Yamaha Debuts RX-Z9 at CEDIA 2003

gene · Sep 5, 2003

Hi Ray;

Yamaha as well as most receiver vendors state 6 ohm minimum to receive UL approval regarding haet dissipation limits, power consumption, etc.  I can assure you that the Z9 will have no troubles driving reasonably efficient 4 ohm loads.  The RX-Z1 and Denon AVR-5803 drove all of my RBH 4 ohm speakers to ear bleeding (>100dB SPL) in my 15x18 living room without breaking a sweet.

As for DVI switching, right now the standard is not fully set, and I am sure Yamaha and others will have some sort of upgradeability path.

PaulF · Sep 5, 2003

The new Panasonic Plasma displays have three I/O slots with plug and play interface modules. Finally someone got it right.

DVI is definitely a step in the right direction but at this point, iif it's going to be hard wired, they should go straight to HDMI.

Paul

RLA · Sep 6, 2003

Hi
I too have run 4 ohm speakers off the 3090,A-1 and RXZ-1
with no trouble I agree that I think Yamaha rates its speaker outputs from 6-8 ohms to CYA   I think if the new Yamaha
receiver had DVI Switching it would be a giant killer
I dont think that the new receiver would be upgradeable
It does not appear to have a slot based chassis. There will be a workaround at CEDIA there are switchers being shown for
Multi DVI connection  If you have not had the chance to see
a direct DVI connection and your current monitor has the DVI connector you can see it in all its glory with a current $200
DVD player  some are even lucky enough to get 1:to1: pixel mapping via DVI connection

gene · Sep 7, 2003

Ray;

I don't understand.  Most of the new DVI capable players currently available do not have this interface active since the standard has not been fully set.  How are you seeing this?

RLA · Sep 7, 2003

Hi
There are 2 current players that have there DVI output enabled for 1080i or 720p  they are The Samsung 931 @$230
and the Bravo D-1 @ $180    Remember this is a direct digital
connection and is not limited to 480p as is the component
outputs are  there is however a tweek for 1080i out of one of the players via the component output ok Ive said enough

The benefits can only be seen with the use of high resolution
displays with these DVI players. There were also several
DVI Players shown at CEDIA  that will ship soon

Audioholics · Sep 8, 2003

This is welcome news. To see DVD players with DVI connectors debuting at such a low price is a very good sign of what's to come...

Guest · Sep 10, 2003

I'm hearing some pretty experienced evaluations of the RX-Z9 over at AVS forum.

Consensus is fairly poor as a Flagship:

1) Z9 implements a fairly useless automatic parametric EQ feature (63Hz is the lowest setting) that cannot be manually accesssed. This means it's not really useful for taming the bass mode peaks found in most HT rooms.

2) Provides no DVI switching for all those DirectTV, cable boxes, and TVs.

gene · Sep 10, 2003

Bruce;

You can't always believe what you hear on forums. This is especially true for what you hear over at AVS. With the exception of a few, many of the people are misinformed and evaluating a product based on marketing literature that is known to have misprints or inaccurate information.

As for DVI switching, the jury is still out on that. The future of DVI is not certain, the standard is not fully set, could it be people are making a bigger issue of it than it really is? If you have an HD box and TV with DVI you can simply do a direct connect between the two, and use Component video for your OSD and other video sources and enjoy the associated picture enhancing and video up conversion features internal to the Z9.

The RX-Z9 is the worlds first receiver to do digital video up conversion and processing while also incorporating a highly sophisticated room correction feature and an allegedly easy to use GUI interface. Show me another current product that does this.

Alternatively one could consider a more costly dedicated processor in this price range that has none of these features, much less processing power, lesser grade DAC's, less flexibility, a host of firmware bugs, No DVI, no component video upconversion, no sub out in 2CH direct mode, etc.

On the other hand one could choose to buy another brand receiver that sells for around the same price range ($4200), weighs a meager 32lbs (similar weight and chassis size as its corresponding processor that sells for $3500), touts an unrealistic 200wpc x7 and has about 1/10th the feature set and configuration ability, no THX certification, but a lot of pretty non functional yellow lights. Why is it that nobody seems to have a problem with that?

I read the threads on the Z9 at the place you mentioned and all I can say is wait until our evaluation as well as other professional evaluations of this product have been done before passing judgement.

Khellandros66 · Sep 10, 2003

I for one totally agree with Gene. Until there is a set standard on DVI for DVD and HDTV I see absolutely no reason for one. The biggest difference between component video and DVI is that DVI-D (used in home theater) is a digital version of Component, which is basically RGB with the horizontal and vertical syncs mixed with two of the color signals. As for DVI-D not needing processing is BS. In order to even pass a laser emitted (DVD pickup) signal to a compnent you either need to turn it into a electronic signal. Therefore 10/12/13/14bit at 54/108/216MHz Processors will still be needed. Even then LCD, DLP, still end up projecting the image through and old fashioned Edison bulb on steriods. I believe that ther will never be a thing such as true digital, and all DVI-D is bells and whistles.

