Yamaha and THX ultra2

Audioholics · Jul 3, 2003

Guest : If you take a look here

http://www.yamaha.co.jp/english/product/lsi/us/products/audio.html

You can see that Yamaha LSI makes processors for everything Yamaha (go figure). To keep costs down I'm sure the enginering teams would share any applicable process or knowledge of value.

How much this might translate into better consumer grade audio gear I can't really say.

Yes, 'how much' is probably the real issue. From their own statement:

Our audio-system offerings include digital signal interfaces, acoustic control LSIs for amps, 3D-surround LSIs for TVs, and karaoke LSIs designed for great-sounding home entertainment.

...it would appear that they don't do too much cross-talk between the musical instrument division and the home theater division. But those karaoke machines sound killer!

This isn't a big deal - I love Yamaha receivers. I was just pointing out that it is my opinion that when Yamaha talks about its musical instrument division having some kind of influence on its home theater division, it is mostly marketing speak.

Khellandros66 · Jul 24, 2003

Gene,

I recently got to hear a direct compariaon of the RX-Z1 and the AVR 5803. Oh boy, I'd have to see what Yamaha has up their sleeve for a new RX-Z# receiver before I could whole heartedly go with the 5803.  I admit that in pure Dolby and DTS the the 5803 was the winner, but once the Quad/Tri-Field DSP was enabled the RX-Z1 sure gave 5803 a hard run for its money.  The 5803 definitely has more horsepower at 170w x 7.  As for the Pure Direct Mode, I only noticed subtle difference, but not enough to sway my decision, the 5803 was better on most material, but not not all.  It makes me quetion how good of a CD Player the 2900 is compared to the old yet great Denon DCD-1650.  So this is a tough fight.  I anxiously look forward to reading you review.

I now even question as why you need external amps, or have you dropped those too?

~

Bob

gene · Jul 24, 2003

Bob;

I am starting to feel the same way.  With the power these new super receivers are offering, packed with their superior technology over most dedicated pre/pros in their price range and beyond, it is often the case when people employ reasonably efficient speakers, even low impedance ones at that, that one of these super receivers is all one may need for the ultimate home theater and music fidelity impact.

The noise floor on the Denon is certainly the cleanest I have ever heard on any product regardless of price!  The Yamaha was also very very impressive!

I once used to chuckle at the notion of a $4K+ receiver, however, I no longer find it amusing

Khellandros66 · Jul 25, 2003

Gene,

In all honesty about the the only prepro I would ever consider is the Lexicon MC-8, but it really doesn't do much more than the RX-Z1, let alone the 5803.

But like I said above, I would personally wait and see what the new flagship Yamaha has to offer before I'd go with 5803. Although I would get the 5803 over the RX-Z1 anyday, if I had the money that is.

Even though I would dearly miss the Tri/Quad Field DSP

~

Bob

petermwilson · Jul 30, 2003

Hi,
As the owner of an upgraded Denon 5800, I also look forward to the review.

Home Theatre Choice magazine posted these lab results on the 5803.

Manufacturers rated output (20-20khz), 8ohms, 0.05% thd

Measured power output @ 1khz
189.9w (8ohms, 0.18% thd)
308.9w (4ohms, 0.18% thd)

Fidelity Firewall: 183.37w @ 0.04% thd 8ohms
Distortion @50w:0.0021% 8ohms
Frequency Response 20-20khz +-0.14db

Quite frankly these figures are not something I understand very well, all I know is that It drives my 5, 4ohm Totem speakers without breaking a sweat and is barely warm to the touch.

When reading professional reviews on the 5803, the reviewer's opinion was that this reciever could only be surpassed by the "highest end separates"

When I had the upgrade done to my 5800, I hired the Canadian Denon person who does the upgrades to set it up in my HT. (it's a sideline for him)
It gave me a chance voice my opinion of "what I felt" was the stupidity of the Denon Link Denon 9000 dvd/dvd-a combo.

Although he didn't confirm anything, he led me to believe that an upgraded 5800 or an "out of the box" 5803 could be switched to whatever the industry standard for digital handeling of dvd-a and sacd in a heartbeat and the Denon Link was there because they felt they had to provide something on the Flagship although liscencing was still up in the air.

Anyway, although I look forward to Gene's thoughts on the 5803, the simple forsight that Denon had to include 2 sets of analogs shows me that there a couple of steps ahead of many others.

Peter m.

Yamahaluver · Jul 31, 2003

hawke : This isn't a big deal - I love Yamaha receivers. I was just pointing out that it is my opinion that when Yamaha talks about its musical instrument division having some kind of influence on its home theater division, it is mostly marketing speak.

A little correction on this hawke if I may, Yamaha's home audio and pro audio are pretty much connected historically. Their speaker and amp section was created to cater to the pro audio and musical instruments and then channeled to home audio. For instance, Yamaha?s legendary Mr. Nakamura of NS-10 and NS-10M fame came from their electronic organ division and till today most of the engineers working on the design of audio are part or full time musicians. According to Mr. Akira Nakamura, the only reason Yamaha entered the audio field is because of their dissatisfaction with what was then available in the current market. They needed high quality amplifiers and speakers for their electronic organs where tonal purity is of paramount.

