Yamaha RX-A860 AVENTAGE 7.2 Atmos/DTS:X A/V Receiver Review

[PENG]

The 860 doesn't compare with Marantz SR5009 which put out 72.9 watts with 5 channels driven and 68.5 watts with the 7 channels driven at 0.1% distortion, from a review by Sound & Vision. I would think that the SR5010 and the SR5011 would bring similar results as I'm inclined to assume that they have the same amp modules.

With regard to the pre-outs voltage, I didn't see it mentioned in the owner's manual for my SR5010. I wrote to the D+M Group inquiring about it. Their customer service department replied with a vague answer:
"It varies between around 1.5 to 2v each device varies so in this case gains need to be properly adjusted on the external amp. So we do not have it as a set number."

I didn't know that they were using different devices for the preamps in the same receiver.
What a weird answer!

That's why I mentioned it would be great if they specify something like:

1v into 500 ohm
1.5v into 1k ohm
2v into 2k ohm
5v maximum into 4k ohm,

Something like that, but then they are going to say "no way, that would be too complicated and people will be confused".

 

[gene]

Low preamp-out voltage and meagre all channel power performance. That's why I prefer the D & M products.
I think Yamaha should rather concentrate on motorcycles, their first marketed products!

Yamaha has and still does make some excellent home theater products and AV receivers. This receiver has some performance issues but their top of the line model likely does NOT.

 

[gene]

It would be nice if we know the load impedance in Gene's Pre out test. The Yamaha may do better with a power amp that has very high input impedance.

The AP terminates into a high impedance (50k if I remember correctly).

 

[gene]

It looks like Yamaha skimped on this model trying to cram too much into at the expense of a robust power supply and good pre-amp stage. Thats unfortunate as their top 3 AVRs in their line up are nice and robust. I find it strange that people still get hung up on the ACD test not realizing that ACD is more of a reflection of the sensitivity of the protection circuit employed by the manufacturer instead of actully delivering power. Maybe this model is actually hampered because of the smaller transformer but their top 3 models, the RX-V7 that you own(ed) could have pushed far more power than the ACD revealed.

Ordinarily I'd agree but the protection circuitry is too sensitive even with 1-2 channels driven as you can see in my graphs. Either their engineering department got too conservative or the heatsink and power supply has been far too compromised for this product. I tend to believe the latter based on what I've seen.

 

[gene]

I think you have to consider the price point. The 860 is at the entry level of Yamaha AVR that comes with preout. If Gene runs the same tests on a Denon AVR-3300 or Marantz SR5011, he may get the same results, due to manufacturers try to save literally $1 or 2 by going with the cheapest OPA, same goes for the DAC, they are cheap but there are cheaper ones.

That's why I always recommend the second level (that offers preouts) such as the AVR-4XXX, SR60XX and RX-A10X0 and up.

According to the manual:
RX-A860 pre out:1V/1.2kohm, Max 1.6V
RX-A1060 Pre out: 1V/470 ohm, Max. 2.0V or more

I like the fact that they do give a little more information, that is, including the maximum and the load impedance for the nominal. Based on Gene's findings, the specs seems like a honest one.

I just finished the exact same tests on the Denon AVR-X3300W. The Denon has a clean 4Vrms output on the preamp and does over 79 watts x 5 ACD. For roughly the same price, the Denon offers much better performance!

 

[3db]

Ordinarily I'd agree but the protection circuitry is too sensitive even with 1-2 channels driven as you can see in my graphs. Either their engineering department got too conservative or the heatsink and power supply has been far too compromised for this product. I tend to believe the latter based on what I've seen.

On this particular model, I tend to agree with you and have stated that. Especially since you compared it to an older model.

 

[gene]

Really? Thought they were all interchangeable I'm sure a company that makes some of the finest keyboards know a little about hifi.

I have a Yamaha Clavinova CLP-340 and feel it is one of the finest sounding digital pianos regardless of price.

 

[RichB]

I wish you could buy a preamp version of this product with capable preamp outputs for the same price.

- Rich

 

[gene]

Guys;

It is interesting to note that the Denon AVR-X3300W is capable of doing full bandwidth power sweeps without either shutting down or going into purposeful clipping. This is what happens when you try to cram so much tech into a small budgeted product. Both Denon and Yamaha units have a lot of protection built in to ensure they don't overheat or self destruct. As a result, they don't look to great on the test bench. Incidentally, this fact will be missed in the print mags that only test at 1kHz.

Update: I was able to run full bandwidth continuous sweeps test for 2CH on the Denon by adjusting the sweep time to avoid tripping the protection circuits. These receivers are getting trickier to measure with all their current limiting

 

[hk2000]

Yamaha as well as other manufacturers have been cutting corners on their receivers' power for years now (Yamaha more aggressively than others, I believe), think Gene or someone else from Audioholics did an article on this several years ago. If you notice, people who are jumping in to defend Yamaha are those who have Yamaha receivers in their system coming up with all sorts of assumptions and qualifications to support their defense. I believe the best options as has always been, is separate pre-pro/ amp.

 

[Verdinut]

I wish you could buy a preamp version of this product with capable preamp outputs for the same price.

- Rich

And that from other brands as well!

 

[PENG]

The AP terminates into a high impedance (50k if I remember correctly).

That's high enough to take away any excuse of the RX-A860. Hopefully the higher models from the 1060 up can do 2V or better at very low distortions like the older models.