:|~

Bob

_audiouser_ · Sep 10, 2003

Bruce : 2) Provides no DVI switching for all those DirectTV, cable boxes, and TVs.

I agree with Bruce about the no DVI part.  It should have DVI, DVI is good as many (some very experienced) reviewers have stated.

Why bother with DAC's when your working with a digital source in the first place.

Yamahaluver · Sep 10, 2003

Interesting to see that just for the lack of DVI a wonderful ground breaking piece of equipment gets so much flack, it is funny to see snob brands with questionable performance, noisy amp sections, fake wattage ratings and poor reliability and most likely made by an old relic of the past whose brain cells are in cowebs are glorified by fools who have paid a huge amount of $$$$ and their ratings are based on ego rather than objectivity.

World is indeed a strange place.

BTW: All Yamaha speakers are rated at 6ohms and most of them dip to 3.5ohms at certain frequencies so there should be no worry on the issue of the Z-9's ability to drive a low impedance speakers.

gene · Sep 11, 2003

Audiouser;

I agree with you it would be great to have a direct digital connection from the DVD player to the display. However, the standards are still in a state of flux. Realize this was especially true when the Z9 was on the design table over a year ago.

My argument there is most people currently don't own a DVI enabled source right now. If their HDTV box does have this capability, simply make the direct connect between it and the Display and be done with it. Perhaps they will have two sources with DVI enabled outputs in the next year or so. But that that time, maybe DVI-I or HDMI will be the flavor of the month???

Regardless, the user could add an external video switcher, or wait for an upgrade path. In any event, there are currently no shipping receivers/processors with DVI interfaces that also offer Room Correction and THX Ultra2 certification. You could play the waiting game indefinitely while each new standard or format gets released, or you could buy an existing product now that meets most of your needs and enjoy it.

Yes Yamahaluver, I agree with your points, some of the exotic brands often seem free of these types of criticism. Their lack of technology and function and in many cases performance, is often masked by subjective statements as "it sounds warm, or its so easy to use..". Go figure.

Guest · Sep 11, 2003

Talk about fake wattage ratings, I think Yamaha's rating of the 2400 at 120 watts into 7 channels is grossly fake.

An observation from a ******* member in
this thread

"I was at Good Guys a few minutes ago checking out the 2400 and I spun it around the check the back ($999, btw).

500W.

What a load of crap they are trying to toss on us. Even assuming that they somehow are getting 75% efficiency out of the receiver (highly doubtful), that still comes to a bit under 55wpc. At a more conservative 50% efficiency, that comes to 36wpc.

Unless there is some magical explanation out there ("oops, we meant to say 1500W&quot

, I will be crossing this one off of the list.

Bill"

gene · Sep 11, 2003

Bruce or Bill?;

It is unfortunate that your lack of understanding power ratings if forcing you to draw wrong conclusions about a product you know little about. The power rating on the back of the receiver is NOT a maximum rating. It is based on a UL rating for average power consumption with all channels driven at a certain percent which I do not know off the top of my head. Yamaha, and most receiver vendors never claimed that all channels driven would deliver the rated power. Whats the point anways, who listens to all channels driven at full power simultaneously?

I suspect based on the power supply used on the 2400 it will deliver full power as claimed for 2 Channels and about 80-90WPC all channels driven. What more would you expect from a $1000 receiver?

Alternatively you could buy a product for far more with an infamous trackdown converter that boasts unrealistic power #'s. What they don't tell you is that these power figures are short lived, especially with all channels driven, and they are at grossly higher distortion and noise levels. However, if thats your cup of tea than go for it. I personally prefer accurate fidelity over sound reinforcement.

Audioholics · Sep 11, 2003

The key here is expectation. One has to analyze what their expections are for $1000.

One also has to be fair and realize that few companies deliver power rating based on all channels driven.

One thing I know for certain, though, is that to completely write off a company's new product offering based on what is mentioned above would be... premature, to say the least. Does the receiver do a good job at its $1000 price point? Does it offer siginificant improvement over its predecessor? Does it sound good and support the newest features people want and can use?

These are questions we'd like to answer by giving the product a thorough review.

Guest · Sep 11, 2003

If all receivers are in the same boat for amplifier ratings then Yamahaluver's "fake comment" about receiver's power ratings other than Yamaha's is just so much fake bull as well.

Actually the point I was trying to make is that Yamaha is bringing out less than Flagship featured products, not worthy of the Flagship moniker.

