Yamaha Receiver Question - Underpowering speakers?

[mtrycrafts]

Well I suppose this topic has migrated away from being an amplifier question to one concerning speakers and hence, probably belongs in the suitable location in this forum, but switching the speakers did highlight one obvious fact: that my room acoustics leave an awful lot to be desired.

I did one better - after switching the center with the left front speaker, I disconnected it and hooked it up to another regular stereo system of known good quality, and it sounded terrific. I then made an extra long speaker cable, hooked it back up to my HT setup and experiemented by moving it around several locations in my room.

What I found was that there seems to be a resonant frequency issue somewhere in the 300Hz range (I'm estimating) where I normally place the center channel - and I can't figure out how to minimize the effect. My room layout really only leaves one configuration option for a standard HT setup, so perhaps some good acoustic damping material would do the trick - I don't know.

Yes, it drifted from the amp to speakers as that is where your issues are most likely.
Did that left speaker help with dialogue? Can you check your center speaker with dialogue in that other setup?
You could experiment with acoustic panels behind the system but it would be best to map the issues first with a good frequency plot but now you are getting into it pretty deep.
Not sure but does that receiver have any EQ features and perhaps an auto EQ?

 

[Halon451]

What is has is a center channel EQ - with five frequencies represented as follows:
100Hz
300Hz
1kHz
10Khz
15Khz? (Not sure about the last one... I'm not at home to check right now)

Then it has a general bass/treble adjustment for the front mains.

I really don't mind getting into it as deep as need be - I guess it's what seperates those of us from the average consumer; we're always driven to acheive the best quality within a given affordable price range, which sadly in my case isn't where I would really like it to be, dollar-wise.

I can tell you my wife has grown frustrated already - as there was a point long ago during this process where she simply said, "I can't hear any difference anymore, it sounds good to me," where my own ears are ever more focused on dialing into these frequency issues, or colorations, or what have you. It's a frustrating but fun process, and she knows that I come from a technical/engineering background so I like to get into the very nitty gritty details of everything I get into.

Either way, the speaker issue is one matter - whether or not the receiver is at fault for any of the discrepencies I've mentioned above is another. From what I understand - usually it's the speakers to blame, room acoustics, layout, placement, etc. Like I said, I don't have the ideal listening environment to begin with, and I think that now that I have better speakers, it is actually highlighting these issues a bit more.

Could such a statement hold true?

 

[mtrycrafts]

What is has is a center channel EQ - with five frequencies represented as follows:
100Hz
300Hz
1kHz
10Khz
15Khz? (Not sure about the last one... I'm not at home to check right now)

Then it has a general bass/treble adjustment for the front mains.

I really don't mind getting into it as deep as need be - I guess it's what seperates those of us from the average consumer; we're always driven to acheive the best quality within a given affordable price range, which sadly in my case isn't where I would really like it to be, dollar-wise.

I can tell you my wife has grown frustrated already - as there was a point long ago during this process where she simply said, "I can't hear any difference anymore, it sounds good to me," where my own ears are ever more focused on dialing into these frequency issues, or colorations, or what have you. It's a frustrating but fun process, and she knows that I come from a technical/engineering background so I like to get into the very nitty gritty details of everything I get into.

Either way, the speaker issue is one matter - whether or not the receiver is at fault for any of the discrepencies I've mentioned above is another. From what I understand - usually it's the speakers to blame, room acoustics, layout, placement, etc. Like I said, I don't have the ideal listening environment to begin with, and I think that now that I have better speakers, it is actually highlighting these issues a bit more.

Could such a statement hold true?

Yes, your room acoustics can impart an undesired result.
I would buy a Radio Shack SPL meter, analog, and a test disc with at least 1/3 octave tones. Rives CD2 is one that has both flat signals in which case you have to compensate for the RS meter's curve and RS compensated signals where you just read it straight off the meter, no additional compensation needed. This may be advertised here.

Get this, a stand for the meter, like a camera tripod to place the meter at the listening place and do the frequency response at the listening place for each of the speakers, on a log graph paper. Make sure the wife is away, or this will really get her up in a tree

Than, you can better see if you have that dip. You need to make sure to isolate each channel and may need to disconnect the speakers not tested.
Then, if you do have a spike, the EQ can cut it. I would not boos anything too much, rather do the cutting and then just turn up the volume afterward.

 

[Halon451]

I do have the Radioshack digital SPL meter already, which I've used thus far to establish level balance in the system.

Unfortunately, for what I figured I need to do - the HT Tune up disc only provides a gradual low frequency sweep that can make such detection rather difficult if not impossible with a basic SPL meter. So here's what I found:

Lo and behold, there are a few PC based tone generators out there available for download. I do have a dedicated computer tied into this system, such that I can basically use the HT system as a network computer in my house if I choose to - watching downloaded movie content, music, whatever.

