low frequency response is determined by which room modes are being energized (by a speaker or subwoofer) and then of those, which are active at the listening position. I think that the main speakers are not all energizing the same modes (or at least not to the same extent) as the subwoofer.

With the main speaker set to large and pink noise, or bassy music playing, walk about in the room, if there are locations where there is enough bass, the problem is likely an acoustic issue.

 

[3db]

I think it's an acoustic issue. In room low frequency response is determined by which room modes are being energized (by a speaker or subwoofer) and then of those, which are active at the listening position. I think that the main speakers are not all energizing the same modes (or at least not to the same extent) as the subwoofer.

With the main speaker set to large and pink noise, or bassy music playing, walk about in the room, if there are locations where the is enough bass, the problem is likely an acoustic issue.

This could be but I got the impression that he didn't see this problem with the Onkyo..unless of course he swithced rooms or speaker location/layout. I think its the settings that he's using Going direct mode will confirm either way if its room mode or just his settings.

 

[Lordoftherings]

Your speakers are rated down to 37hz, but that doesn't mean they sound good down their. I suggest a 70hz crossover at least.

Set your speakers to small. Don't even try to get the low stuff out of them.

I'll say 80hz would be right on the target.

* And I also think that 3db on the above post, is right.

 

[JDawg]

I tried using direct mode and it didn't make any difference. I think I'm just going to set the speakers to small and let the sub handle the bass. I have the crossover at 80Hz but now I just have to experiment to find the best settings to get my sub to sound good with most of the music I listen to. It seems with some music it sounds good and on others there's too much bass or its too boomy...not really sure how to describe it. I'm going to try finding the best spot to put my sub but there's only so places I can put it without it looking out of place. Thanks again to everyone for trying to help figure this out. Maybe its not even a problem at all and its just the way this receiver is.

 

[Seth=L]

I haven't noticed any difference between the RX-V3800 and the B&K/Niles setup I had. I serioulsy doubt there could be such a huge difference unless there is some setting that has just been completely overlooked. Since you tried the direct mode you have eliminated the auto calibration and other tonal adjustments out of the running for possible causes of this lack of bass you are experiencing. Are your speakers in the same exact location as they where when you had the TX-SR805 set up? Did you run the auto calibration on the Onkyo, or ever use it's Pure Direct mode with those same speakers in the same arrangement? Did you run the bass "hot" on the Onkyo?

 

[Lordoftherings]

One step at a time (Slowly but Surely).

I tried using direct mode and it didn't make any difference. I think I'm just going to set the speakers to small and let the sub handle the bass. I have the crossover at 80Hz but now I just have to experiment to find the best settings to get my sub to sound good with most of the music I listen to. It seems with some music it sounds good and on others there's too much bass or its too boomy...not really sure how to describe it. I'm going to try finding the best spot to put my sub but there's only so places I can put it without it looking out of place. Thanks again to everyone for trying to help figure this out. Maybe its not even a problem at all and its just the way this receiver is.

That's exactly what I was explaining earlier. Just use those two earlier posts as some sort of a base to get things in the ball park, and read about subwoofer proper adjustment and positioning too.
Again (from your sub back panel):

* Sub Level: At 1/3 position (or up to 1/2).
* Phase: Check (listen for the most amount of bass).
* Low Pass Fiter: "Bypass" or MAX position.
* High Pass Filter: (if avail) MIN position.

Your receiver, I'm sure is fine, no system is perfect, and everyone has to adjust and fine tune with their own resources that are made available at their disposition. It's all about experimentation, learn from your mistakes (trials & errors).

Regards,

Bob

 

[3db]

I tried using direct mode and it didn't make any difference. I think I'm just going to set the speakers to small and let the sub handle the bass. I have the crossover at 80Hz but now I just have to experiment to find the best settings to get my sub to sound good with most of the music I listen to. It seems with some music it sounds good and on others there's too much bass or its too boomy...not really sure how to describe it. I'm going to try finding the best spot to put my sub but there's only so places I can put it without it looking out of place. Thanks again to everyone for trying to help figure this out. Maybe its not even a problem at all and its just the way this receiver is.

You now eliminated the receiver as a source of your problem. I have teh exact same receiver driving a pair of PSB T45s in full range direct when listening to two channel music and there is no shortage of bass on good recordings. Jdawg, its not the receiver

The next on the list is room modes which no.5 eluded too. The location of your speakers with respect to your sitting position maybe at a null point. Trying moving the spekaers if you can, closer, further away from your listening psotion to see if that helps. It sounds like a room mode problem.