I'm not saying they're not good products, just not Flagship quality.

gene · Sep 11, 2003

Bruce;

You biases against receivers are clear, as are your biases against Yamaha products in general. However, your argument is silly at best and holds very little water. What do you consider worthy of “Flagship” stature? Should the product have a thicker faceplate, should it come with a fancy little glass shelf to support it, should it have a more catchy name, Should it weigh over 100lbs to satisfy your obsession with power?

The truth of the matter is the Yamaha RX-Z9 is a Flagship product and it does set many industry standards based on the following:

1) YPAO – proprietary room correction
2) Digital Video up-conversion and processing
3) One of the most powerful amplifier sections in a home theater receiver ever! (This was also confirmed by THX). Incidentally to achieve 170wpc RMS, one would need 52V + 10-15V overhead = 67V power supply. The Z9 uses 80V Capacitors on the power supply. Most 170wpc amps use 71V, including the Denon AVR-5803. When I get a service manual for the Z9 I will confirm their rail voltages, but the bottom line is that this receiver will deliver at least 170wpc rms in 2 channels at full bandwidth with ultra low distortion. I suspect it will deliver at least 120wpc all 7CH driven rms continuos based on the huge torrodial transformer. The question is, will your wall outlet be able to supply the juice? This amount of power should satisfy all speaker loads and listening conditions except for maybe those systems that utilize low efficient, low impedance speakers such as ESL’s or for those who demand rock concert level SPL in a large listening area. In that case, the user can simply add an external amp and/or hearing aid.
4) GUI interface –supposedly makes user operation simple with the touch of a joystick like button interface.
5) THX Ultra2 certification and Yamaha HDDSP processing
6) Top of the Line BiCMOS Burr Brown DAC’s (handle DSD)
7) And much more…..

Sounds like a Flagship to me so far, especially since no other receiver or processor on the market offers this feature set.

No product will satisfy every users needs, thankfully so otherwise the vendor would have a monopoly and we would pay through the nose as a result. But it sure as heck looks like the Z9 will cover a wide audience. Will Yamaha offer an upgrade path to DVI/HDMI switching once the standard has been set? We will wait for their statement. In the meantime I am looking forward to reviewing this product and enjoying the sheer dynamics I expect it will deliver on my 4ohm moderately efficient high performance speakers in my medium large living room. I just hope my Aragon amps don’t collect too much dust, especially since they have been sitting idle for so long. …

Khellandros66 · Sep 11, 2003

Bruce,

I have a feeling that you were one of those bratty kids in the Wal-Mart always screaming "I WANNA COOKIE, I WANNA SUPERMAN TOY, I WANNA...." Is this what you were like as a child cause sure seems like it. And when someone got a new and better toy or a bigger cookie you whined even more. I have a feeling that that you are not welcome in many homes either. If I were the gene I would boot you from this site permanetly, because you whine too much. Anyone whom thinks its great to have an amp that plays at earbleeding levels is fine by me, it then makes (you) less attractive cause you're deaf, therefore less chance of having kids, and further cleansing the genepool.

:|~

Bob

I apologize to any whom have relatives or whom are married to anyone that is/are deaf.  I

_audiouser_ · Sep 11, 2003

gene : I suspect based on the power supply used on the 2400 it will deliver full power as claimed for 2 Channels and about 80-90WPC all channels driven. What more would you expect from a $1000 receiver?

Gene,

To me if the unit has a big freeking honking !!!!! 120 watts x 7 !!!!!!!! sticker on in bright colors (like most do).  I should expect it to do 120 watts x 7, period.

If it can't do 120 x 7 it should read 65 or 78 or whatever it does.

I know that's not how it is, but that is how it should be.

It really has nothing to with cost, and everything to do with honesty.  I'd feel better buying from Yamaha if they where up front.  If you can't trust their specs, whats the point of them, and then what else have you been lied to about.

Even the sales flunky in best buy knows HK rates there amps the best of all the major players.

Yamahaluver · Sep 11, 2003

Bruce : If all receivers are in the same boat for amplifier ratings then Yamahaluver's "fake comment" about receiver's power ratings other than Yamaha's is just so much fake bull as well.

Actually the point I was trying to make is that Yamaha is bringing out less than Flagship featured products, not worthy of the Flagship moniker.

I'm not saying they're not good products, just not Flagship quality.

It is you who is under a deception as what you use is pure bullcrap. It is a hyped product designed by a relic whose brain cells seem to be on a vacation. How can you even talk about flagship when your mind is clouded with bias and unclear thoughts. You are certainly not in a position to comment on what you dont even own and I doubt can afford. If you owned a DSP-AZ1 or did have the capacity to buy a Z9 like Gene and myself, you would find out what you have been missing so far and maybe the cowebs would lift off your moldy brain.

The Z-9 is groundbreaking and compared to the crap from Lexicon and Parasound it is far superior.The Lexicon gets blown to pieces compared to the Yamaha's far superior and musical DSP.

Yamaha Debuts RX-Z9 at CEDIA 2003

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