Yamaha CX-A5200 and MX-A5200

KEW

KEW

Audioholic Warlord
Also, I would respectfully ask that you be more careful with your edits when quoting others.
You edited my statement to read:
There is something more happening that is not reflected on the FR...using AutoEQ with an App like D&M has to control how the AutoEQ is applied combined with PEQ is the preferable system..
I would not make that statement!
1) I do not have a basis for claiming to know whether or not there is something happening that is not reflected in the FR chart.
2) I think the determination of whether PEQ or GEQ is preferable depends on whether the user will take measurements!

My actual statement was (I underlined words you omitted which change the meaning of my statements):
I believe most people who argue against using AutoEQ don't dispute that it yields a flatter frequency response (because it almost always does). They argue that there is something more happening that is not reflected on the FR chart. If there is truth to this, keeping it in the lower frequencies and essentially having pure direct above the chosen frequency avoids these artifacts in the regions of our most sensitive hearing while allowing Auto EQ to address the room's influence on bass.
That is why I think using AutoEQ with an App like D&M has to control how the AutoEQ is applied combined with PEQ (if you will be taking measurements) or GEQ (if you won't) is the preferable system for performing setup!
Thank you!
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Also, I would respectfully ask that you be more careful with your edits when quoting others.
You edited my statement to read:

I would not make that statement!
1) I do not have a basis for claiming to know whether or not there is something happening that is not reflected in the FR chart.
2) I think the determination of whether PEQ or GEQ is preferable depends on whether the user will take measurements!

My actual statement was (I underlined words you omitted which change the meaning of my statements):


Thank you!
Sorry, Kurt!

I don’t know why I have to make things more difficult. I should simply quote the entire posts, which is 100% easier than changing them and inadvertently changing the contexts/contents/meanings. :D
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Warlord
Sorry, Kurt!

I don’t know why I have to make things more difficult. I should simply quote the entire posts, which is 100% easier than changing them and inadvertently changing the contexts/contents/meanings. :D
No worries!
Thanks!
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I was thinking more in terms of partially (below ~250Hz) run Auto-EQ, then use manual EQ to obtain any specific "house curve" (or flat response) you may want.
Whether PEQ or GEQ is desirable depends mainly on whether the user intends to use REW or another measurement system (in order to know what parameters to apply for PEQ).
Oh yeah, I meant to say this, but forgot. Better a little late than never. :D

After you run 20-200Hz-Auto-EQ on the DM, you still can't manually EQ the subs if you have a Denon/Marantz. You can only manually Graphic-EQ the main speakers, but not the subwoofers at all.

With the Yamaha, you can always manually PEQ the subwoofers.

I don't know if Onkyo, Pioneer, and Sony allow manual EQ of the subs.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
Oh yeah, I meant to say this, but forgot. Better a little late than never. :D

After you run 20-200Hz-Auto-EQ on the DM, you still can't manually EQ the subs if you have a Denon/Marantz. You can only manually Graphic-EQ the main speakers, but not the subwoofers at all.

With the Yamaha, you can always manually PEQ the subwoofers.

I don't know if Onkyo, Pioneer, and Sony allow manual EQ of the subs.
I would not even use the graphic EQ and if it wasn't there I wouldn't miss it at all. Before I have the Editor App, I would manually EQ the sub using the EQ features of the sub, and it worked very well. With the App, one can just modify the target curve for that range, then verify it with REW, then change then modify the curve again, verify with REW again, after a few times, the actual could get quite close to the target curve.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Got answer about YPAO filters:

“Thanks for your email, and sorry for the delayed reply. It took some time for me to get this information.

I have confirmed that our receivers use IIR filters in YPAO.”
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Warlord
Got answer about YPAO filters:

“Thanks for your email, and sorry for the delayed reply. It took some time for me to get this information.

I have confirmed that our receivers use IIR filters in YPAO.”
It has been long enough, that all I remember was that FIR is better, but I don't remember why or if it was really of any consequence.
@PENG , how about a quick review on EQ filters?
TIA!
 