Till today, the famous EE engine P series Pro audio amps have quite a lot of similarities with their home audio amps and the pro speakers like the MSP-10 incorporate the same design concept and materials used in their higher end home audio speakers. The NS-1000 for example was made for the studio as well as for home audio use. All the Yamaha LSI DSP chips used in their receivers have been ported from their musical organs like Disklavier etc. so you see that Yamaha is one unique company which has extensive musical experience. Till today, it is their access to all the great venues, which enables them to collect relevant data for their DSP HT amps. Yamaha is owned by Sumitomo Group, Japan?s second largest consortium and therefore have access to Elna and Sumitomo Composites which supplies them with materials like beryllium, mica injected polymer and Elna supplies them with high grade capacitors. Sumitomo metals also supplies to NASA and Yamaha's mototrcycle divison as well. Most Yamaha components are in house stuff; therefore the Yamaha units are reasonably priced for the quality offered. The mitered cabinets for top of the line Yamaha NS-HX speakers are made in the same facility in Indonesia where their legendary Pianos are made. Also the spruce used the drivers of the NS-HX series speakers are the same material used in Yamaha pianos.

I don?t know if you have had the chance of hearing Yamaha separates like the NS-1000x speakers and MX amplifiers, they are one of the most musically accurate components in the market. In case of Yamaha, it is no marketing ploy and they are uniquely positioned as a company which makes musical as well as audio equipment.

My apologies for the long post.

Guest · Jul 31, 2003

Why not just purchase a B&K AVR-507 for about $2700 on the internet instead of the Yamaha Z-1

PaulF · Aug 1, 2003

Gene,

Back to your 5803 experience. Do you know if Denon sources this unit from Shanling or whether it is home grown. If it is from Shanling, do you know if they build it to Denon spec. (i.e does feeback on this forum about features translate to the next new model?)

I notice the new Shanling models support HDCD but I kind of thought this was a dying technology, especially since Microsoft bought it.

Thanks

Paul

petermwilson · Aug 1, 2003

Hi Paul,
I'm not sure if HDCD is dying or not but if you go to the hdcd.com site you will find lots of info as well as(if you print it out) 73 pages of discs which have it.

I have 2 audio setups, the smaller one in the living room uses a toshsd5109 as basically a cd player and it has hdcd.

My main HT with an upgraded Denon 5800 is connected to my pc for a couple of reasons. One of those reasons is that Windows Media Player 9 dcodes HDCD. so if you connect the analog from your sound card to any pair of analog ins' in your reciever, you have a hdcd player.

If HDCD decoding is done in your reciever you need a digital connection from your cd transport which probably means it's your dvd player.

The hdcd site has lots of useful info.

Peter m.

Audioholics · Aug 1, 2003

Yes, I deleted some posts. Yes I've said we don't do that... I tried to move them to Steam Vent, but it wouldn't let me do that and keep this topic open. Since there were a couple new "on-topic" posts, I didn't want to lock the thread.

The posts I deleted were so far off-topic trolling that I don't even consider it censorship...(also deleted a good response that made no sense once the flame posts were removed.)

I'm setting up a discussion on trolling in the Steam Vent forum, I suggest anyone interested in some definitions or explanations on what constitutes a flame or trolll go there...

Ok, PLAY BALL!

Yamahaluver · Aug 1, 2003

So back to the original question, do we really need seperate power amplifiers or are we all masochists willing to take on serious 110dB abuse to our ears leading to deafness.

Looking at the Home Theater test of the Denon 5803  receiver should convince the hardest of skeptics that 189W at 1KHz is quite enough for most unless earwax is a major problem.

Guest · Aug 1, 2003

DD and DTS reference volume is 105dB at the listening position. Remember this is measured with the "C" weighting curve which accounts for the Fletcher-Munson curve (the ears sensitivity to frequency) and not the "A" weighted curve (focused on the 1kHz area) which is what is used for measuring SPL levels that are harmfull to the ears.

You also need to remember that SPL levels are reduced rather quickly as the distance increases away from the speaker (by the square of the distance).

With amplification that has enough headroom, listening at reference levels will not cause clipping or distortion. Most receivers fail the headroom issue (it does depend on the speaker being driven and the size of the room).

Judging an amp by it's 1kHz power rating is not the best way to evaluate an amp. The spec is listed this way because the amp simply can't pass this rating throughout the entire frequency bandwidth without clipping or distorting.

IMHO, I would only purchanse an amp (or receiver) with a rating that includes a power rating for the whole bandwidth i.e. 189w @ 20Hz-20kHz all channels driven.

Khellandros66 · Aug 1, 2003

Here's a thought

If you are looking to put together a beasty system without breaking your wallet, why not buy a good $800-1500 receiver and use it as a preamp.  This is what I plan on doing with my RX-V1300, and the purchase a beefier amp from ATI, BK, Lexicon, SimAudio, Rotel, Parasound or Earthquake.  All these amp comapines are proud creators of some of the most ferocious amps no to man, especially Cinenova Grand 5.