 

[PENG]

Yamaha as well as other manufacturers have been cutting corners on their receivers' power for years now (Yamaha more aggressively than others, I believe), think Gene or someone else from Audioholics did an article on this several years ago. If you notice, people who are jumping in to defend Yamaha are those who have Yamaha receivers in their system coming up with all sorts of assumptions and qualifications to support their defense. I believe the best options as has always been, is separate pre-pro/ amp.

I don't think anyone is defending them but simply saying some older models and likely even the newer higher end models may not have this issue. I don't own any Yamaha AVR at this point but I certainly am interested in the RX-A3060.

 

[PENG]

I just finished the exact same tests on the Denon AVR-X3300W. The Denon has a clean 4Vrms output on the preamp and does over 79 watts x 5 ACD. For roughly the same price, the Denon offers much better performance!

I have been recommending the AVR-X4200W to anyone who asked what AVR to buy, whenever it's price get close to $799. Knowing that its little brother performs well on the bench is encouraging.

 

[gene]

Yamaha as well as other manufacturers have been cutting corners on their receivers' power for years now (Yamaha more aggressively than others, I believe), think Gene or someone else from Audioholics did an article on this several years ago. If you notice, people who are jumping in to defend Yamaha are those who have Yamaha receivers in their system coming up with all sorts of assumptions and qualifications to support their defense. I believe the best options as has always been, is separate pre-pro/ amp.

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/trading

 

[Verdinut]

I don't think anyone is defending them but simply saying some older models and likely even the newer higher end models may not have this issue. I don't own any Yamaha AVR at this point but I certainly am interested in the RX-A3060.

As Gene was saying, the top of the line Yamaha's don't have that ACD power issue and I agree in that they most likely are a good recommendation along with the Denon and the Marantz flagship models.

However, if someone is planning the purchase of a mid-price or lower price unit, I think that he would be well advised to consider another brand, notably Marantz and Denon. This suggestion is definitely more appropriate if the prospective buyer wants to use the receiver to view action and science fiction films, where most of the power demand is from the center channel and surround speakers, and not from the front left and right channels. An example would be an explosion at the back, where peaks could represent a 20 dB increase and maybe more, which means a demand of at least 100 times more power output.

 

[Verdinut]

I have been recommending the AVR-X4200W to anyone who asked what AVR to buy, whenever it's price get close to $799. Knowing that its little brother performs well on the bench is encouraging.

Other good options would be the Marantz SR5011 or SR5010. They are slightly more expensive and well built as well. They don't have the ACD problem found with some Yamaha's as we know.

 

[SSJBen]

I'd like to say something about this review and shed some light regarding it.

I live in Malaysia and I've visited the Yamaha factory twice. I've see the lines on how they manufacture their products and to be really frank with you guys; they aren't doing anything that is "lazy" when it comes to the receivers. They are given a design blueprint, they just adhere to it.

Now, the RX-A860 is actually just a RX-v781 in disguise. It's a two-fold marketing purpose as the v781 isn't sold globally for whatever reasons. A lot of people do not know this as evident in the sales of the A8xx models in the past few years. To put this more in perspective, think of the A860 as the "uncut" version of the top "v" series line from Yamaha. Every model below that has a downgrade one way or another to fit into lower price points.

How do I know this? 2 ways.

1) The RXA-7xx and A8xx models are manufactured on the same manufacturing line as the V-series models. In comparison, the RX-A10xx, 20xx and 30xx models are built on a different line. The pre/pro CX5xxx is also built on another different line.

2) Compare the internals of the RX8xx model and a RX-V7xx model, they are damn near IDENTICAL.


To go back to the review, yes the "Aventage" moniker has been flawed for a while now. Yamaha continues to use the Aventage marketing blurb on the A8xx and A7xx models on their product page. This to me, is technically fake advertising considering that they're not using the same marketing talk on the v7xx and v6xx models despite having the same internal hardware.

That said, while the A860's performance is lackluster in comparison to its direct competitors like the X3300w or 5011, there is at least one silver lining; reliability.

So yeah, I hope that opens a small can of worms regarding how and why the A860 exists.

 

[3db]

As Gene was saying, the top of the line Yamaha's don't have that ACD power issue and I agree in that they most likely are a good recommendation along with the Denon and the Marantz flagship models.

However, if someone is planning the purchase of a mid-price or lower price unit, I think that he would be well advised to consider another brand, notably Marantz and Denon. This suggestion is definitely more appropriate if the prospective buyer wants to use the receiver to view action and science fiction films, where most of the power demand is from the center channel and surround speakers, and not from the front left and right channels. An example would be an explosion at the back, where peaks could represent a 20 dB increase and maybe more, which means a demand of at least 100 times more power output.

Wrong. Bass explosions are handled mostly by the sub and 20 dB + peaks are very aggressive. I don't have a problem with you disliking this particular unit. However, stop the BS, get your facts straight and stop painting all Yamaha models with the same brush.

 

[3db]

Yamaha as well as other manufacturers have been cutting corners on their receivers' power for years now (Yamaha more aggressively than others, I believe), think Gene or someone else from Audioholics did an article on this several years ago. If you notice, people who are jumping in to defend Yamaha are those who have Yamaha receivers in their system coming up with all sorts of assumptions and qualifications to support their defense. I believe the best options as has always been, is separate pre-pro/ amp.

Where is your proof or is this just speculative conjecture on your part? I don't how you could possibly reach that conclusion after reading all the stellar tests results here at Audioholics on past receivers?