This freeware is capable of generating test tones in a very wide variety of frequencies, in sine waves, square waves, sawtooth, pink noise, white noise, you name it. Plus it has the added benefit of allowing you to set a specific frequency and run a continuous tone, rather than a sweeping.

I plan to use this to establish test tones at each of the frequency intervals that my receiver supports an EQ function for, and then down below that to the level that my subwoofer picks up and measure it all with the SPL meter, and plot it as such (like you suggested).

My thinking is that it should make it clear just where in the spectrum I'm losing frequency response, or where it is possible interference (additive or otherwise). I should then be able to really dial into the proper EQ and crossover settings to allow a smooth transition from the mid-range frequencies down to the lowest limit my sub can produce (which according to the specs is around 20Hz.

I'm excited - I really can't wait to get home and try this sucker out.

 

[Halon451]

By the way - speaking of cutting a specific frequency - as I had suspected before about there being a problem in the 300Hz range; I turned the 300Hz setting down to the lowest level it can go, and it actually really improved the overall sound from that stubborn center channel!

I ain't done tweaking yet though!

 

[Halon451]

Here's the link to the Test Tone Generator download site: I mis-spoke, it's not actually freeware, but the $32 price sure as heck beats the couple hundred or more you might pay for a standalone tone generator. I've used Extron test signal generators before that were in excess of a couple thousand dollars apiece. I guess the true test will be when I actually use the program and see how well it performs for my needs.

Tell me what you think, if you don't mind.

http://shareit1.element5.com/product.html?productid=151791

 

[mtrycrafts]

Here's the link to the Test Tone Generator download site: I mis-spoke, it's not actually freeware, but the $32 price sure as heck beats the couple hundred or more you might pay for a standalone tone generator. I've used Extron test signal generators before that were in excess of a couple thousand dollars apiece. I guess the true test will be when I actually use the program and see how well it performs for my needs.

Tell me what you think, if you don't mind.

http://shareit1.element5.com/product.html?productid=151791

I haven't used computer software for audio testing I prefer the old fashion way with CDs. The Rives is 1/3 octave and would test your hole bandwidth for issues. There is another source for a 1Hz sine wave CD from 10Hz to 99 Hz for the sub check as a 1/3 for it is just too broad.

There may be other sources for test tones and free downloads. I think WmAx or MDS may have suggestions as there is even a test analyzer to download free or almost free.
Check this out, I found my link:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/

 

[Halon451]

I checked out the link you had - now that looks like a useful piece of software! Thanks! I guess it seems to do what the other cannot do, which is measure and detect room modes and help with the acoustics (which is of course a large part of my headache right now)

Either way, I used the Test Tone Generator software last night. I didn't get around to checking the rolloff frequency of each of my speakers individually, but I did check the center along all five frequency bands represented with the RX EQ.

Without having to plot anything, using a logarithmic sine wave function at each of the specified frequencies as follows: 100Hz, 300Hz, 1KHz, 3KHz, and 10kHz - one thing immediately stood out and totally confirmed my suspicions that something was amiss around the 300Hz range. The SPL meter nearly jumped two ranges when I set the generator for 300Hz and turned it on. Oh, I also disconnected every other speaker but the center channel, and turned the sub off, so only the center was providing sound.

Every other frequency band I tested, registered at fairly equivalent levels on the meter, save for the 10kHz, which was also a bit high. So, after adjusting the EQ to even out the sound level in all frequencies, I hooked the rest of the system back up, turned on a normal audio source (which in this case was my digital cable box), and boy - I have to say, what a difference!

It really cleaned up the coloration of the center quite a bit, but it's still not perfect (in the world of audiophilism, is there any such thing as perfect?).

My next step was going to be to measure and plot each speaker's lower rolloff frequency to the -3dB point, take the highest measurement and use that to set my RX crossover setting once and for all.

Once that is done, all that's left to worry about is room acoustics and placement, knowing that I have my settings dialed in to their optimum points.

Granted, I'm by no means an audio engineer - just a technically inclined person with a newfound thrill and obsession. Do you think this is a logical way to go about it?

I would really like to utilize this program you showed me - that looks like a heck of a lot of fun!

 

[mtrycrafts]

I checked out the link you had - now that looks like a useful piece of software! Thanks! I guess it seems to do what the other cannot do, which is measure and detect room modes and help with the acoustics (which is of course a large part of my headache right now)

Either way, I used the Test Tone Generator software last night. I didn't get around to checking the rolloff frequency of each of my speakers individually, but I did check the center along all five frequency bands represented with the RX EQ.