P

poleepkwa

Audioholic Intern
This will explain why they can run YPAO with their DSP ontop of Atmos, since the IIR is much less processor intensive that FIR. I wonder if the R.S.C. part uses FIR filters though, and maybe that is why it is not user adjustable?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
It has been long enough, that all I remember was that FIR is better, but I don't remember why or if it was really of any consequence.
@PENG , how about a quick review on EQ filters?
TIA!
I am no expert in anything, but I do read a lot and due to my EE background I probably can understand technical articles that include somewhat advanced math contents a little better than the average audio hobbyist. So it is better if you read the articles linked below yourself. In this case I guess I guessed right about Yamaha using IIR only because I already know their YPAO is PEQ based, and PEQ is sort of IIR.

The Siemens article is quite comprehensive, I highly recommend you and @AcuDefTechGuy read the whole article as I know both of you have the technical background to understand most if not all of the math and control theory included.. Dirac Live has a very detailed article of this topic too, but I prefer the Siemens and minidsp's because I thought they are in a non bias position, neither one has a horse in the race (Dirac Live has two:D).

Siemens_FIRVsIIR

minidsp_FIRVsIIR

The summary diagram (fig. 8) in the Siemens article below is for those who just want a quick answer and have no time, or interest to read lengthy technical articles.


1570798095649.png
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Personally, I still believe that if you must have Auto-EQ (20Hz-200Hz or 20Hz-20kHz), then get XT32 + $20 App, Dirac, Trinnov, or ARC.

If you must have Auto-EQ + Manual PEQ, then get Dirac, Trinnov, or ARC.

If you don't care for Auto-EQ and/or if you want just Manual Parametric EQ for speakers and/or subwoofers, then get the Yamaha.

The general consensus is that FIR is better than IIR ---- although some people still like YPAO (Gene personally went from Audyssey XT32-PRO to YPAO + PEQ in his current system).
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
Personally, I still believe that if you must have Auto-EQ (20Hz-200Hz or 20Hz-20kHz),then get XT32 + $20 App, Dirac, Trinnov, or ARC.

If you must have Auto-EQ + Manual PEQ, then get Dirac, Trinnov, or ARC.

If you don't care for Auto-EQ and/or if you want just Manual Parametric EQ for speakers and/or subwoofers, then get the Yamaha.

The general consensus is that FIR is better than IIR ---- although some people still like YPAO (Gene personally went from Audyssey XT32-PRO to YPAO + PEQ in his current system).
Imo for most home users, the latest YPAO version (if used with manual PEQ) such as the one in more recent RX-A and CX-A series is likely a better DRC system than Audyssey XT32 without the Editor App. The fact is, without the App, XT32 can do a good job for the low range but it is a hit and miss thing for above 500-600 Hz based on my own experience.

I started beta testing Dirac Live, it is too early for me to say much, but my initial experience seem to indicate Dirac Live does a decent job with the frequencies above Schroeder's.

By the way, Anthem ARC is also IIR based. With the App, I would give Audyssey the edge based on things I read only, as I have no experienced with AARC.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Imo for most home users, the latest YPAO version (if used with manual PEQ) such as the one in more recent RX-A and CX-A series is likely a better DRC system than Audyssey XT32 without the Editor App. The fact is, without the App, XT32 can do a good job for the low range but it is a hit and miss thing for above 500-600 Hz based on my own experience.

I started beta testing Dirac Live, it is too early for me to say much, but my initial experience seem to indicate Dirac Live does a decent job with the frequencies above Schroeder's.

By the way, Anthem ARC is also IIR based. With the App, I would give Audyssey the edge based on things I read only, as I have no experienced with AARC.
Oh, so Audyssey, Dirac, and Trinnov are FIR, while Anthem-ARC and Yamaha-YPAO are IIR.

I lost just a little bit of respect for both Yamaha and Anthem right there --- just like I lost a little bit of respect for DM for not offering Subwoofer PEQ. Haha. :D

Even though I don't care for Auto-EQ at all, I think that if you offer something, then it needs to be the best. IIR is not the best. Just like GEQ is not the best.

If you use YPAO-without-Manual PEQ, then XT32-without-App is probably better.

On paper, for people who want both FIR-Auto-EQ and Manual-PEQ, Dirac and Trinnov might be the best offerings (assuming products that have Dirac and Trinnov also have Manual PEQ).

But for people who want just FIR-Auto-EQ (and don't care for Manual-PEQ) -- then XT32+Editor is probably just as good as Dirac and Trinnov.