Personally I plan on buying the ATI AT1802 and adding 5 more modules as time permits.

~

Bob

PaulF · Aug 1, 2003

Peter,

I didn't know that Microsoft's MP9.0 decoded HDCD but it makes perfect sense. Also never thought about the fact that the bitstream can be passed digitally to the receiver just like PCM, a great attribute.

The best thing about HDCD is that it is fully compatible with existing CD players, my understanding is that they simply ignore the extra encoded information.

This is something that the format inventors often forget like DVD-A. If I buy a DVD-A disc to get the most out of my multichannel home system it doesn't play on my car CD or portable players. Or I can buy SACDs at double the price of a CD.

My PC is in another room from my HT system, but I might just try your suggestion some day.

Thanks,

Paul

Guest · Aug 2, 2003

Yamahaluver : So back to the original question, do we really need seperate power amplifiers or are we all masochists willing to take on serious 110dB abuse to our ears leading to deafness.

Looking at the Home Theater test of the Denon 5803 receiver should convince the hardest of skeptics that 189W at 1KHz is quite enough for most unless earwax is a major problem.

Agreed,  in a standard home with 98 to 99.9 percent of currently available home theater speaker packages, 120 true watts per channel is more than enough.

If you really are looking to fill 8000 plus feet, your probably not going to be looking at a "all in one" receiver in the first place.

About Cinema DSP and THX Ultra2,  it looks like Yamaha has caved in and will have the THX Ultra2 cert for the next gen Flagship, so soon you can have the best of both worlds.  (with 170 watts per channel)

I can't wait for these units to come out.  I'm currious if Yamaha went the full distance and put Ultra2 processing into their own silicon, or if they used a third party.

Guest · Aug 2, 2003

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">in a standard home with 98 to 99.9 percent of currently available home theater speaker packages, 120 true watts per channel is more than enough.
</td></tr></table>
Can't say I really agree with that statement. IMO, you are stretching the facts a bit

1) What do you consider a standard size (ft3) HT room in a home?

2) What do you consider a standard 20-20kHz impedance curve for standard HT speaker?

3) What do you consider a standard amperage output capacity for a standard 120 watt amp?

All of these are interrelated. I don't think you can make a statement with 98 to 99.9 percent reliability about the performance of HT gear in an unknown environment. Of course that's just my opinion.

gene · Aug 2, 2003

Audiouser,

You would be surprised to know that many of the integrated amp sections of the top receivers and the ones to come, simply outperform and outgun many of the low end "Separates" solutions.  I don't want to incriminate any companies per se, but if you look at a $4K receiver and compare it to equivalent priced separates, the receiver certainly becomes a bargain.  Many of the lower end separates amps employ multi biasing schemes to increase efficiency at the expense of noise and linearity, while others actually have around the same or less power supply capability as the super receiver in question.  
When you consider the average power being consumed by an amp in a typical listening environment is in the 10's of watts, assuming the speakers are reasonably efficient (>88dB SPL@1watt) in a reasonable medium to large living room, I agree, a well designed receiver with a solid amp section is all that may be needed, and can sometimes be a better solution to costlier separates.

Wait a few more weeks for my review of the Denon AVR-5803 where I dive further into these topics.

Audioholics · Aug 2, 2003

Gene,

One thing that I'm hoping you can do is find a way to publish the actual power output of the 5803 with all channels driven. It may help in getting manufacturers to publish specs in this manner - something I'd certainly like to see standardized.

Yamahaluver · Aug 2, 2003

Guest : Agreed, in a standard home with 98 to 99.9 percent of currently available home theater speaker packages, 120 true watts per channel is more than enough.

If you really are looking to fill 8000 plus feet, your probably not going to be looking at a "all in one" receiver in the first place.

About Cinema DSP and THX Ultra2, it looks like Yamaha has caved in and will have the THX Ultra2 cert for the next gen Flagship, so soon you can have the best of both worlds. (with 170 watts per channel)

I can't wait for these units to come out. I'm currious if Yamaha went the full distance and put Ultra2 processing into their own silicon, or if they used a third party.

Yamaha going THX was the saddest thing for me too but I am sure in typical Yamaha tradation it would be off the beaten track and I am positive that the Ultra2 proccesing would be done by Yamaha's own chip, also I am sure Yamaha would have something different to offer.

Unless we need permanent deafness, a figure of 120W is more than sufficient for normal circumstances. Not all of us have the priviledge of living in airplane hangars.

One of the reasons most major manufacturers like Denon, Yamaha, Onkyo, Marantz have stopped making their seperates. In case of Marantz and Yamaha, it is a sad plight as their seperate power amplifiers were works of art.

Like you, I too am waiting with baited breath for the new Yamaha units and the chance to see the Audioholics review.

Guest · Aug 2, 2003

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> Unless we need permanent deafness, a figure of 120W is more than sufficient for normal circumstances. Not all of us have the priviledge of living in airplane hangars</td></tr></table>

I must say this gave me the biggest laugh I've had all day, LOL

I hope no one takes that statement seriously.  

Yamaha and THX ultra2

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