Without having to plot anything, using a logarithmic sine wave function at each of the specified frequencies as follows: 100Hz, 300Hz, 1KHz, 3KHz, and 10kHz - one thing immediately stood out and totally confirmed my suspicions that something was amiss around the 300Hz range. The SPL meter nearly jumped two ranges when I set the generator for 300Hz and turned it on. Oh, I also disconnected every other speaker but the center channel, and turned the sub off, so only the center was providing sound.

Every other frequency band I tested, registered at fairly equivalent levels on the meter, save for the 10kHz, which was also a bit high. So, after adjusting the EQ to even out the sound level in all frequencies, I hooked the rest of the system back up, turned on a normal audio source (which in this case was my digital cable box), and boy - I have to say, what a difference!

It really cleaned up the coloration of the center quite a bit, but it's still not perfect (in the world of audiophilism, is there any such thing as perfect?).

My next step was going to be to measure and plot each speaker's lower rolloff frequency to the -3dB point, take the highest measurement and use that to set my RX crossover setting once and for all.

Once that is done, all that's left to worry about is room acoustics and placement, knowing that I have my settings dialed in to their optimum points.

Granted, I'm by no means an audio engineer - just a technically inclined person with a newfound thrill and obsession. Do you think this is a logical way to go about it?

I would really like to utilize this program you showed me - that looks like a heck of a lot of fun!

Just think what you can find out if you plotted other frequencies at the 1/3 octave level even if you don't have built in EQ capability beyond a few fixed frequencies.
This is why cables cannot help no matter what people try to say
Too bad you don't have a pre out amp in on the receiver as then you can get some pretty good EQ out there for not much and really bring this to flat fr.

You will have to play with that program I linked for you as you will need some mic and maybe other stuff, not sure.
Have fun and enjoy.

 

[Halon451]

Yeah, it looks like at the very least I'm going to have to get an external soundcard for my laptop that will allow interface between the SPL meter and the application as it pretty explicitly stated the the mic input on the computer should not be used.

I did plot the roll-off for all five channels yesterday - not individually at this time, just without the sub as a means of getting an idea as to where the rest of the speaker system in general starts to fall away. It happened somewhere around the 80 Hz region, but oddly enough - when I set the AVR crossover to 90 Hz, which is the next step increment higher - I don't get as much low end response from the system as when I up it to 120, or 160 Hz.

Something's not quite right and I'm not understanding. The measurements seemed pretty accurate - the SPL meter was on a tripod, as suggested, and there were no other ambient noises to interfere with the measurements.

Acoustics, I presume? Oh, how nice it would be to have an EQ with that much capability...

 

[mtrycrafts]

Acoustics, I presume? Oh, how nice it would be to have an EQ with that much capability...

The Behringer line of EQs are nice but you need amp in or external amps

 

[Halon451]

Looks like I'm stuck with what I've got. At least for now. I wish I could have found a nice AVR with less than halfthe bells and whistles my Yamaha has, because I don't even use most of that processing stuff anyway. The rest could have gone to making the amplification better.

DD or DTS for DVD's - Pro Logic and PL II for regular TV. That's about all I need.

 

[PENG]

Looks like I'm stuck with what I've got. At least for now. I wish I could have found a nice AVR with less than halfthe bells and whistles my Yamaha has, because I don't even use most of that processing stuff anyway. The rest could have gone to making the amplification better.

DD or DTS for DVD's - Pro Logic and PL II for regular TV. That's about all I need.

If your goal is better sound you may want to get some nicer speakers first. Can you borrow a pair from friends just to see if it make a difference? If you still find your 361 lacking, then go from there. In most cases, different speakers sound quite differently. A $5000 McIntosh is not going to make a $500/pair speakers sound significantly better or different than a $500 Yamaha or Harman Kardon would. As I mentioned before I believe people natually tend to focus more on the electronics because there are buttons and dials to play with.. If they don't sound good, we can say they don't have enough power, just add amps etc. With speakers, you can't do anything to them other than relocating them for better room acoustics.

 

[Halon451]

If your goal is better sound you may want to get some nicer speakers first. Can you borrow a pair from friends just to see if it make a difference? If you still find your 361 lacking, then go from there. In most cases, different speakers sound quite differently. A $5000 McIntosh is not going to make a $500/pair speakers sound significantly better or different than a $500 Yamaha or Harman Kardon would. As I mentioned before I believe people natually tend to focus more on the electronics because there are buttons and dials to play with.. If they don't sound good, we can say they don't have enough power, just add amps etc. With speakers, you can't do anything to them other than relocating them for better room acoustics.

I've been upgrading to JBL Venue Series (right now, I'm using JBL Venue Balcony wall mounts for the surrounds, and a JBL Center Channel speaker - I plan to purchase the JBL Venue Stadium 8" 3-way floorstanders in the next month or so - this is currently being covered in another thread - so I want to avoid being redundant across multiple topics, but any thoughts you have on this particular setup would be greatly appreciated.