That leaves me with the last group - for people who don't care for FIR-Auto-EQ and/or want just Manual PEQ for speakers and/or subs --- then Anthem and Yamaha are good options. :D
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
Oh, so Audyssey, Dirac, and Trinnov are FIR, while Anthem-ARC and Yamaha-YPAO are IIR.

I lost just a little bit of respect for both Yamaha and Anthem right there --- just like I lost a little bit of respect for DM for not offering Subwoofer PEQ. Haha. :D

Even though I don't care for Auto-EQ at all, I think that if you offer something, then it needs to be the best. IIR is not the best. Just like GEQ is not the best.

If you use YPAO-without-Manual PEQ, then XT32-without-App is probably better.

On paper, for people who want both FIR-Auto-EQ and Manual-PEQ, Dirac and Trinnov might be the best offerings (assuming products that have Dirac and Trinnov also have Manual PEQ).

But for people who want just FIR-Auto-EQ (and don't care for Manual-PEQ) -- then XT32+Editor is probably just as good as Dirac and Trinnov.

That leaves me with the last group - for people who don't care for FIR-Auto-EQ and/or want just Manual PEQ for speakers and/or subs --- then Anthem and Yamaha are good options. :D
Keep in mind FIR needs lots of processing power. That's one reason why many AVRs are limited to 48 kHz if Audyssey (or Dirac) is engaged. Anthem (not AVRs) and Yamaha can do with 96 kHz . Can Yamaha AVRs do 96 kHz YPAO, or like Anthem, only for AVPs?
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Keep in mind FIR needs lots of processing power. That's one reason why many AVRs are limited to 48 kHz if Audyssey (or Dirac) is engaged. Anthem (not AVRs) and Yamaha can do with 96 kHz . Can Yamaha AVRs do 96 kHz YPAO, or like Anthem, only for AVPs?
All Yamaha YPAO (even cheapest AVR) can do 192kHz YPAO. I confirmed that with the Yamaha people.

So Yamaha = 192kHz YPAO, Anthem = 96kHz ARC, and Audyssey/Dirac = 48kHz

Since Anthem is also IIR (like Yamaha) -- what's their excuse for limiting to 96kHz, instead of doing full 192kHz like the cheapest Yamaha AVR? :D
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
All Yamaha YPAO (even cheapest AVR) can do 192kHz YPAO. I confirmed that with the Yamaha people.

So Yamaha = 192kHz YPAO, Anthem = 96kHz ARC, and Audyssey/Dirac = 48kHz

Since Anthem is also IIR (like Yamaha) -- what's their excuse for limiting to 96kHz, instead of doing full 192kHz like the cheapest Yamaha AVR? :D
I am quite sure it's just limited by processing power, their prepros can do it at 96 kHz, just not the MRX AVRs.
 
N

New24K

Audiophyte
I spoke to Yamaha today for a good length of time. Looks like they won't be able to improve the distortion problem I found on the 5200 XLR front preouts. This will have to wait for the next model.

As for the increased Bridged FFT distortion I found on the MX-A5200, they are still looking into it.
So they are just going to continue to sell them like this...?
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
So they are just going to continue to sell them like this...?
With THD of 0.005% at 2Vrms and THD of 0.01% at 4Vrms— yes, they are going to continue to sell them until the CX-A5300 is released and they can get the THD down to 0.001% at 4Vrms. :D

Probably because they figure most amps with 28dB Gain will only need 2Vrms and even if some lower-Gain amps require 4Vrms, they figure THD of 0.01% is inaudible (although not State of the Art numbers).
 
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M

Mikey5478

Audiophyte
I just hooked up my 5200 preamp and I'm at a loss as to why the display no matter what I play through it does not show either DTS or TrueHD? I cycle through the surround modes but nothing.
My other preamp would show what audio content it detected. And I know for a fact the 4k mkv's are DTS and TrueHD because it shows it under system information.
Can someone please help?
 
P

poleepkwa

Audioholic Intern
I just hooked up my 5200 preamp and I'm at a loss as to why the display no matter what I play through it does not show either DTS or TrueHD? I cycle through the surround modes but nothing.
My other preamp would show what audio content it detected. And I know for a fact the 4k mkv's are DTS and TrueHD because it shows it under system information.
Can someone please help?
You use the "info" button on the front-panel. That will cycle through information that it shows.
Page 106 of the users-manual.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Yeah, push that “Info” button once and never touch it again. :D
 

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